'Little' Lewis in Monza

[Abba]

Even Lauda has lashed out at Lewis...a true making of a World Champ.....reckless & brash ....read on

 

Former triple World Champion Niki Lauda, usually an admirer of the current championship leader, said after Fuji that he is "disappointed" with Lewis Hamilton.

 

Briton Hamilton, 23, escaped the Japanese Grand Prix with a slightly diminished five-point advantage over Ferrari's Felipe Massa.

 

But the McLaren driver's run to just twelfth place rekindled memories of last season, when he dramatically lost a huge points advantage at the final two races.

 

"I am disappointed with Lewis," Lauda told N-TV.de. "He threw away the championship last year in the same way -- with absolutely unnecessary risks."

 

The Austrian legend is presumably referring to the first corner incident in Japan, for which Hamilton was penalised after boldly trying to re-pass Kimi Raikkonen and flat-spotting his tyres to the canvas.

 

Hamilton was later tapped into a spin when trying to pass title rival Felipe Massa, who was penalised for the collision.

 

"On a day when he needed to stay out of trouble, he clashed with not one Ferrari but both," wrote the correspondent for the British newspaper The Mirror.

 

His on-track habits aside, Hamilton is also commonly criticised for his brash public image.

 

Even the Briton on Monday admitted that there are plenty of unfavourable quotes attributed to him doing the rounds at present.

 

He said: "For sure, it's not easy to always say or do the right thing, and when you're constantly being scrutinised it can be particularly difficult."

[Robin]

Like it or not, he's doing very well in a F1 car.

 

yup not bad... only his second season

[Robin]

maybe they should let him drive a kart instead of a F1 car

 

his style suits Junior kart series, all b*lls and no brains

 

i guess junior kart langgar still ok. but F1 langgar ..... ...

[Kangz]

You have said it, Lewis would not be competitive in a less competitive car.

 

Alonso developed a under performing Renault and brought it back to back Championship, after he left the Renault was ailing. Guess what, he's back to Renault and developed the car to 2 back to back wins; I guess the Renault can pilot themselvs on the track and win races

 

Let's put it this way. During Renault's championship winning years, its cars are never slow in the first place. Sure it may not be as fast as the Ferraris or the McLarens, but it is reliable and has a damn good traction control. And it also helps that Alonso did not have a strong team mate to fight against.

 

We are talking about driving in uncompetitive cars here. Has Alonso won any race before Singapore? Where did he finish most of the time in an uncompetitive car? Sure he may have a hand in developing the car, but I think most of the credit should go to the engineers working behind the scene. The Renault that you see today is not the same mid field contender we saw in the earlier season. Will Alonso win in a Force India, or even MS? Dream on.

[Caparo]

Wow, someone just learnt to Google and Paste too.

 

You are a quick learner.

[Terry3922t]

I still don't know whether you are pro-racing or pro-hooliganism (although gangsterism would be a more appropriate word, I'll stick with hooliganism for consistency).

 

Seeing that you have only a single horse to flog, ie. what other drivers are saying about LH's reckless driving, let me share with you here an interesting article whereby Alonso and Schumacher (who was speaking for all drivers) were quoted (I too know how to google, cut and paste).

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/rpm/news/story?id=1832917

 

Danger exists, but it's not a focal point

By Dan Knutson

 

Special to ESPN.com

Updated: July 1, 2004, 6:18 PM ET

 

MAGNY-COURS, France -- Motor racing is dangerous. There is no getting around that truth, and the accidents in the recent Grand Prix races in Monaco and Indianapolis prove that Formula One is not exempt from that fact.

 

But F1 drivers aren't lining up to quit their jobs.

 

"A lot of people think what we do is completely crazy," Williams BMW driver Juan Pablo Montoya said from the Magny-Cours paddock on the day before practice began for the French Grand Prix. "I think it is pretty much normal. This is what I do every week. If I feel that driving the car is completely outrageous, why would I get into the car?

 

"Ask anybody who does skydiving, and they say, 'Oh, that's nothing.' I wouldn't jump out of a plane even if you paid me money to do it!"

 

Safety issues are of great concern to F1 drivers, but once they climb into the car and head onto the track, they do not focus at all on the danger factor. F1 drivers are not unique in this aspect; it's a common trait from the best professional drivers in the world down to the amateurs who compete for fun on weekends.

