National Service in Singapore

[Galantspeedz]

The thing is you can't even put your military skills into good use.

I still remember the "garang" look we have to dish out during baynott fighting in BMT.

If one is able to fight back the robbers, especially in our highly conscripted army, it does send a message down to would be aggressors that we do have an aggressive fighting force.

 

Right here, we are so close to our northern neighbour. Artillery fire can alone destroy our homes without the enemy even requiring to set foot on our soil.

 

It's all about deterance......

 

Dun worry... I sure got at least 2 ang mo will go back and tell their country people that sgporeans is a aggressive fighting force....

 

 

[XenonWhite]

U ppl talk so much also no use... Even the officer lead his men "holland" instead of objective.. So whats the point?? I've seen it happening so many a times.. :D

 

How to fight a war?? And some times when i was the empire, can see some platoons charging against their own comrades instead of the "enemy"..

 

If singapore goes into war, some of the enemies will die definitely but due to laughing too much cos of the way they see us fight.. [:p]

[Scion]

I'm guessing you are a woman or foreigner. Either way, if 2 years NS is so good, we should make it compulsory for women and new citizens of any age, unless you are suggesting that Singaporean men are somehow inferior and needs NS to do the "transformation".

 

no way...

If Ho Ching or Saw Phiak Hwa is the head of army, we'd lose all the confidence during war times

[Jim]

Because he/she supports NS?

 

I support 2yrs NS too... No I am not guniang...

 

NS has already been shortened from 2.5yrs to 2yrs... At the same time pay has increased...

 

Swiss does not face as large a threat as what we face....

 

Why some people compare for the sake of comparing.....

 

Read again. He/She said Singaporean males are "guniang" if they don't serve NS.

 

Switzerland is a neutral nation and shares a border with Germany, and it is within a stone's throw from the Iron Curtain when it was still up. Which neighbours of Singapore is comparable to Germany or the Soviet bloc? Not to mention, Singapore is not a neutral nation. Go take a look at satellite photos of Changi Naval Base on Google Maps and tell me you cannot see an aircraft carrier.

 

Oh, and why is 2 years NS sufficient? I served a full 30 months. If you really think Singapore will fail without NS, why is 24 months sufficient? Why not serve 3 full years like the Israelis, and conscript both men and women? Why is it the status quo is always Goldilocks perfect?

 

Anyway, like I said, I am not adamant about cutting NS. Just make it fair. Raise the salary and ban disruptions. Conscript the women too. And the changes I advocate for will spontaneously happen. As soon as the elites have to bear the cost, the changes will happen.

[Bystander50]

U ppl talk so much also no use... Even the officer lead his men "holland" instead of objective.. So whats the point?? I've seen it happening so many a times.. :D

 

How to fight a war?? And some times when i was the empire, can see some platoons charging against their own comrades instead of the "enemy"..

 

If singapore goes into war, some of the enemies will die definitely but due to laughing too much cos of the way they see us fight.. [:p]

 

That is why I've no confidence in the next generation of conscripted fighting force, despite the boost of technology.

It's amamzing that these people think that technologies will not fail at the critical time.

 

I would retract all my words if our paper generals can perform such a stunt by leading the troops on the ground in a real war situation instead of hiding in some underground bunkers.

 

 

 

[Mllcg]

1 year is more than enough in singapore.

 

we are not at active war with any country.

 

we are just technically a self defence force. our army is to defend our selves in case of emergency and not like korea/china who are technically at war with their neighbours..

[Cdior]

I finish 2 year of ns.

101% waste of time only.

I only learn how to scold cb n lanjiao from spec who scold us everyday with cb n lj.

Till now cb n lj still shooting out of my mouth.

[Jim]

Right here, we are so close to our northern neighbour. Artillery fire can alone destroy our homes without the enemy even requiring to set foot on our soil.

 

There is no reason to worry about proximity to our northern neighbours because Singapore, at least on paper, has a superior air force and navy, as well as longer range artillery, including the "rain of steel" HIMARS that we just acquired. Any piece of land that can fire a shot at Singapore, will be blown to stone age. There is no need to question Singapore's survivability in a quick hot war.

