Jump to content

MyCarForum Logo
Search
Magnifying glass
  • Search this thread
  • Reply to this topic
137 replies to this topic | 388 praises

#1

Posted 11 September 2016 - 10:19 AM

Superyandao
  • THREAD STARTER
  • Superyandao
    3rd Gear
    The points of the user determines the rank. The higher the points, the higher the rank.
    Author Image
    The bar represents the rank and points of the user. The longer the bar, the higher the rank and points.
     
    Points:
    Points are accumulated from other users who Praise or Disliked this users' posts.
    276
      Joined: 18 September 2007
      Posts: 242
     
I have found this, anyone has the idea;

Personal experience base on 1 of my family car from parallel importers.Many PI & Used Car Reseller have warranty service under this "Optima Workz".
I stop going back to this work after 9mths and void the warranty all together after my brand new car was under recall list - suppose to be recall for replacement. Nothing was done after check up(no recall replacement of parts), stating it is okay - WTF. Went to PI and PI push back to workshop, after 3 mths of argument and ban table . I give up and end of the day, I ask my japan colleague to order a brand new part(base on recall stated new part number) and hand carry back from japan since I travel up there a few times a year for business.
My 2 cents base on so called PI Waranty is just bull shit.

#2

Posted 11 September 2016 - 07:38 PM

Leo72
  • Leo72
    4th Gear
    The points of the user determines the rank. The higher the points, the higher the rank.
    Author Image
    The bar represents the rank and points of the user. The longer the bar, the higher the rank and points.
     
    Points:
    Points are accumulated from other users who Praise or Disliked this users' posts.
    904
      Joined: 01 December 2006
      Posts: 589
     

I have found this, anyone has the idea;

Personal experience base on 1 of my family car from parallel importers.Many PI & Used Car Reseller have warranty service under this "Optima Workz".
I stop going back to this work after 9mths and void the warranty all together after my brand new car was under recall list - suppose to be recall for replacement. Nothing was done after check up(no recall replacement of parts), stating it is okay - WTF. Went to PI and PI push back to workshop, after 3 mths of argument and ban table . I give up and end of the day, I ask my japan colleague to order a brand new part(base on recall stated new part number) and hand carry back from japan since I travel up there a few times a year for business.
My 2 cents base on so called PI Waranty is just bull shit.

If you know your car is under recall and PI refuse to act on it, just write to LTA and let LTA handle from there.

 

I know that my car is under recall, LTA website reflected the recall detail and I'm still waiting for PI to inform me to do the replacement but till date still no news. As I'm busy recently, will call up the PI and see how they respond. If push here and there, will just write to LTA with the detail and let LTA handle it.


Sdf4786k praised this
Tailgater and road hogger, please stay away from me. Queue cutter, please cut queue behind me.

#3

Posted 11 September 2016 - 07:51 PM

Soya
  • Soya
    2Fast2Furious
    The points of the user determines the rank. The higher the points, the higher the rank.
    Author Image
    The bar represents the rank and points of the user. The longer the bar, the higher the rank and points.
     
    Points:
    Points are accumulated from other users who Praise or Disliked this users' posts.
    22,857
      Joined: 16 August 2002
      Posts: 16,751
     

LTA collected your COE liao.....u tink they will bother? Wun be surprised if they push u to the PI to settle as they will prob say their job is to publish recall onli, not enforce....

 



#4

Posted 11 September 2016 - 08:07 PM

Char
  • Char
    5th Gear
    The points of the user determines the rank. The higher the points, the higher the rank.
    Author Image
    The bar represents the rank and points of the user. The longer the bar, the higher the rank and points.
     
    Points:
    Points are accumulated from other users who Praise or Disliked this users' posts.
    1,178
      Joined: 23 September 2006
      Posts: 1,471
     

I have found this, anyone has the idea;

Personal experience base on 1 of my family car from parallel importers.Many PI & Used Car Reseller have warranty service under this "Optima Workz".
I stop going back to this work after 9mths and void the warranty all together after my brand new car was under recall list - suppose to be recall for replacement. Nothing was done after check up(no recall replacement of parts), stating it is okay - WTF. Went to PI and PI push back to workshop, after 3 mths of argument and ban table . I give up and end of the day, I ask my japan colleague to order a brand new part(base on recall stated new part number) and hand carry back from japan since I travel up there a few times a year for business.
My 2 cents base on so called PI Waranty is just bull shit.