 

"I personally don't feel any worry when I'm in the car," Renault's Fernando Alonso said. "As soon as the race starts, I feel completely safe. When you lose a car, or when I lost the car at Indianapolis, after the first movement I knew that nothing was going to happen to me, because the car is very safe. So from that point of view, I think us drivers feel 100 percent safe when we have a crash. But at the same time, we know that speeds are very high and we are in a sport where the risk is always there."

 

Six-time World Champion Michael Schumacher had to sit out six races of the 1999 season after breaking his leg when he crashed in the British Grand Prix. He is one of the directors of the Grand Prix Drivers Association, which always has safety on its agenda, and he's been a staunch supporter of F1's ruling body (FIA) in its safety campaigns.

But, like virtually all drivers, once Schumacher climbs into the cockpit he flicks that mental switch.

 

"We drivers, I guess I can talk for the drivers, we normally don't think about the danger," Schumacher said. "You just think about it when you are close to maybe having an accident, because in general you feel really safe in what you do. You know that you have a big safety (net) around you, different to motorcycling, and you just feel good in what you do.

 

"When you have a moment, and you know consequently that there could have been an accident, then the adrenalin goes up. But then you forget about it and you go, because we just do things to the limit, not really over the limit, and that is why we feel good about it."

 

When a driver does have a big accident, like Ralf Schumacher's in Indianapolis, his thoughts are not on retirement but on how soon he can race again.

 

"It's up to him," Montoya said when asked if he thought his teammate Schumacher should retire. "I am pretty happy racing. I think he is pretty happy racing."

 

But does there come a point where a driver's well-stocked bank account sways him to retire rather than face the danger?

 

"It depends, do you do it because you love it or do you do it because of the money?" Montoya asked.

 

You do it because you love it ...

 

"Exactly," Montoya said.

 

But is it worth risking your life for?

 

"I don't see it like I'm risking my life," Montoya replied. "If I feel like I was risking my life I wouldn't be racing. It would be stupid."

 

Montoya has never been injured in an F1 car, but he has had several big accidents.

"Last year in Silverstone I hit head-on into the tires, the car caught fire, and I hit head-on," Montoya said. "I was lucky I hit some tires, but I destroyed the car completely. And I was lucky that nothing happened to me. But you get back in the car."

 

There is a debate going on now whether the speeds in F1 have escalated to levels that are too dangerous. But that is not the point here, and that's a whole different issue. No matter what speed you race at, there will always be an element of danger.

 

"At the end of the day, Formula One is dangerous," Toyota driver Olivier Panis said. "That's what I feel."

 

Dan Knutson covers Formula One for National Speed Sport News and ESPN.com.

 

------------

 

If Schumacher can be believed, and I know he can, those other drivers who are complaining about LH are probably in the wrong profession.

 

Another interesting bit of trivia for you (which you can google too). Hamilton may possibly be the only driver on the F1 grid who is not a member of the GPDA (Grand Prix Drivers Association). He was invited to join in 2007 but snubbed them (probably because Alonso was inducted as a director in the same year - but this is only my guess). So why am I not surprised that Hamilton does not have many friends on the grid?

Edited October 16, 2008 by Terry3922t

[Abba]

So many drivers on the grid has slammed Lewis for his on track driving dangeropus and risky antics; even Flavio & Lauda has spoken against Lewis and now Bernie has even called Lewis "ARROGANT". Yet to see a single prominant F1 personnel support for Lewis' driving antics maybe just a few MCF forumers

 

It all over the news so I won't even bother quoting any of them.

 

Let's not get confused on "Dangers of Motorsport" and "Causing Danger" on the track thru ones actions. The 2 are very very different

[Terry3922t]

So many drivers on the grid has slammed Lewis for his on track driving dangeropus and risky antics

 

---------------

 

OK, one last post and let's enjoy the race tomorrow. I am aware that there were many reports about drivers slating LH in the press. But the strange thing is this: whilst these drivers purportedly said a lot to the press behind LH's back, it seems that they have nothing much to say in his presence.

 

I paste below excerpts from both the Thurs' FIA Conference in Shanghai and the Friday night's drive meeting for your reference:

 

Thursday's FIA press conference

Thursday 16th October 2008

 

Fernando Alonso, Kimi Raikkonen, Lewis Hamilton and Robert Kubica attended Thursday's press conference in China.

