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129 replies to this topic | 143 praises

#1

Posted 07 December 2013 - 10:36 PM

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http://www.businessi...-to-576-2013-12

Bitcoin fell from a high of $1,079 to a low of $576 today. This is according to data from Mt. Gox. Also, this represents a breathtaking 46% crash.
Currently, Bitcoin is back to the $700 level. This is still down a whopping 35%.
The sharp moves come in the wake of China's clampdown on the controversial digital currency.
Earlier this week, the People's Bank of China announced it was barring the country's banks from handling the Bitcoin. (That Thursday announcement was followed by a 30% intraday crash.)
That was followed by this announcement from Baidu, aka "the Chinese Google":
Due to the recent fluctuations in the price of Bitcoin larger unable to protect the interests of users, in response to the risk of state-controlled bitcoin spirit Baidu music accelerate decision to suspend with immediate effect from accepting bitcoin buy accelerate music services.
Horrific price volatility has been one of the biggest criticisms.
This week, Bank of America Merrill Lynch currency strategist David Woo initiated coverage of Bitcoin, assigning a $1,300 fair value.
"We believe Bitcoin can become a major means of payment for e-commerce and may emerge as a serious competitor to traditional money transfer providers," wrote Woo in a 14-page note to clients. "As a medium of exchange, Bitcoin has clear potential for growth, in our view."

#2

Posted 08 December 2013 - 09:26 AM

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The Chinese are SO stupid to have done that. They could've been the de facto most favoured economy after the US had come down hard on BTC. They've squandered the opportunity. Good for them. [rolleyes]
This place is not what it used to be. I'm glad for the friends I made here. But I'm moving on, just like Porker and some others I know. Cheers!

#3

Posted 08 December 2013 - 11:00 AM

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The Chinese are SO stupid to have done that. They could've been the de facto most favoured economy after the US had come down hard on BTC. They've squandered the opportunity. Good for them. [rolleyes]

Who knows..those might be laundry money. Lose already won't feel the pain.. rather, they still become squeaky clean.

The gov probably find that they cannot control this part..

Edited by Solar, 08 December 2013 - 11:03 AM.

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#4

Posted 08 December 2013 - 12:31 PM

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They have never allowed the popularity game to determine what they do, just look at the ADIZ, the spokeperson can actually said they are not being aggressive and are following international law without batting an eyelid. 

 

PRC will do things on their own terms and convince themselves of things no one else will believe. Bitcoin is nothing to them in the grand scheme of things.

 

For all its ills (except all the disgusting QE), I'm glad the US is still on top, the day the PRC is on top is the day the rest of the world should be very very worried.

The Chinese are SO stupid to have done that. They could've been the de facto most favoured economy after the US had come down hard on BTC. They've squandered the opportunity. Good for them. [rolleyes]

 


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#5

Posted 09 December 2013 - 09:01 AM

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Who knows..those might be laundry money. Lose already won't feel the pain.. rather, they still become squeaky clean.

The gov probably find that they cannot control this part..

 

Actually there's a big debate on whether Bitcoins as a viable means of laundering money. I spent a good part of the year investigating bitcoin exchanges and customers transaction with bitcoin entities in my bank to determine and vulnerabilities and any suspicious behaviour.


Deux Ex Machina

#6

Posted 09 December 2013 - 10:00 AM

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Actually there's a big debate on whether Bitcoins as a viable means of laundering money. I spent a good part of the year investigating bitcoin exchanges and customers transaction with bitcoin entities in my bank to determine and vulnerabilities and any suspicious behaviour.

 

bitcoin is supposed to be untraceable ?

It has been used to buy drugs and all manners of illegal activities, like pay for a hitman.

http://en.wikipedia....d_(marketplace)

 

It's like buying shares like bluemont group. One day $2, next day $0 [laugh]

 

I'll stay on the sideline and watched.

 

Someday, most countries may just outright banned bitcoin bcoz it has no intrinsic value like gold, and ti's not controllable.



#7

Posted 09 December 2013 - 09:31 PM

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it is obvious for the laundry opportunities.

but having said that, i wonder how far it can go. taken into consideration of the govt wants to suck more and bitcoin is preventing it.  [grin]


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#8

Posted 09 December 2013 - 09:44 PM

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Anonymous digital currency cannot survive for long. Many have failed, for e.g. e-gold where it was pegged to the price of real gold. In the end it had to close down because criminals are the 1st to exploited it. .



