Grounding VS Voltage stabalizing

[Saycheese78]

If you are installing ICE in your car and you are very particular about audio quality. Connect your ground back to your batt and NOT your chassis. Install VS also to cut out as much voltage fluctuations as possible.

 

Chassis is a very bad grounding point. The resistant is much higher compared copper cables. If you have a multimeter, just measure the resistance of the grounding point to the battery. It high compared to cables. Cares are all spot welded and contact between metal sheets are poor, not to mention steel is not exactly an excellent conductor of electricity.

 

Of course, its only if you are very particular. Car audio is same as home audio and hifi enthusaists are very particular about power quality to ensure the best possible audio quality (I used to be hifi siao also....).

 

Best is to use twisted pair or shielded cables for your speakers to cut out noise. Silver plated cables makes your music to sound bright. For power cables, you may want solid core copper cables. It beats stranded cables but is very stiff. If you want, shield your power cables as well. LHS shop @ SLT do sell good power cables and even braided shield. Good stuff.

 

For speaker cables and interconnects, you can look for one cable shop on 2nd storey in SLS. They sell Qunex cables which are very good entry level stuff. I don't see the need for crazy expensive stuff like Van den Hull or Nordost etc.....

 

For speakers themselves, I don't know too much about car audio (most hifi companies don't make for cars) but brands like Sony are pretty much crap stuff. Maybe can rip out cones from speakers and mount them in cars?

 

True, I agree, Gr0unding your ICE to your battery is always a good idea. Your ICE gets power from your battery anyway. This will improve the stability of your power source. You should see a huge improvement for your BASS!

[Pisces69]

I think that's a misconception. Electrons travel at the speed of light.

Putting a ground point at the end of the car is not going to make much difference than putting it at the battery negative terminal.

 

Electrical interference? It may be induced on long runs of wires or chassis, but they are radio freq noise, easily removed by capacitors at the input of most rf sensitive device.

 

As long as the ground point is clean, it is not going to make any perceptible difference for most people.

 

However, I don't doubt that putting extra ground wires, just make people feel good.

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Hmmmm.....Maybe that why I do feel good nowadays.

[Yuan]

Why are you guys concern about speed of electron flow? It is the most unimportant thing in the world. Your wire is a sea of electrons, (metal as a sea of electrons. Sec school physics).

 

It is true electrons flow slowly in a wire. But you dun need one particular electron to flow to the other end of the wire for your music to flow through. Think of it as you make a wave at one end of the rope, the wave will travel down to the other end. but does the molecule acutaully move from one end to the other?

 

So what is important then? Back to JC physics. For ICE, the most important thing is the total capacitance

Edited February 17, 2010 by Yuan

[Pisces69]

Very chim....Read until ...You can summarize in 1 sentence?

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Grounding works but u must do it correctly.

[Saycheese78]

===============

 

Grounding works but u must do it correctly.

 

OOps sorry. Ok just one sentence.

 

"Leave the ICE to professionals"

 

haha. .. give you one more. Adjust your wirings and use your ear to listen to see if better! (for information, your ears are hearing different things from that award wining ICE guy)

 

Above summary so that can smoke pple like I am smoking u guys :P

1) Forget about speed of electrons. it does not matter

2) Ground to Car Batt if it is not too far away. Use voltage stabaliser too!

3) Use good wires between your CD, AMP and speakers to get rid of the C and L crap (thick single core like clothes hanger or multi-strand to your speakers.)

4) Keep wires as short as possible. Got some guys ever mention that there is a golden length to follow one :P

5) Grounding to car chasis may make your sound better if do correctly. Worse if done wrongly. Different car different performance

6) Use your ears to listen for 1/2 hr after each adjustment. Make sure no fatigue

7) If you meet an audio engineer,you can check if he is a trial and error blind Engineer by asking him how to reduce Capacitance and Inductance. :P

 

PS: if you come across any of these formulas in your upper sec, JC, Poly, Uni boy's text, chit chat with them to get them interested in ICE cos they can apply what they learn. If you are interested, open yr JC physics. (but i heard alot of these interesting crap is removed from JC physics)

 

 

[Smhomie]

OOps sorry. Ok just one sentence.

 

"Leave the ICE to professionals"

 

haha. .. give you one more. Adjust your wirings and use your ear to listen to see if better! (for information, your ears are hearing different things from that award wining ICE guy)

 

Above summary so that can smoke pple like I am smoking u guys :P

1) Forget about speed of electrons. it does not matter

2) Ground to Car Batt if it is not too far away. Use voltage stabaliser too!

3) Use good wires between your CD, AMP and speakers to get rid of the C and L crap (thick single core like clothes hanger or multi-strand to your speakers.)