 

Q: (Chris Lines - AP) Robert, you made some comments last week about Lewis's driving at Monza, said that some of his overtaking was dangerous. Can I ask you to comment further on that and whether you have discussed this directly with Lewis?

 

RK: I think there is nothing more to comment on. When one driver is overtaking another one and crossing his line just in front of his wheel, it's quite dangerous, especially if someone behind has to lift off. I have been involved in an accident in a similar situation in Canada and I know what it means when a front wheel hits a rear wheel and from my point of view it's quite dangerous. I just say this: while nothing happens everything is fine but if something happens then I think everyone will realise. That's all. We haven't spoken. I didn't make a comment about Lewis, I just said overall that these kinds of moves are pretty dangerous, especially in wet conditions. That's all.

 

Q: (Ian Parkes - The Press Association) Lewis, do you feel your driving is at all dangerous in any way?

 

LH: Not really. Q: (Ian Parkes - The Press Association) Do Fernando or Kimi feel anything about Lewis's driving this season, that perhaps it's been a bit over the edge?

 

KR: No comment.

 

FA: No comment.

 

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/71493

 

Hamilton: Success vindicates my driving By Jonathan Noble Friday, October 17th 2008, 11:49 GMT

 

Lewis Hamilton believes his approach to racing is vindicated by the success he has enjoyed in Formula One, as fellow drivers chose to move on from the controversy surrounding his tactics in Friday night's drivers' briefing.

 

Although brief references were made to issues raised by Hamilton's driving in the Japanese Grand Prix during the regular briefing, the matters were dealt with in a typical and straightforward way by FIA race director Charlie Whiting.

 

And Hamilton, who left the briefing stating everything had been 'fine', was unmoved by the wave of stories and comments surrounding his driving standards that had emerged in the wake of the Fuji event.

 

"I've not read the stuff, but I know people have made comments," said Hamilton, who could win the championship in China this weekend. "That's fine with me. They have the right to their own opinion.

 

"It's a shame they all think that way, but my driving is why I'm here and why I'm leading the championship, so I'm not disappointed with the way I drive. I do my talking on the track. If other people want to expend their energy thinking about it (the way I drive), that's for them.

 

He added: "The reason I'm here is because of the way I drive. And, as you can see, I don't clash with people, so they can't be that aggressive."

 

"If I was in a Force India at the back of the field then no-one would have anything to say about me. But everyone has something to say about the people who are at the front and are successful, and whether it's positive or negative it doesn't really matter. As long as I'm happy, the team is happy, then that's all that matters."

 

Suggestions from some quarters that the drivers' briefing would turn into a showdown between Hamilton and his rivals proved wide of the mark, as the matters that were due to be raised about aspects of his driving were swiftly dealt with.

 

It is understood Jarno Trulli did raise with Whiting the issue of Hamilton holding him up when he was lapping the McLaren in Japan, but the response was simply that it was the responsibility of teams to inform their drivers they were being lapped.

 

Sources have also revealed that Mark Webber chose to privately clarify the remarks he made yesterday about issues raised by Hamilton's first corner antics in Japan. Webber made it clear that he never suggested Hamilton was an on-track danger, as his comments had been interpreted in some publications.

 

David Coulthard said that the briefing had been totally normal, as the issues raised by what happened in Japan were reviewed as they usually are after each event.

 

"Obviously there were some conversations about understanding stewards' decisions," said Coulthard. "It was a normal drivers' briefing, and on we go with the race weekend."

 

The Red Bull Racing driver said there was no feeling of an anti-Hamilton feeling among the drivers about his driving. "I did not sense anything," he said. "No one raised any point on that. I think it had all been built up in the press conference on Thursday.

Hamilton himself has also played down any suggestion of his rivals ganging up on him, which had been manifested with a host of recent comments from drivers criticising him.

 

Speaking about whether he felt everybody was against him, Hamilton said: "Not really. I look at previous world champions and previous seasons, and a lot of people that have been at the front have had these kind of situations.

 

"It's normal. I have to ride the wind and see how the result comes out in the end." -----------------

[Kangz]

Lesson to be learnt? Don't blindly believe everything you read in the press. Some comments are taken out of context and then sensationalize to make a "better" story, but unfortunately it doesn't make it more newsworthy. It's scary how facts can often be twisted to mean a completely different thing.