 

The problem is with a prolonged cold war. Malaysia and Indonesia can impose an air and sea blockade and starve Singapore to death long before a single shot is fired. Or more easily, just withdraw their nationals. Believe me, Singapore will cease to function if every single Malaysian and Indonesian citizen leave.

 

For starters, SMRT wont have a CEO. In fact, it seems much of SMRT's senior management are PRs.

 

And let's say we break the blockade by invading them. What's next? 8 years of Iraq style occupation? What will be left of the Singapore economy after such a war?

 

There is no question Singapore has threats. But being the glass house that Singapore is, if anybody starts throwing stones, we would have lost already. Doesnt matter if we stockpiled more stones than anyone else.

 

I agree deterrence is important, and we have invested well with the hardware. But does it really that much whether Singapore conscripts gets 2 full years of training or not?

 

In a real war time, how do soldiers get to their reporting centres? By taking the MRT? Or SBS Bus driven by PRC nationals?

[Jetabout777]

Read again. He/She said Singaporean males are "guniang" if they don't serve NS.

 

Switzerland is a neutral nation and shares a border with Germany, and it is within a stone's throw from the Iron Curtain when it was still up. Which neighbours of Singapore is comparable to Germany or the Soviet bloc? Not to mention, Singapore is not a neutral nation. Go take a look at satellite photos of Changi Naval Base on Google Maps and tell me you cannot see an aircraft carrier.

 

Oh, and why is 2 years NS sufficient? I served a full 30 months. If you really think Singapore will fail without NS, why is 24 months sufficient? Why not serve 3 full years like the Israelis, and conscript both men and women? Why is it the status quo is always Goldilocks perfect?

 

Anyway, like I said, I am not adamant about cutting NS. Just make it fair. Raise the salary and ban disruptions. Conscript the women too. And the changes I advocate for will spontaneously happen. As soon as the elites have to bear the cost, the changes will happen.

 

That's why so many young ang moh men with crew cut hairstyle hanging around Expo and Changi City Point area?

[Galantspeedz]

Read again. He/She said Singaporean males are "guniang" if they don't serve NS.

 

Switzerland is a neutral nation and shares a border with Germany, and it is within a stone's throw from the Iron Curtain when it was still up. Which neighbours of Singapore is comparable to Germany or the Soviet bloc? Not to mention, Singapore is not a neutral nation. Go take a look at satellite photos of Changi Naval Base on Google Maps and tell me you cannot see an aircraft carrier.

 

Oh, and why is 2 years NS sufficient? I served a full 30 months. If you really think Singapore will fail without NS, why is 24 months sufficient? Why not serve 3 full years like the Israelis, and conscript both men and women? Why is it the status quo is always Goldilocks perfect?

 

Anyway, like I said, I am not adamant about cutting NS. Just make it fair. Raise the salary and ban disruptions. Conscript the women too. And the changes I advocate for will spontaneously happen. As soon as the elites have to bear the cost, the changes will happen.

 

I read again... Why makes you think he is a woman or foreigner? Which part is guniang?

It is not which neighbour is comparable to Germany but which neighbor wants to see us fall...

Yes sg may not be a neutral country... So we shall let history happen again just like how the British surrendered on our behalf?

The key to the length of NS should be something that other countries know we ain't just going thru the motions

Wasn't NS cut from 2.5mths and salary increased?

[Atonchia]

Switzerland is protected by all of Europe and other rich nations too. Because you would do your best to ensure your bank has the best security and will send in forces to double the security if required.

 

I support 2 years too. It's only a short stint of the whole working life.

Those who kept saying they are behind shouldn't blame the NS, should blame themselves. Great leaders, businessman and professional do not blame circumstances, they are committed and take responsibilities of their own destiny.

That 2 years should not hold back resourceful people.

 

 

[Jim]

I read again... Why makes you think he is a woman or foreigner? Which part is guniang?