4) Keep wires as short as possible. Got some guys ever mention that there is a golden length to follow one :P

5) Grounding to car chasis may make your sound better if do correctly. Worse if done wrongly. Different car different performance

6) Use your ears to listen for 1/2 hr after each adjustment. Make sure no fatigue

7) If you meet an audio engineer,you can check if he is a trial and error blind Engineer by asking him how to reduce Capacitance and Inductance. :P

 

PS: if you come across any of these formulas in your upper sec, JC, Poly, Uni boy's text, chit chat with them to get them interested in ICE cos they can apply what they learn. If you are interested, open yr JC physics. (but i heard alot of these interesting crap is removed from JC physics)

 

For (2), I have read from car manufacturer literature that the battery is in fact a voltage stabilizer. How would adding any smaller capacitors in parallel across the terminals help? If your car is parked with engine off, audio systems draw power from the battery. But when your engine is in motion, the alternator supplies the power + charge the battery. How would VS contribute anything? Of course unless your total draw is greater than what the alternator can supply, then the battery will have to supplement.

 

If VS was to be used anywhere, shouldn't they be located at the point of power demand? eg. just behind the power inlet of your head unit or sound processor. This would help stabilise the current flow if suddenly the voltage dips when peak demand comes in. I so far read from forums that since the battery do not exist solely for your sound system alone, hence Capbanks are sometimes used to prevent voltage dips when peak demand shoots up momentarily. Afterall, it is the construction of capacitors to charge up fast and to discharge its energy in an instant when triggered.

 

[Treesmaker]

For those who think your car is not properly grounded, go get a workshop manual for your car and start counting.

Mine has 20 ground points throughout the car.

Just bcoz you don't see it, doesn't mean it's not there.

 

Every electrical device needs a ground and the ground used is the car chassis. It's about as good as it can get.

 

Adding a few more colourful ground wires is not going to improve anything except maybe the looks.

 

Well said!

 

[Saycheese78]

For (2), I have read from car manufacturer literature that the battery is in fact a voltage stabilizer. How would adding any smaller capacitors in parallel across the terminals help? If your car is parked with engine off, audio systems draw power from the battery. But when your engine is in motion, the alternator supplies the power + charge the battery. How would VS contribute anything? Of course unless your total draw is greater than what the alternator can supply, then the battery will have to supplement.

 

If VS was to be used anywhere, shouldn't they be located at the point of power demand? eg. just behind the power inlet of your head unit or sound processor. This would help stabilise the current flow if suddenly the voltage dips when peak demand comes in. I so far read from forums that since the battery do not exist solely for your sound system alone, hence Capbanks are sometimes used to prevent voltage dips when peak demand shoots up momentarily. Afterall, it is the construction of capacitors to charge up fast and to discharge its energy in an instant when triggered.

 

Yes, the battery is a voltage stabalizer. It is a capacitor.

 

Layman view: You are right. The alternator supplies most of the power. However, the power supply by the alternator is never the cleanest for audio purposes. The battery helps to buffer this a bit to make the power source cleaner. But before you reach this stage, make sure you have proper audio components first. If not, this is not even your weakest link. (good cables, HU and so on)

 

Now, different frequency of sound will view your battery differently due to the inductance. Thus, if the voltage of your battery is 12V, your low at 200Hz may view it as 11.90V. Your tremble may view it as 11.80V. Of course there is another set of capacitors or voltage stabalisers near your HU to reduce such things.

 

The other issue is bass. loud bass. woofer. this draws a huge current and will cause the voltage at your battery to dip! stabalisers help.

 

But end of the day, it is how (IM CHIM) picky your ear is. Stabaliser helps but can you tell the diff? You are blessed if you cannot

 

-------Warning: Technical view---------------------------------------------------------------

 

Your Battery is a power source with a series R and L component. pretty high R and L. Your alternator is worse. Higher R and L. Voltage Stabaliser is a smaller R and L. (Its a large capacitor with some small R and L when compared with the capacitance.) So you have 3 power source, sounds very stable right?

 

Voltage stabaliser is like the output capacitors of your alternator. With the low L and R, it reduces the ripple voltage at your power source. With its low L, it stabalises your high frequency. It also prevents the high frequency from other electronics in coupling to your power source and in turn couple to your audio!

 

When you draw a current from the power source, by V = IR, the voltage drop will depends on the R. So, your ICE will see a 12V - I * R from your car battery, which is 12V. Audio draws different I at different time and thus you may see a different voltage from the battery at different time, forming ripples. So with a small R, you will notice that the voltage will be more stable. Similarly, for Inductance, V = 12V - jwL = 12V - j * 2 * 3.14 * F * L. As you can see, tremble with high F (10 000Hz) will cause the voltage to drop more vs BAss (50Hz). However, with a low L, you reduce the effect.