 

Of course, some people out there will continue to quote those misguided reports simply because they suit his/her agenda. Other reports that attempt to clarify, educate and inform will be conveniently forgotten. How sad

Edited October 18, 2008 by Kangz

[Abba]

You left some real impt news, save your trouble to google

 

Lewis has shown us all his reckless and dangerous driving, the drivers and F1 prominant figures have spoken. I won't even bother to comment as it clear for all to see here

 

**********

Hamilton's driving faces further scrutiny

22:53 BST, Thu 16 Oct 2008

 

SHANGHAI (Reuters) - Formula One championship leader Lewis Hamilton's driving came under further scrutiny at the Chinese Grand Prix on Thursday after continuing complaints about his behaviour on the racetrack.

 

Toyota's Jarno Trulli and Red Bull's Mark Webber questioned the McLaren driver's conduct behind the wheel, echoing recent criticism from BMW-Sauber's Robert Kubica.

 

Italian Trulli told the autosport.com website he was unhappy at being held up when trying to lap the 23-year-old Briton, who could become the sport's youngest champion this weekend, in last week's Japanese Grand Prix.

 

"Lewis did not even watch the mirrors because he came back on the track right in front of me and he held me up for two laps," said Trulli.

 

"I will go in the drivers' briefing (on Friday) and I will say to (race director) Charlie (Whiting), this is what happened and I believe Lewis could have handled it in a different way because it was not fair."

 

Australian Webber, who last year accused Hamilton of erratic driving behind the safety car at Fuji, said the leader's wild start from pole position in Japan last Sunday had raised concerns.

 

"The braking areas is an issue because you cannot move around in the braking areas like that," said Webber, a director of the Grand Prix Drivers' Association.

 

"We lost a marshal at Monza when there were guys moving around in the braking areas and it is very hard to change your line if you don't know what is going to come. That is the only thing that we need to look at."

 

Fire marshal Paolo Ghislimberti was killed by debris after a pile-up at the second chicane in the 2000 Italian Grand Prix at Monza.

 

"The first corner in Fuji was pretty wild," said Webber. "He was having a crack, but if someone had been sitting on his right rear when he pulled out then that was a crash.

 

"We want to have a bit of a chat about moving around in the braking areas," added the Australian.

 

"I am not smashing Hamilton but it is about how you move on. Tiger Woods learns. Roger Federer learns. And Lewis is going through that."

 

Kubica, who crashed heavily in Canada last year and had questioned the safety of Hamilton's driving at Monza in September, clarified his position on Thursday.

 

"When one driver is overtaking another one and crossing his line just in front of his wheels, it's quite dangerous, especially if someone behind has to lift off," he told a news conference.

 

"I have been involved in an accident in a similar situation in Canada and I know what it means when a front wheel hits a rear wheel and from my point of view it's quite dangerous.

 

"I just say this: while nothing happens everything is fine but if something happens then I think everyone will realise. That's all."

 

Hamilton, who failed to score a point in Fuji, leads Ferrari's Felipe Massa by five points in the standings with two races remaining.

 

***********************

 

MILAN, Oct 17 (Reuters) - Lewis Hamilton will throw away the Formula One title again this year because he has learned nothing from last season's failure, according to Renault team boss Flavio Briatore.

 

"In my opinion Hamilton will try to throw the title away again," Friday's Gazzetta dello Sport newspaper quoted the Italian as saying at the Chinese Grand Prix.

 

"He and McLaren were amazing last year, to lose it with a 17-point lead and two races to go is Guinness Book of Records stuff.

 

"Now that he has a five point-lead, he could repeat the trick. For me, Massa will win the title."

 

The 23-year-old McLaren driver leads Ferrari's Felipe Massa by five points and can clinch his first title as the youngest champion on Sunday at the penultimate race of the season in Shanghai.

 

The Briton could also have won the title in China last year but ultimately lost out when Ferrari's Kimi Raikkonen made up a 17 point deficit in the final two races to win by a single point.

 

In Japan last weekend, Hamilton made a wild start and failed to score in a race that saw his lead over Massa cut from seven points.

 

"Hamilton has learnt nothing. We saw that in Japan," said Briatore, whose double world champion Fernando Alonso has won the last two races.