Pls share from which PI ?
MercutioV praised this

#5

Posted 11 September 2016 - 08:37 PM

merc280v6
  • merc280v6
    4th Gear
    The points of the user determines the rank. The higher the points, the higher the rank.
    Author Image
    The bar represents the rank and points of the user. The longer the bar, the higher the rank and points.
     
    Points:
    Points are accumulated from other users who Praise or Disliked this users' posts.
    789
      Joined: 12 June 2016
      Posts: 565
     
LTA will not enforce recall.
If you buy from PI, you're basically on your own.
PI warranty-workshops are a whole load of BS - just to give the new buyer a false sense of security.
Even if you send your PI car for normal servicing, workshop will ask you what service you want done, not the other way around! They do not have a standard serving schedule at all.
So you don't know what you don't know ... until car breaks down.
Jp66, Soya, Micb, Fuelsaver and Vratenza praised this

#6

Posted 11 September 2016 - 09:46 PM

t0y0ta
  • t0y0ta
    5th Gear
    The points of the user determines the rank. The higher the points, the higher the rank.
    Author Image
    The bar represents the rank and points of the user. The longer the bar, the higher the rank and points.
     
    Points:
    Points are accumulated from other users who Praise or Disliked this users' posts.
    1,219
      Joined: 24 December 2014
      Posts: 561
     

There is a reason why the Authorised Distributors do ask for premium in their car price.

 

You go PI, basically take the car and settle everything yourself.

 

Yes, PI "warranty" is illusion to hook naive buyers.


Vratenza praised this

#7

Posted 11 September 2016 - 09:51 PM

Soya
  • Soya
    2Fast2Furious
    The points of the user determines the rank. The higher the points, the higher the rank.
    Author Image
    The bar represents the rank and points of the user. The longer the bar, the higher the rank and points.
     
    Points:
    Points are accumulated from other users who Praise or Disliked this users' posts.
    22,857
      Joined: 16 August 2002
      Posts: 16,751
     

LTA will not enforce recall.
If you buy from PI, you're basically on your own.
PI warranty-workshops are a whole load of BS - just to give the new buyer a false sense of security.
Even if you send your PI car for normal servicing, workshop will ask you what service you want done, not the other way around! They do not have a standard serving schedule at all.
So you don't know what you don't know ... until car breaks down.

If recall by PI fail n then try getting recourse thru Lemon Law, another good luck.

Basically, not confident that all these so-called regulations got proper enforcers. PI n shady used car dealers know this n are basically laughing at the toothless system.

Even ppl like Jover Chew have been getting away wif it for a long time even tho "regulations" exist but no gahmen agency seems to bother to enforce anything until the problem went viral.....
antelop praised this

#8

Posted 11 September 2016 - 09:52 PM

ER-3682
  • Premium member
    ER-3682
    Supercharged
    The points of the user determines the rank. The higher the points, the higher the rank.
    Author Image
    The bar represents the rank and points of the user. The longer the bar, the higher the rank and points.
     
    Points:
    Points are accumulated from other users who Praise or Disliked this users' posts.
    6,105
      Joined: 23 November 2009
      Posts: 4,809
     

That is the "Risks" of buying P.I.. [bigcry] Some bought  P.I. Mercedes Benz & BMW more trouble,P.I. workshop,unable to solve problems,because WS no proper equipment,ask owner go to AD,AD needs to collect up to $20,000 "adaption" fees from Owner before the car can be repair by AD.... [mad]


Vratenza praised this

Fairlady.


#9

Posted 11 September 2016 - 09:55 PM

Bismarck
  • Bismarck
    NOS-ed
    The points of the user determines the rank. The higher the points, the higher the rank.
    Author Image
    The bar represents the rank and points of the user. The longer the bar, the higher the rank and points.
     
    Points:
    Points are accumulated from other users who Praise or Disliked this users' posts.
    14,164
      Joined: 24 May 2009
      Posts: 4,012
     

If recall by PI fail n then try getting recourse thru Lemon Law, another good luck.

Basically, not confident that all these so-called regulations got proper enforcers. PI n shady used car dealers know this n are basically laughing at the toothless system.