 

Quote

I support the 2 years for a boy transformation to a really man....won't want my son to be a half pass six, half grown man....

Unquote

 

LoverofCar thinks his/her son will only be a half grown man without 2 years of NS. Doesnt that sounds like he/she thinks his/her son is guniang without NS? Would a Singaporean man think like that? I sincerely hope not.

 

Do *you* think that without NS, you yourself will only be a half pass six half grown man? If you do, I can only express sympathies for you as well.

 

It is no surprise Singaporeans are overran by foreigners. We Singaporeans are a self-loathing lot. When you look down on yourself, don't expect foreigners to respect you. 2 years or 20 years of NS wont make you any more or less a man that you already are.

Edited December 26, 2011 by Jim

[Ah_tee]

i believe TS is not just asking about the duration of the NS

 

he is also asking about the career development in this economic situation

 

i believe generally everyone understands the general importance of NS.

 

 

 

 

 

1) can we set a minimum wage for NS Men upon ORD to be on-par wif the female counpterparts ?

 

this is not a small problem to me personally, my present GF is 2 yrs my senior. which my means my total career advancement was 4.5yrs behind her

 

at one point nearing my ORD i was drawing $400 as a corporal and she was earning 10x that pay, this is a very big imbalance in terms of spending power, CPF contributions, savings.

 

 

 

 

2) Can NS Men be guranteed better /equal opportunities with Foreign Trash upon ORD ?

 

i believe you guys have heard "faster, Better, Cheaper" FTs.

 

better is subjective i believe i have seen none yet

 

, but for the other 2 please see below

 

 

 

 

 

some of the model answers to above questions

 

1)sgporeans are having too high expectations, which will drive away foreign investors due to high overheads

 

2)FTs are here to create more jobs

 

 

 

 

the root of the whole problem is still the cost of living

 

if MIW can focus of milking less income from their own citizens then everyone would lower their expectations

 

 

please take into account a average NS Men on the street, no offence to anyone here but this being a car forum would want me to generalise the pple here are generally from the higher income group either with bery rich parents or have a big inheritance at some point in their liftime, but please take reference to the avg man on the street, he would most likely

 

1) has to shoulder increasing costs from food, transport of his own upon ORD

 

2) not only that he has to shoulder on his own, he has to shoulder his parents, given the concept the average senior citizen would not be able to retire but would most likely be earning half the pay with half the benefits, please note this is practice evem in civil sector

 

 

3) has to shoulder his education loans, be it poly or uni

 

 

4) he would have to settle down by early 30s if his gf is in the same age group as woman are at a higher risk of complications of late pregnancy which means

 

 

5) he would have to shoulder the ever rising property prices

 

 

given the above general conditions, do you think anyone will make noise about national service ? i dont mean the point of doing it but at the expenses of doing it

 

 

TS has a valid point of raising that issue but many would have seen it as a sgporean ranting about national service

 

 

if we look at the big picture, something is really very wrong in the system now

 

someone once tell me before even if ur pay is increasing 10% every year you are still getting poorer.

 

 

he take his theory from

 

 

what is the standard entry pay of a poly grad 10 yrs ago ? $1600--$1800 ?

 

what is entry pay now ? still $1600- $1800 ?

 

 

what is the cost of a HDB flat now and 10yrs ago ?

Edited December 26, 2011 by Ah_tee

[Good-Carbuyer]

Do you think 2 years is even sufficient at all?

Even our NSFs can't even fight off robbers in JB, how are they even going to fight a real enemy? Think of it, majority of our men have served NS and still get attacked/rebbed in JB, without even displaying an act of self defence. For someone to invade us, their military will definitely be stronger than us, with bullets and explosions around, you see how many are shivering, freezing on their tracks and wetting their pants. On the other hand, if a US Marine or military personnel is here and you try to rob them, see what sort of response you'll receive from them.

The simulated attacks during exercises are nowhere real compared to the actual battlefield. In exercises, you know you are pretty safe in all your movements. Try that in war. All will either be hiding in trenches or behind the walls.

