Sulphur content and petrol

[Zyrofillica]

An interesting article on sulpur content and petrol.

 

http://www.med.govt.nz/templates/Multipage...e____10382.aspx

 

Since japan uses low sulpur content petrols and a substantial number of cars are direct JDM imports, how would our higher sulphur content petrol affect the engine's performance and engine life? Any body here in the oil refining industry? What is the sulphur content of 98, 95 and 92 petrols sold locally? Is there a marked difference?

 

for example, in japan, my ride is required to use 100 RON and low sulphur content petrol (50 ppm) but apparently was detuned by C&C to use 95 RON. does sulphur content affect only the emissions or does it also affect engines? discussion?

[Modykoh]

The oxides of sulphur (SOx) derived directly from the sulphur content of the fuel used. it is called fuel bond...in fact sulphure is very rich in raw crude oil

 

Most of the world standard adpoted th elimit of 4.5% sulphur for the distalled fuel...currently the only way was to removed the sulpure vai the distall process..the lesser the content, the more expensive the petrol will be....it is a balance or trade off between environment and econmonics...this called the primary treatment..

 

The petrol compnay usually keeps documentary evidence

[Octopus]

i always thought sulphur in fuel is more related to diesel than petrol. Hence diesel engine oil have higher TBN to counter the acidity of sulphur (sulphiric acid)

 

I believe there are some advantage to sulphur, for example they are present in gear oil especially GL-5 spec gear oil as they as as extreme pressure additive.

 

In engine oil contex, I think (not sure) sulphur from combustion gas do react with additive in engine oil to form a protective layer on metal surface? Such as Iron Sulphide, Molybdenum disulphide, etc...

[Zyrofillica]

hmm i think the sulphur content in our diesels here is 500ppm. But the Ultra low Sulphur diesels that shell sells has 50ppm as claimed on the shell website.

 

so if sulphur does combine with additives in our engine oil to form a protective layer, does this mean more sulphur in petrol is good for the engine?

[Leepee]

So what if the engine is detune? The structural and combustion cycle and valves/piston material is the same right?

How will it protect the engine?

 

Anyone knows?

 

[Octopus]

hmm i think the sulphur content in our diesels here is 500ppm. But the Ultra low Sulphur diesels that shell sells has 50ppm as claimed on the shell website.

 

so if sulphur does combine with additives in our engine oil to form a protective layer, does this mean more sulphur in petrol is good for the engine?

 

Maybe after a layer is form, any additional sulphur is not utilised?..

 

Refer to page 16 of this article, there is a drawing showing the thickness of iron sulphide, its very thin layer.

http://uhv.cheme.cmu.edu/pubs/SurfChemTrib.130.pdf

 

 

[Zyrofillica]

engine is detuned to change the sparkplug combustion timing and air/fuel ratio. This is done so that pre detonation does not occur while utilizing lower RON petrols. to make more power, a leaner mixture of air/fuel is required with petrol of high RON. Pre detonation in the long run will cause severe damage to the engine. hence the detune would be to protect the engine from pre detonation but it should not have anything to do with the sulphur content of the petrol. I was thinking along the line of more sulphur would mean increased build up of sludge in areas with close tolerances? (maybe in the direct to combustion chamber injectors and tappets?)

Edited November 28, 2009 by Zyrofillica

[Pisces69]

engine is detuned to change the sparkplug combustion timing and air/fuel ratio. This is done so that pre detonation does not occur while utilizing lower RON petrols. to make more power, a leaner mixture of air/fuel is required with petrol of high RON. Pre detonation in the long run will cause severe damage to the engine. hence the detune would be to protect the engine from pre detonation but it should not have anything to do with the sulphur content of the petrol. I was thinking along the line of more sulphur would mean increased build up of sludge in areas with close tolerances? (maybe in the direct to combustion chamber injectors and tappets?)

================

 

If u remember some time back CnC brought in Mitsu cars using GDI engines. These were supposed to b suitable for our petrols but it seems it was not.

 

That is why u dont see GDI petrol Mitsu cars anymore. Now its MIVEC engines.

 

Dont always believe what pple tell u. They r just trying to sell their products.

 

So coming back to JDM PI cars. Is the petrol we have suitable for them? Only time will tell but so far it seems so good.

 

Diesel also cud hv problems but our Euro 4 diesel cars have run for short periods on high sulphur diesels in MY but did not show any problems. If run long term, who knows what will happen.

[Zyrofillica]

lol... damn condemed GDI car. I am driving a GDI galant and from research, its really performing sub par with its japanese counterparts. Also i worry about the increased engine maintenance and long term effects of the type of petrol im using compared to those in japan. wondering if there are other GDI owners out there with problems on their high mileage vehicles. thinking of driving it till 10 years so i'm finding out what kind of preventive maintenance should be done since im using "substandard 98 ron petrol"

 

in japan, their galants have 152hp vs 145hp detuned. FC is 16km/l vs 12km/l.

[Zyrofillica]

its documented direct into combustion chamber injection systems suffer from more sludge build up compared to those whose fuel is injected into the intakes before reaching the cylinders. Hence petrol quality and engine oil quality is especially important for GDI engines. Perhaps those japanese vehicles running on normal injection systems are not as fussy about petrol and oil quality and hence suffer less problems in the long run?