Even ppl like Jover Chew have been getting away wif it for a long time even tho "regulations" exist but no gahmen agency seems to bother to enforce anything until the problem went viral.....

 

The only way there is enforcement is when the government agencies can earn money or some form of benefit derived out of it. 


Soya praised this
"I am the normal one"
"It’s really difficult looking for glasses without glasses.”
"I would never sign an a**hole just because he is great at football"
"Please don't ask me this shit"
"Sorry I said it twice"
[laugh]

#10

Posted 11 September 2016 - 10:54 PM

Camrysfa
  • Premium member
    Camrysfa
    NOS-ed
    The points of the user determines the rank. The higher the points, the higher the rank.
    Author Image
    The bar represents the rank and points of the user. The longer the bar, the higher the rank and points.
     
    Points:
    Points are accumulated from other users who Praise or Disliked this users' posts.
    17,259
      Joined: 15 July 2012
      Posts: 3,958
     

For B&B cars, PI cars may be $10K lower.

 

http://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/transport/parallel-imports-zoom-ahead-in-car-sales

 

Parallel imports zoom ahead in car sales in Q1 2016….

In the case of Honda, parallel imports actually outsold cars registered by authorised agent Kah Motor, driven by the popularity of the Vezel compact crossover.

 

Businessman Desmond Koh, 57, said he picked a Honda Vezel from a parallel importer "mainly because of the lower cost".

 

Today, parallel importers are retailing the car at around $100,000 - at least $10,000 lower than Kah Motor's equivalent HR-V.

 

Mr Koh said: "The other thing is that the model is so popular, I don't have to worry about availability of spare parts."

 

­­

st_20160514_ctparallel_2290449.jpg

 


F355 praised this

#11

Posted 12 September 2016 - 12:20 AM

King_Kong
  • Premium member
    King_Kong
    2nd Gear
    The points of the user determines the rank. The higher the points, the higher the rank.
    Author Image
    The bar represents the rank and points of the user. The longer the bar, the higher the rank and points.
     
    Points:
    Points are accumulated from other users who Praise or Disliked this users' posts.
    187
      Joined: 28 May 2015
      Posts: 12
     

In a normal business, the manufacturer warrants the product, usually against design and manufacturing defects. If the manufacturer is unable to provide the warranty directly, it appoints someone to do it. The cost of warranty is underwritten by the manufacturer, ie it is the manufacturer's responsibility and expense to provide the warranty.

 

In the case of the Singapore car business, there is no warranty to speak of.  Merchants are now using the term warranty to make money.  A few smart businessmen thought up of a get-rich-quick plan to generate a continuous income stream from gullible car owners.  They set up a company, go round to the car sellers and offer to pay dealers $1,000 per car sold to provide "warranty".  So the car dealer tells the buyer that the warranty is provided by so and so Company.  

 

That Company sends you a booklet stating the terms, which, if you read carefully, contains no warranty.  It simply requires you to send in your car once every three months for five years and pay them an enormous sum each time to change oil (which typically costs $10-$20 elsewhere), failing which the "warranty" is voided. The T&Cs also require that you must pay for repairs when the Company says that what and what must be replaced, failing which the "warranty" is voided.

 

So, typically, every quarter you pay $150 to change oil.  Every six months, or whenever the owner of the Company spends a bit more on karaoke, you pay $800 to change some parts.

 

What is the "warranty" given in that booklet?  It is for things that will not break.  Everything that can break are under wear and tear and excluded from the "warranty".  The Company does not even have a single Honda certified engineer.

 

The warranty scheme is thus an innovative business idea (some call it a scam) which some bright spark thought of to make money. He pays the car seller to provide warranty, imagine that!  By now you should be able to guess where he gets the money from.

 

There is no consumer protection in Singapore to speak of.  CASE is a weakling that pretends it has not heard of any problems because no one has made a police report.  What are you the car buyer to do?

 

What are your chances of getting cancer?  It is not zero.  However, you can reduce the chances of cancer by observing some good healthy habits, like not smoking, etc etc etc.

 

What are the chances of your car breaking down?  It is not zero.  However, you can reduce the chances of your car breaking down by observing some good healthy habits as follows:

 

a. Buy only a Japanese car,   AND

b. Buy only a car manufactured in Japan,  AND

c. Buy only a car that is used by actual Japanese customers on Japanese roads,  AND

d. Buy only a car that is used by the (millions in Japan and) tens of thousands in Singapore.