#9

Posted 10 December 2013 - 01:11 AM

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http://www.businessi...-to-576-2013-12

Bitcoin fell from a high of $1,079 to a low of $576 today. This is according to data from Mt. Gox. Also, this represents a breathtaking 46% crash.

 

I have so far told friends to stay away from bitcoin as a form of investment. Guess some of them owe me meals  [grin]


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#10

Posted 10 December 2013 - 07:22 AM

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I have so far told friends to stay away from bitcoin as a form of investment. Guess some of them owe me meals  [grin]


Until bit coin goes out of circulation, you wouldn't know who gets the last laugh.
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#11

Posted 10 December 2013 - 08:41 AM

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Until bit coin goes out of circulation, you wouldn't know who gets the last laugh.

 

Exactly. There are still many BTC millionaires out there, who started off investing a few hundred bucks.


This place is not what it used to be. I'm glad for the friends I made here. But I'm moving on, just like Porker and some others I know. Cheers!

#12

Posted 10 December 2013 - 06:10 PM

Manmaster

This bitcoin is a con product.  Nobody can create money out of thin air.  Those who bought into the bitcoin story just didn't understand the concept of money and economics.

 

Money was created to facilitate barter trades in the good old days and money had this perceived value to replace goods was because money was backed up by authority plus something valuable (gold) in the past.  Without any backing from an authority or something valuable, there won't be any value placed on money.  Demand and supply will only create price fluctuations but not values.  If money is backed by an authority or something valuable, it will have value even when there is no demand as the authority will buy back the money or the money can be exchanged by something else as it is backed by something valuable.

 

Now, ask yourself this:

 

Is bitcoin backed by any authority? NO!

Is bitcoin backed by something valuable? NO!

 

Bitcoin is created by cryptographic software with diminishing supply.  Like I said earlier, demand and supply only create price fluctuations and not values.  When there is no demand for bitcoin, bitcoin will become zero value which is its true value.



#13

Posted 10 December 2013 - 09:04 PM

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Until bit coin goes out of circulation, you wouldn't know who gets the last laugh.

 

Basically bitcoin is backed by nothing and if authorities decide to regulate it, the value will definitely fall to a level where it's reasonable. Either way, it's a big risk for both friends and customers. However, I do regret not buying into Citibank when it dropped to $1  [furious] 


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#14

Posted 10 December 2013 - 09:14 PM

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This bitcoin is a con product.  Nobody can create money out of thin air.  Those who bought into the bitcoin story just didn't understand the concept of money and economics.
 
Money was created to facilitate barter trades in the good old days and money had this perceived value to replace goods was because money was backed up by authority plus something valuable (gold) in the past.  Without any backing from an authority or something valuable, there won't be any value placed on money.  Demand and supply will only create price fluctuations but not values.  If money is backed by an authority or something valuable, it will have value even when there is no demand as the authority will buy back the money or the money can be exchanged by something else as it is backed by something valuable.
 
Now, ask yourself this:
 
Is bitcoin backed by any authority? NO!
Is bitcoin backed by something valuable? NO!
 
Bitcoin is created by cryptographic software with diminishing supply.  Like I said earlier, demand and supply only create price fluctuations and not values.  When there is no demand for bitcoin, bitcoin will become zero value which is its true value.


And you think currency debt ceiling is backed up really well? I suggest you google "currency debt ceiling kicking the can down"

You will find many examples of why currency at this moment is not a good investment area.

If you think it's just USD, think again who they are in debt too. When they don't pay, imagine it's like lending money to a friend and he absconds or passes on.

What is deemed as something that is "trustworthy" and backed up is really different. You know the dictators when they are caught what they have? Rolex, gold, LV, limited edition cars, USD, RMB. But what has real value among most people, that depends on how many years down the road you look.

Bitcoin has a possibility of becoming a currency by itself? You ask people before WW1, the de facto currency was it USD? Was USA the only super power? Just 50 years ago was sgd worth a lot? Remember banana notes?

20 years ago if I told you something called the internet would wipe encyclopedias dry would you believe it? When I tell you information would be a click away do you believe? That snail mail would be killed would you have thought it is possible?