 

Alonso and Hamilton were feuding team mates at McLaren last year before the Spaniard, who recently made clear that he favours Massa, returned to Renault.

 

"You should tell him that he is a Formula One driver, not a Martian," said Briatore of Hamilton. "He is not Muhammad Ali. He is a young man who must still demonstrate his worth.

 

"He is a good driver but you see good drivers also taking results home. There are good (soccer) forwards who always hit the post or the bar and the ball never goes in.

 

"Then there are those that score and he hasn't scored yet."

 

The Italian also blasted McLaren, who were fined $100 million and stripped of their constructors' points for a spy saga involving Ferrari last season and also made allegations against Renault.

 

"It is logical that I support Ferrari, as an Italian, as Flavio Briatore, as Renault, for the relationship we have with Ferrari," he said.

 

"Instead McLaren accused us of spying, we went on for four months with this nonsense that never existed."

 

 

*********

Former champions urge Hamilton to keep his cool

20:17 BST, Tue 14 Oct 2008

 

By Alan Baldwin

 

LONDON (Reuters) - Britons Jackie Stewart and Damon Hill have told compatriot Lewis Hamilton he must keep his cool in the season's last two races if he is to join them as a Formula One champion.

 

The 23-year-old McLaren driver leads Ferrari's Brazilian Felipe Massa by five points and could become the sport's youngest champion if circumstances favour him in China this weekend.

 

However Hamilton failed to score in Japan on Sunday, reviving fears that history may be repeating itself after he allowed a commanding lead to slip through his fingers at the same stage last year.

 

"This was not his finest hour," triple champion Stewart told the RBS website (www.rbssport.com/f1), commenting on Hamilton's wild start and subsequent drive-through penalty at Fuji.

"His approach in that first corner was slightly arrogant to other drivers.

 

"The Japanese race demonstrated that Lewis is still very young, in only his second season, and although he comes across as very cool in interviews, he doesn't always have the same level of mind management when he's racing.

 

"Lewis Hamilton can still win the championship, but not if he drives the last two races the way he drove in Japan."

 

Both leading contenders have struggled for consistency in the final run to the title, with Massa finishing seventh in Japan and failing to score in the previous race in Singapore due to a team blunder at his first pitstop.

 

Renault's Fernando Alonso, the double world champion who was Hamilton's team mate and foe at McLaren in 2007, has won the last two races.

 

Hamilton had scored 107 points by this stage last year but currently leads with just 84.

 

Whoever wins the title will end up with the lowest overall tally by a champion since Ferrari's now-retired Michael Schumacher triumphed with 93 points in 2003.

 

"If Lewis keeps a cool head, then he'll be fine. I think he will get the job done," Hill, Britain's last champion with Williams in 1996, told BBC radio.

 

"There is no question about his speed or ability, he just needs to stay cool and let it happen.

 

"Lewis is impatient to win that first title but you can't force it.

 

"It is a mark of Lewis's career that he's always been very keen to get the job done and move on, and you need that impatience. But it can sometimes trip you up if you're not wary."

 

 

 

*********

 

Hamilton 'irritates' rivals - Ecclestone

17/10/08 16:34

 

Lewis Hamilton expected to be confronted today by fellow drivers during their traditional Friday meeting, with a few having previously voiced negative opinions regarding a few of his driving maneuvers.

 

As it turns out, the Shanghai drivers' briefing was apparently business as usual, although Hamilton conceded afterwards that he knows he is not popular among his peers.

 

"It's a shame they all think that way but my driving is why I'm here and why I'm leading the championship so I'm not disappointed with the way I drive," he said.

 

"If other people want to expend their energy thinking about it, that's for them."

 

The McLaren driver believes it is par for the course for World Champion contenders to take stick from their opponents.

 

"I look at previous World Champions and previous seasons, and a lot of people that have been at the front have had these kind of situations, it's normal," he said.

 

As for Bernie Ecclestone, the 77-year-old F1 chief executive told Auto Motor und Sport that Lewis Hamilton is "good for business."

 

He also knows why the championship leader is not popular among his peers: "Out of the car he is a little bit arrogant."

 

"I think he has slightly too high an opinion of himself and that irritates the other drivers," Ecclestone added.