 

By observing the four rules above, you reduce your chances of car trouble greatly.  And if you are really unlucky and fall outside the six sigma, the thousands dollars of savings per year by not going to the Company should be sufficient to pay for the unfortunate repairs.

 

"Authorized" dealers has also learned from this trick thought of by the Company.  Now, "Authorized" dealers require that you send your car at a similar frequency for $150 oil change, and $800 parts change now and then. But they include orange juice and free wi-fi while you wait.

 

Now to explain the four conditions I listed above:

 

a. Whether you like it or not, Japanese engineering is Japanese engineering. Notice that Audi comes with a fleet of support cars to come to your aid when you break down?  When you buy continental or American, you need to buy road-side service. The only service I want for my car is to just top up petrol.

 

b. Whether you like it or not, Japanese manufacturing is Japanese manufacturing.

 

c. Whether you like it or not, a Japanese customer is a Japanese customer with certain demands which when met by a Japanese manufacturer can save you lots of trouble.

 

d. It is a simple case of safety in numbers. When you bring your Saab with a problem to the workshop, the mechanics spend half a day tearing down your car and still can't figure out what is wrong, as your problem is the first time they are seeing it.  If you are unlucky enough to bring in your Toyota, most likely the reaction is, "Oh, there is a TSB (technical service bulletin) for that. It should be fixed in 30 minutes."

 

I live by the above rules for the past two decades.  I bought a 3-liter Toyota Harrier (half the cars that come off this manufacturing line are slapped with the Lexus logo, the other half with the Toyota logo).  I sent it in for oil change just once, the 5,000-km one.  After that, I just changed oil and filter myself once every six months to a year. Not a single problem. De-registered it at the five-year mark to get back $98,000 of ARF.  I was almost certain I could drive the second five years with just another oil change, given its Lexus engineering.

 

Bought a RAV4 (from "PI", as only "PI" has a made-in-Japan RAV4) for $84,000 from the refund. I used this car for the full ten years.  I changed oil & filter once every 10 to 18 months.  Not a single problem.  The only additional expense was changing of brake pads at the 8-year mark.

 

I now have a Vezel.  Keeping my fingers crossed.

 

 


Edited by King_Kong, 12 September 2016 - 12:38 AM.

Tenghock, Heartlander, Soya, Wormee, Showster, BanCoe, Ender, 19 other members and 2 Anonymous members praised this

#12

Posted 12 September 2016 - 08:50 AM

Soya
  • Soya
    2Fast2Furious
    The points of the user determines the rank. The higher the points, the higher the rank.
    Author Image
    The bar represents the rank and points of the user. The longer the bar, the higher the rank and points.
     
    Points:
    Points are accumulated from other users who Praise or Disliked this users' posts.
    22,857
      Joined: 16 August 2002
      Posts: 16,751
     

Excellent write up, king_kong!  [thumbsup]  [thumbsup]

 

Hmmmm.....gorillas are smarter than some of our LTA scholars after all  [:p]

 


Beehive3783 praised this

#13

Posted 12 September 2016 - 09:02 AM

Wt_know
  • Wt_know
    2Fast2Furious
    The points of the user determines the rank. The higher the points, the higher the rank.
    Author Image
    The bar represents the rank and points of the user. The longer the bar, the higher the rank and points.
     
    Points:
    Points are accumulated from other users who Praise or Disliked this users' posts.
    32,663
      Joined: 07 March 2005
      Posts: 16,949
     
buy PI conti ... no $30k saving no talk
with $30k saving ... then no risk no gain ... no complain

want cheap and good ... get PI Vezel
if sg workshop cannot help ... even JB got unlimited professional to fix Vezel/ HRV

That is the "Risks" of buying P.I.. [bigcry] Some bought P.I. Mercedes Benz & BMW more trouble,P.I. workshop,unable to solve problems,because WS no proper equipment,ask owner go to AD,AD needs to collect up to $20,000 "adaption" fees from Owner before the car can be repair by AD.... [mad]


Edited by Wt_know, 12 September 2016 - 09:04 AM.

Vratenza and 1 Anonymous member praised this

#14

Posted 12 September 2016 - 09:39 AM

Beng2
  • Beng2
    5th Gear
    The points of the user determines the rank. The higher the points, the higher the rank.
    Author Image
    The bar represents the rank and points of the user. The longer the bar, the higher the rank and points.
     