During that time did you hear about globalisation? Did you know the score of the match happening in secs across the planet? Trading in other countries stocks and shares would be for the rich boys.

You have your views and they are not wrong, but to think that anything that is not "backed up" by physical items is quite ancient. It is perception, just like you think 1usd or sgd is backed up with how much weight of gold? You really know? It's a perception.
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Smile, and the world will smile with you. Laugh and they'll all think your on drugs
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When it's a question of money, everybody is of the same religion

#15

Posted 10 December 2013 - 09:19 PM

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Basically bitcoin is backed by nothing and if authorities decide to regulate it, the value will definitely fall to a level where it's reasonable. Either way, it's a big risk for both friends and customers. However, I do regret not buying into Citibank when it dropped to $1  [furious] 


With globalisation, authorities could mean a very different thing in the future. We all have many regrets, on hindsight everything is easy. What we can do is to admit and not cry sour grapes.
My mechanic told me, "I couldn't repair your brakes, so I made your horn louder."
Smile, and the world will smile with you. Laugh and they'll all think your on drugs
"i'm not tailgating, i'm keeping up with the pace car"
When it's a question of money, everybody is of the same religion

#16

Posted 10 December 2013 - 10:34 PM

Manmaster

And you think currency debt ceiling is backed up really well? I suggest you google "currency debt ceiling kicking the can down"

You will find many examples of why currency at this moment is not a good investment area.

If you think it's just USD, think again who they are in debt too. When they don't pay, imagine it's like lending money to a friend and he absconds or passes on.

What is deemed as something that is "trustworthy" and backed up is really different. You know the dictators when they are caught what they have? Rolex, gold, LV, limited edition cars, USD, RMB. But what has real value among most people, that depends on how many years down the road you look.

Bitcoin has a possibility of becoming a currency by itself? You ask people before WW1, the de facto currency was it USD? Was USA the only super power? Just 50 years ago was sgd worth a lot? Remember banana notes?

20 years ago if I told you something called the internet would wipe encyclopedias dry would you believe it? When I tell you information would be a click away do you believe? That snail mail would be killed would you have thought it is possible?

During that time did you hear about globalisation? Did you know the score of the match happening in secs across the planet? Trading in other countries stocks and shares would be for the rich boys.

You have your views and they are not wrong, but to think that anything that is not "backed up" by physical items is quite ancient. It is perception, just like you think 1usd or sgd is backed up with how much weight of gold? You really know? It's a perception.

 

I really wanted to laugh at your rationale but I guess i've to pardon someone with no proper money & economic understanding.

 

When an authority (government) backs up its currency (eg, SGD), it becomes legal tender.  What is legal tender? It means you MUST accept SGD as the mode of payment in SG and you can't reject it.  This has created a value for people to own SGD knowing that you won't be rejected.

 

When a currency is backed up by gold & foreign reserves, the currency will have value and people will want to own something that has value.  Therefore, a currency that is backed up by government & reserves will have value as the currency is legal tender with financial backing.

 

Talking about the banana notes, they became worthless because the japanese government abandoned the banana notes.  A currency with no authority and reserves backing has no value.  Thank you for reinforcing this FUNDAMENTAL point.  Therefore, bitcoin without authority & reserves backing has no value too as history has already proven the point.  Like I said, demand & supply will only create price fluctuations but not values.  That's why our government uses money to control inflation instead of interest rates because it can work too.

 

Once again, thank you for reinforcing the points that I've stated.  Remember not to invest in so called Digital currency when it is not legal tender and without financial backing.  It is an offence to reject SGD but not an offence to reject bitcoin......Anyone with common sense will know which one to own.


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#17

Posted 10 December 2013 - 10:51 PM

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I really wanted to laugh at your rationale but I guess i've to pardon someone with no proper money & economic understanding.
 
When an authority (government) backs up its currency (eg, SGD), it becomes legal tender.  What is legal tender? It means you MUST accept SGD as the mode of payment in SG and you can't reject it.  This has created a value for people to own SGD knowing that you won't be rejected.
 
When a currency is backed up by gold & foreign reserves, the currency will have value and people will want to own something that has value.  Therefore, a currency that is backed up by government & reserves will have value as the currency is legal tender with financial backing.
 