 

*********

Hamilton pays for first corner gamble

15:21 BST, Sun 12 Oct 2008

By Alastair Himmer

 

FUJI, Japan (Reuters) - Lewis Hamilton paid the price for a moment of first corner madness at the Japanese Grand Prix on Sunday.

 

"It was a bad race, that's what happened," snapped the McLaren driver, who started on pole position but ended the day with his Formula One championship lead trimmed to five points with two races remaining after failing to score at Fuji.

 

"I made a mistake and I paid for it but this sort of thing happens."

 

The 23-year-old Briton was slapped with a drive-through penalty for cutting across Ferrari's Kimi Raikkonen in a frenetic dash to the first turn and finished 12th.

 

Hamilton's blunder was compounded when Ferrari's Felipe Massa, his closest title rival, finished eighth and was later promoted to seventh.

 

The error raised the spectre of a repeat of last year's failure, when the then-rookie allowed the title to slip from his grasp with Raikkonen wiping out a 17-point deficit over the last two races to snatch the title in Brazil.

 

Hamilton, who had faced accusations from BMW-Sauber's Robert Kubica of dangerous driving before Sunday's race, had said he would "take no silly risks" at Fuji but the reality proved otherwise.

 

He was wrong-footed at the start and attempted to duck inside Raikkonen's line at the first corner, triggering mayhem and pushing the Finn off the track. Raikkonen went on to take third place behind Renault's winner Fernando Alonso and Kubica.

 

**********

 

Kubica was quoted as saying Hamilton should have been penalised for reckless driving at last month's Italian Grand Prix when the Briton charged from 15th on the grid to finish seventh.

 

The Polish driver, a long-time friend and rival of Hamilton's from their karting days, reportedly accused the McLaren man of cutting across Toyota's Timo Glock and Renault's Fernando Alonso in Monza.

[Abba]

Lewis' reckless and dangerous style in Monza was clear and beamed around the world for all to see.

 

No words, just pure reckless mayhem esp in Fuji into turn 1.

[Kangz]

After so many posts, it's painfully clear that you only have 1 song to sing. And obviously you like that nasty song very much. Don't get anyone started on Massa's attempt to put Hamilton into a spin last weekend. If you like to watch a race without drivers banging into each other, switch to WRC.

 

I was actually waiting to see if you will redeem yourself by posting the posts the news articles that Terry3922t had posted for a more balanced argument. Surely with your enthusiasm and zest for anything Hamilton, it's unlikely you will miss them. But somehow perhaps the only thing you type into the Google bar is "All things negative about Hamilton'. No you are not interested in any clarifications, and yes you are only interested in stuff that's inline with your only tune. And somehow you miss out on his brilliant pole position lap yesterday too.

 

Be a man and at least try to provide a more balanced perspective. At least I admit he has flaws and some of his moves are uncalled for, but I do not deny his brilliance and talent. For you, you are only interested in posting anti-Hamilton and pro-Ferrari news. I also notice you have been pretty quiet in the thread which talked about the Ferrari team blasting S'pore circuit C'mon, surely with your expertise in searching for F1 news and your time spent on this forum, I doubt you would have missed any of those.

Edited October 19, 2008 by Kangz

[Terry3922t]

Rule No. 1. If you are going to use newspaper articles on controversial issues to support your position

Edited October 19, 2008 by Terry3922t

[Abba]

OT, thread is on Lewis. Feel free to start another on Massa, Luca or any F1 personality of your preference

[Abba]

Thank gawd Lewis was on pole in SH, that's the safetest place for him to drive in a race, right in front out there without his reckless and dangerous manouveurs.

 

When he is behind, he even held Trulli up for like 2 laps?!? the arrogance of Lewis.

 

You are free to air all your opinions and comments, of cos. The reckless & dangerous comments came from the drivers who drove wheel to wheel with litttle Lewis and reputable F1 figures; not you nor me. The world saw what happenned in the race, read the news and made their judgement calls; and not reading comments in MCF

[Kangz]

Oh no no... This thread is about your intention, mentality and motive as much as it is about Lewis. Your thread title begs people to look deeper into why you created this thread. It's more than your feeling of injustice and dislike for Hamilton's driving. Surely we can't just take things at face value can we?

 

As mentioned previously, if he's driving for your beloved team or if he's any of the driver driving for a mid field team, this thread wouldn't have existed.

Edited October 26, 2008 by Kangz