    Points:
    Points are accumulated from other users who Praise or Disliked this users' posts.
    1,092
      Joined: 16 September 2007
      Posts: 946
     

Correct me if I'm wrong: wasn't there some talk about LTA making it compulsory for AD to attend to PI cars for recall if that particular PI closed shop already?

 

Speaking of recall, I read online that Honda Malaysia will rectify the airbags of the PI Honda cars in Malaysia - FOC.

As for Toyota there, it's your problem if you bought non-AD imported Toyotas. 

 

 



#15

Posted 12 September 2016 - 09:48 AM

Kusje
  • Kusje
    NOS-ed
    The points of the user determines the rank. The higher the points, the higher the rank.
    Author Image
    The bar represents the rank and points of the user. The longer the bar, the higher the rank and points.
     
    Points:
    Points are accumulated from other users who Praise or Disliked this users' posts.
    16,291
      Joined: 05 July 2007
      Posts: 7,847
     

Correct me if I'm wrong: wasn't there some talk about LTA making it compulsory for AD to attend to PI cars for recall if that particular PI closed shop already?

 

Speaking of recall, I read online that Honda Malaysia will rectify the airbags of the PI Honda cars in Malaysia - FOC.

As for Toyota there, it's your problem if you bought non-AD imported Toyotas. 

 

Huh? Was there really such talk?

 

LTA gone crazy and trying to pawn off the responsibility on a third party competitor of the PI? 


That is all.

#16

Posted 12 September 2016 - 10:23 AM

BanCoe
  • BanCoe
    NOS-ed
    The points of the user determines the rank. The higher the points, the higher the rank.
    Author Image
    The bar represents the rank and points of the user. The longer the bar, the higher the rank and points.
     
    Points:
    Points are accumulated from other users who Praise or Disliked this users' posts.
    11,952
      Joined: 06 April 2015
      Posts: 2,608
     

I have found this, anyone has the idea;

Personal experience base on 1 of my family car from parallel importers.Many PI & Used Car Reseller have warranty service under this "Optima Workz".
I stop going back to this work after 9mths and void the warranty all together after my brand new car was under recall list - suppose to be recall for replacement. Nothing was done after check up(no recall replacement of parts), stating it is okay - WTF. Went to PI and PI push back to workshop, after 3 mths of argument and ban table . I give up and end of the day, I ask my japan colleague to order a brand new part(base on recall stated new part number) and hand carry back from japan since I travel up there a few times a year for business.
My 2 cents base on so called PI Waranty is just bull shit.

Maybe you can mention car make and model and also mention PI name as he already has messed up your thing (at your discretion of course)

 

Why did you stop going to Optima ?? You would still been having your Credits for free servicing etc... (I guess so) OR  did you stop going to Optima because of the recall issue??     



#17

Posted 12 September 2016 - 10:55 AM

King_Kong
  • Premium member
    King_Kong
    2nd Gear
    The points of the user determines the rank. The higher the points, the higher the rank.
    Author Image
    The bar represents the rank and points of the user. The longer the bar, the higher the rank and points.
     
    Points:
    Points are accumulated from other users who Praise or Disliked this users' posts.
    187
      Joined: 28 May 2015
      Posts: 12
     

Please don't follow my bad oil changing habits.

 

Should always change oil regularly, at about 10,000km.  The labor cost is usually about $10/$20 if you don't want to crawl underneath yourself, which incidentally is much easier for a "high" vehicle like the Vezel.  Of course most mechanics will want you to buy oil and filter from them unless you can find a friendly one.

 

The parts market in Singapore is not developed because most people don't do things themselves. You can't just buy oil filters from Giant.  I get my original Honda/Toyota oil filters at about $6 each time from a parts supplier.

 

Perhaps with sufficient Vezel volume and critical mass, Giant might just stock oil filters for the Vezel.  Giant, are you listening?



#18

Posted 12 September 2016 - 11:16 AM

jcchia
  • Premium member
    jcchia
    1st Gear
    The points of the user determines the rank. The higher the points, the higher the rank.
    Author Image
    The bar represents the rank and points of the user. The longer the bar, the higher the rank and points.
     