 

 

Similar principal applies for speaker cables. Some pple like to use silver cables to greatly reduce the L and the tremble improves. However, may be too bright for some!

 

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All these technical only help you identify snake oil and demistify black magic in audio. Please use your ears to listen. If you are one who cannot differentiate 128kbps MP3 with CD quality, you are truly bless and do not need to spend so much time playing with ICE. your Stock is good enough!

 

To be frank, the knowledge are from my Engineering days as a designer and playing with entry level hifi. Do a google and you will know I am pretty entry guy in terms of audio. Extremeplace forum and so on. I am still using stock HU because of family commitment :P In fact, with $ I would rather pay for my hifi than HU :P.

 

[Detach8]

I think I should give this old thread a bump. There's a discussion over here:

 

http://www.mycarforum.com/topic/2633155-nissan-teana-experience/page-60?do=findComment&comment=5439527

 

Maybe we should continue this here and not mess up the Nissan Teana thread.

[Detach8]

I think this thread here is also a good cross-reference for those who thinks aftermarket grounding makes sense.

 

http://www.mycarforum.com/topic/2298214-toyotanissanmazdadaihatsunon-jap-car-with-xtra-grounding-take-note/

 

With those sensors I think the grounding is really not necessary any more. The one single wire that is now connected to the battery and the sensor is the single point of failure. The reason why people ground their old cars is to have multiple points, so the one with least resistance takes precedence in an event another grounding point is loose/rusty/etc.

[Detach8]

 

As for "In some old cars the terminal where the battery grounds can get dirty and rusted, and this leads to a poor ground, and what aftermarket grounding simply does is to give it multiple points to ground to around the chassis so that in event one point is weak." I completely agree with you. I drive an old car and as time passes the grounds will get dirty and rusted and that's why I added grounding for the multiple points.

 

If your car is old, the grounding points for the battery alone is likely insufficient if you are experiencing issues such as poor battery charging/lifespan. There are multiple grounding points around the entire vehicle, not just from the battery, but also from chassis to chassis, engine to chassis, alternator to chassis, etc. ALL these grounding points need to be looked at, and ideally have the wiring replaced as the car ages.

[Mavwong]

How many of you get zap by your car door after end of drive. Or you have aeroplane winding sound from your sound system?

 

If answer is yes, I think grounding has a problem in your car.

 

As many of you thought, every manufacturer should done this correctly already, don't assume, just check. to be sure.

 

I am electronic eng myself, well understand importance of grounding but when comes to car, I also assume, hey, it should be done correctly why need consumer to spend more money to correct stuff that cost 100K?

 

Just yesterday happen to went to garage to change brake pad and brake light. I saw ESP super charger and 5 point grounding wire (I am hardcore HIFI guy, not much into ICE yet). Have a long chat with Mark over at E-Rev. Out of inspiration, I went on to check my grounding, To my shock, there's only a single wire connecting battery ground to engine. I do found other wire connecting to the chasis but to the battery GND, only the engine is connected. So in short, the chasis is connected to the engine at one point, then the engine another point is connected to the batt GND.

 

After installing 5 point. Aeroplane sound gone! This morning after long drive from the Woods to Boonkeng, didn't get zap by my car! (I got zap 90% of time after long trip). As for whether it helps in your performance and FC, I cant answer that now. Too early to tell.

[Kurty]

Anyone knows where can I get these copper wire as grounding cable?

 

Recently my old grounding cable worn off, thinking of changing them.

 

Tried to pm p69 but can't.

 

Thanks!

[dcb]

I think you can still get them from the shops in sim lim tower.

Anyone knows where can I get these copper wire as grounding cable?

Recently my old grounding cable worn off, thinking of changing them.

Tried to pm p69 but can't.

Thanks!

 

[Meemee]

The grounding cables I m using

 

Awg0 / OFC

 

Car runs smoother

Acclecration smoother and better response

Idling - steady / no more trembling feel at traffics junction

Auto gear shift is smoother

 

 

It also very skeptical about how grounding cables works

 

Perhaps we should look at the size of the cables

 

You hate it or you don't

[Kurty]

I think you can still get them from the shops in sim lim tower.

Thanks but which type should I go for?

The grounding cables I m using

 

Awg0 / OFC

 

Car runs smoother

Acclecration smoother and better response

Idling - steady / no more trembling feel at traffics junction

Auto gear shift is smoother

 

 

It also very skeptical about how grounding cables works

 

Perhaps we should look at the size of the cables

 

You hate it or you don't

You got spare? Can sell me a couple?

[Meemee]

Thanks but which type should I go for?

You got spare? Can sell me a couple?

 

Have pm you

[dcb]

Thanks but which type should I go for?

You got spare? Can sell me a couple?

If I'm don't remember wrongly its 10AWG?!