Talking about the banana notes, they became worthless because the japanese government abandoned the banana notes.  A currency with no authority and reserves backing has no value.  Thank you for reinforcing this FUNDAMENTAL point.  Therefore, bitcoin without authority & reserves backing has no value too as history has already proven the point.  Like I said, demand & supply will only create price fluctuations but not values.  That's why our government uses money to control inflation instead of interest rates because it can work too.
 
Once again, thank you for reinforcing the points that I've stated.  Remember not to invest in so called Digital currency when it is not legal tender and without financial backing.  It is an offence to reject SGD but not an offence to reject bitcoin......Anyone with common sense will know which one to own.


Ok good for you, let's see who has the last laugh. Based on your last sentence there is less common sense in the world. What with all the digits we see in our bank accounts, with PayPal, with Amazon credit.

legal tender everywhere at a point of time was currency issued by different companies which backed it up by "paying" the shops with services and such to make it legal tender, it had shifted from companies to countries, what makes you think it will not shift to people.

See who has the last laugh la.... Btw I am not vested, it is also amusing that you seem to want to prove your point but fail to see how currency started and how fragile your definition of currency is at this point of time. It's a matter of perception eventually, it's like how ppl can't fathom why Facebook and Twitter can command billions in shares when it is publicly listed. If you had bitcoin a few years back having perceived it may/will grow in value and dump it now, you will have lots more "real" currency which you value now.

You have your opinions and others have theirs, you can laugh all you want about me or others with bitcoin. In the end at different points of time based in the perception ppl have of the situation you will see who is laughing, but I have to tell you strictly at this point of time it's clear who is getting the real laughs and who is laughing based on sour grapes.
My mechanic told me, "I couldn't repair your brakes, so I made your horn louder."
Smile, and the world will smile with you. Laugh and they'll all think your on drugs
"i'm not tailgating, i'm keeping up with the pace car"
When it's a question of money, everybody is of the same religion

#18

Posted 10 December 2013 - 10:55 PM

Manmaster

Ok good for you, let's see who has the last laugh. Based on your last sentence there is less common sense in the world. What with all the digits we see in our bank accounts, with PayPal, with Amazon credit.

legal tender everywhere at a point of time was currency issued by different companies which backed it up by "paying" the shops with services and such to make it legal tender, it had shifted from companies to countries, what makes you think it will not shift to people.

See who has the last laugh la.... Btw I am not vested, it is also amusing that you seem to want to prove your point but fail to see how currency started and how fragile your definition of currency is at this point of time. It's a matter of perception eventually, it's like how ppl can't fathom why Facebook and Twitter can command billions in shares when it is publicly listed. If you had bitcoin a few years back having perceived it may/will grow in value and dump it now, you will have lots more "real" currency which you value now.

You have your opinions and others have theirs, you can laugh all you want about me or others with bitcoin. In the end at different points of time based in the perception ppl have of the situation you will see who is laughing, but I have to tell you strictly at this point of time it's clear who is getting the real laughs and who is laughing based on sour grapes.

 

Let's see then. Only time will tell but I trust the economic knowledge that was imparted to me in school than you.  I rather be in the same camp as alan greenspan & china government than to be in your camp. I will stop here and I wish you luck in your bitcoin investment.  Please get out early while you still can......that's my advice.



#19

Posted 11 December 2013 - 12:18 AM

Manmaster

For your own knowledge....

 

What is legal tender?

 

Legal tender is not a term or condition in a business contract.  It is a constitutional law which has to be enacted, approved & passed in the parliament.  This is not something that 2 parties agreed upon in a business contract and it would become a legal tender and expect everyone to follow it.  Would any country label another currency as legal tender in its own country? The answer is NEVER!  Why? This will undermine its own currency.  Therefore, every currency is only legal tender in its own country.  You can't enforce another country to accept your currency and that's the reason why you need to do currency exchanges when you visit other countries.  Nobody in his own capacity can make a currency legal tender. Only the government can!



#20

Posted 11 December 2013 - 09:23 AM

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I don't know if Bitcoin is good or not

 

but if it fell to $1. I will buy some.

 

So far my investment in toto and 4d

 

has got me a return of exactly 0.

 

So how bad can my return in Bitcoin be

 

if I invested in it?

 

[grin]


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