I still believe at this time, gradually moving towards a paid "volunteer" self-defence force with a 6 months of initial training followed by a 1 week annual ICT would be sufficient. Survival in a battlefield is based on instinct.

People who dare to drive without street illumination. People can carry army bag. People who need not confessed to be incompetent officer to other ranks. These people would be more useful in an emergency. I believe too many officers will panicked and cause stampede instead.

[Jim]

Switzerland is protected by all of Europe and other rich nations too. Because you would do your best to ensure your bank has the best security and will send in forces to double the security if required.

 

I support 2 years too. It's only a short stint of the whole working life.

Those who kept saying they are behind shouldn't blame the NS, should blame themselves. Great leaders, businessman and professional do not blame circumstances, they are committed and take responsibilities of their own destiny.

That 2 years should not hold back resourceful people.

 

If Switzerland is so safe, why do they let their men bring home their service weapon? Every Swiss man has an automatic assault weapon AND ammo. At home. Compare that with the musical chairs we play with our generals, and then tell me with a straight face, Singapore is serious about defence, when bulk of Singaporean soldiers are still an MRT ride or bus ride away from our weapons and a further wait for our ammo.

 

Tell me that NS is not an issue for the likes of Patrick Tan, Lee Hsien Loong, Lee Hsien Yang, Teo Chee Hean, George Yeo, Lim Hng Kiang, Lui Tuck Yew. Tell them they were silly to disrupt from their full time NS to go for their studies. If they are so resourceful, they could complete their full time NS before studying and everything will still work out the same way.

[Good-Carbuyer]

Indeed. I will further point out that if Singapore is serious about defence, why are our generals so young, and before they even warm their seat, they are rushed out to be the CEO of some GLC or stat board? Can we count on our young generals, who thanks to their scholar track, never spent more than 2 years doing any role, to stay calm in times of emergency?

 

There are plenty of able leaders in SAF, people I will charge to death on their orders but they are seldom the scholars, and therefore, seldom rise to top leadership. OTOH, there are plenty of scholars who can't count on their own men to not shoot them the moment the opportunity arise.

Somehow I believe Murphy's law will be applied during emergency. Like officer orders to charge in wrong direction (into a cliff or trap-door) instead. Whole platoon/company killed by one officer (very productive).

Example: Many years back, I was among a company that reported for a 3-days in-camp training. We were told to loiter around for 1st 2 days. After lunch on the 3rd day of the in-camp training, OC announced it was due to the new No: 1 in command, having key our in-camp training 1 year in advance. That is right, brought forward a year for us to have a 3-days in-camp training in loitering around. Promote such calibre to No:1 appointment? I believe you can introduce a blind who can do better than that. The blind leads the blind. Emergency how?

[Good-Carbuyer]

I can't imaging if our home w/o army so I strongly agree on the 2yrs army life..

I think those of u that disagree on 2yrs army are young man haven't serve army yet..

I have a boy n will let him do NS..

Btw I finish my 2yrs NS too..

I like the way you put it. I am not against NS. I am not in favour of putting people who confessed/proved to be incompetent officers, where they are.

[Jim]

Israeli citizens of Arab descent can choose not to serve military service, but most will choose to serve. Because they cannot find a job otherwise. In Singapore, any honest employer will tell you that given a choice, they would rather employ someone without reservist liabilities.

 

This being a car forum, let's use a car analogy. All else being the same, would you prefer to buy "car FT" , a car you can use everyday, or "car NS" that will disappear for a week or two every year? When you pile in the 20% Employer's CPF, buying the "car NS" makes no sense at all.

 

Compared that with how the foreigners kpkb about the 10% stamp duty for private property.

 

Sure NS pay is well higher than the 200 a month I used to collect. But is it close to market rates? Singapore government talk about free market about everything else, so how much would the free market charge for a 2 year contract of a healthy 18yo man? Why ask Singaporean men to disproportionately contribute their youth and money to defence?

 

Dont the women and foreigners enjoy the fruits of NS as well? Can't we tax them more to raise NS pay?