    Points:
    Points are accumulated from other users who Praise or Disliked this users' posts.
    53
      Joined: 08 October 2015
      Posts: 28
     

LTA collected your COE liao.....u tink they will bother? Wun be surprised if they push u to the PI to settle as they will prob say their job is to publish recall onli, not enforce....

LTA collect coe, U paid for it. Its yr desire to purchase a car not LTA insisted.
If u choose to buy from wrong PI, blame yourself not others.

#19

Posted 12 September 2016 - 11:56 AM

Watwheels
  • Premium member
    Watwheels
    2Fast2Furious
    The points of the user determines the rank. The higher the points, the higher the rank.
    Author Image
    The bar represents the rank and points of the user. The longer the bar, the higher the rank and points.
     
    Points:
    Points are accumulated from other users who Praise or Disliked this users' posts.
    41,306
      Joined: 21 May 2006
      Posts: 22,850
     

I have found this, anyone has the idea;

Personal experience base on 1 of my family car from parallel importers.Many PI & Used Car Reseller have warranty service under this "Optima Workz".
I stop going back to this work after 9mths and void the warranty all together after my brand new car was under recall list - suppose to be recall for replacement. Nothing was done after check up(no recall replacement of parts), stating it is okay - WTF. Went to PI and PI push back to workshop, after 3 mths of argument and ban table . I give up and end of the day, I ask my japan colleague to order a brand new part(base on recall stated new part number) and hand carry back from japan since I travel up there a few times a year for business.
My 2 cents base on so called PI Waranty is just bull shit.

 

When it comes to recall AD also act blur. I'm speaking from experience. I call up the AD and ask why wasn't I informed of the recall. They claimed that they had sent out letters to inform owners. All of which are BS. If I didn't check the LTA website the AD just di gong di siao and got away with it. The car was out of warranty but this recall involves the airbag which can kill. To the dealers all these recall issues are costly they couldn't care less about the owner. As to LTA such recall issues are too many and too tedious to enforce. I bet at the end of it they will tell you they do not have the manpower.


Edited by Watwheels, 12 September 2016 - 11:59 AM.

antelop praised this
The chosen one will bring balance to the Force...I mean Singapore. Even star wars do not reserve "the chosen one" to a sith lord or a jedi or a wookie.

#20

Posted 12 September 2016 - 12:10 PM

Davidtch
  • Premium member
    Davidtch
    NOS-ed
    The points of the user determines the rank. The higher the points, the higher the rank.
    Author Image
    The bar represents the rank and points of the user. The longer the bar, the higher the rank and points.
     
    Points:
    Points are accumulated from other users who Praise or Disliked this users' posts.
    19,656
      Joined: 18 March 2006
      Posts: 12,836
     

buy PI conti ... no $30k saving no talk
with $30k saving ... then no risk no gain ... no complain

want cheap and good ... get PI Vezel
if sg workshop cannot help ... even JB got unlimited professional to fix Vezel/ HRV
 

 

I will not buy Merc/BMW from PI.

 

100% kenna carrot big time.

 

Despite the saving, only got half (or less) of the option sold by AD.


Please don't follow my bad oil changing habits.

 

Should always change oil regularly, at about 10,000km.  The labor cost is usually about $10/$20 if you don't want to crawl underneath yourself, which incidentally is much easier for a "high" vehicle like the Vezel.  Of course most mechanics will want you to buy oil and filter from them unless you can find a friendly one.

 

The parts market in Singapore is not developed because most people don't do things themselves. You can't just buy oil filters from Giant.  I get my original Honda/Toyota oil filters at about $6 each time from a parts supplier.

 

Perhaps with sufficient Vezel volume and critical mass, Giant might just stock oil filters for the Vezel.  Giant, are you listening?

 

I think the parts market is well developed as long as owner bother to find the respective part supplier.

 

For my 1st car (Nissan Sunny), i buy my own parts from Nissan parts shop along Serangoon road & get it serviced in backward of Mechanic home.  It was my 2nd cheapest car in terms of maintenance.

 

The best Toyota Plant is Tahara.  Sadly, no many Toyota produced from this plant nowadays.
 


Edited by Davidtch, 12 September 2016 - 12:14 PM.



Back to General Car Discussion  ·  Cars Top Reply to this topic
SgCarMart Quotz



Quick Reply



0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users