 

i think some shell station is selling low sulphur diesels for the euro 4 engines.

[Boyboy]

all diesel sold at kiosks in SG is ULSD already. <50ppm. i believe those 'industrial diesel' is also ULSD since it's supposedly same as kiosk diesel.

 

u realise taxi fumes these days are not as smelly as last time, but the newer euro 4 commonrail diesels have a sharp smell which is nitrogen oxides..

[Zyrofillica]

i stand corrected. thanks boy boy. any up to date info on our petrol regulations with relation to sulphur content?

 

"The National Environment Agency (NEA) defines ultra low sulfur diesel (ULSD) as diesel fuel with less than 50ppm, or 0.005 per cent, sulfur content.

 

On June 16, 2005, NEA announced that the use of ULSD would be mandatory beginning December 1, 2005. The regulation also offered tax incentives for Euro IV diesel taxis, buses and commercial vehicles between June 1, 2004 and September 3, 2006, pending a mandatory conversion to Euro IV-compliant vehicles in 2007"

[Octopus]

lol... damn condemed GDI car. I am driving a GDI galant and from research, its really performing sub par with its japanese counterparts. Also i worry about the increased engine maintenance and long term effects of the type of petrol im using compared to those in japan. wondering if there are other GDI owners out there with problems on their high mileage vehicles. thinking of driving it till 10 years so i'm finding out what kind of preventive maintenance should be done since im using "substandard 98 ron petrol"

 

in japan, their galants have 152hp vs 145hp detuned. FC is 16km/l vs 12km/l.

 

Have you seen this article, since you researching about GDI?

http://www.autozine.org/technical_school/engine/petrol1.htm

 

Quote: "As tested by a UK magazine, Mitsubishi Carisma GDI did not deliver higher fuel efficiency than competitors with conventional engines, very different to what the company claimed. This is simply not explainable until Renault launched its own direct injection petrol engine recently. In Renault

[Zyrofillica]

yup i know about this issue, thanks for the input.

 

Japanese GDI tech is doing fine in japan. I may not mind the reduced performance parameters and fuel efficiency but worry about long term effects. Not even confident that C&C researched about this new tech and its compatibility to local conditions before even bringing it in and selling it to us~ They charge an arm and leg for servicing and they (service staff) are apparently unaware of this fuel compatibility and preventive maintenance. (always tell me only to engine flush engine flush. engine flush my a--) So im doing some research on how owners with GDI engines are fairing outside of japan and how it can be maintained to run for 10 years.

[Pisces69]

all diesel sold at kiosks in SG is ULSD already. <50ppm. i believe those 'industrial diesel' is also ULSD since it's supposedly same as kiosk diesel.

 

u realise taxi fumes these days are not as smelly as last time, but the newer euro 4 commonrail diesels have a sharp smell which is nitrogen oxides..

=================

 

I think those "industrial" diesel is of higher sulpher content. Only suitable for those older design engines. Thats why its cheaper. Use it on a Euro 4 or 5 & I think there wil b problems after some time.

 

Worse is Marine diesel. Very contaminated but cheap. Used mainly by those ships.

[Zyrofillica]

found some answers on how high sulphur petrols affect GDI engines (or rather emissions)

 

http://www.arunautogas.co.uk/lpg_and_fsi_g...ion_engines.htm

 

"So why hasn't this technology been brought out sooner? Cost, of course, is one issue but it is not the most significant one. Actually, the main problem is the sulphur level in U.S. fuel. Both Mitsubishi and Toyota have been selling vehicles with GDI engines in the Japanese market for years. They can't sell them here because the higher sulphur levels in U.S. fuels would cause the special catalytic converters these engines use to deteriorate too rapidly. Because GDI engines run lean most of the time, a special formulation of catalytic converter is needed to meet tailpipe emission standards. Unfortunately, this type of catalyst has a very low tolerance for sulphur."

 

and how low octane petrol or maybe petrol with more impurities is bad for the high pressure fuel pump and high powered injectors that is a special feature of all GDI engines. So for those driving cars with GDI engines, clean your fuel pump, injectors and throttle body regularly and use the best petrol available (98 and up) for your car.

 

oh and i'm still very interested in finding out the sulphur content of petrol sold in singapore. Anyone here knows or knows which authority regulates this cos shell is not replying my email queries. thanks

Edited December 1, 2009 by Zyrofillica

[Zyrofillica]

=================

 

I think those "industrial" diesel is of higher sulpher content. Only suitable for those older design engines. Thats why its cheaper. Use it on a Euro 4 or 5 & I think there wil b problems after some time.

 

Worse is Marine diesel. Very contaminated but cheap. Used mainly by those ships.

 

hah. no wonder there is such a big price difference btw diesel (low sulphur) sold at gas station and those illegal vendors. (high sulphur) But i think taxi drivers won't give a s--t because if the engines die, it is not their problem or perogative to fix.

[Octopus]

oh and i'm still very interested in finding out the sulphur content of petrol sold in singapore. Anyone here knows or knows which authority regulates this cos shell is not replying my email queries

 

You can try sending NEA your enquiry, I think they are the correct authority on this issue...