Old WW2 Relic disposals

[Elfenstar]

OK, if the police can't clear the device for me, and I'm unwilling to pay for clearance of the device, can I keep it? On "private property"? How about if I find a buried firearm, can I keep that too?

 

If your answer is yes, then your point is valid. If (as I suspect), the answer is no (that I can't legally hold on to those things), then there's something seriously screwed up about the police passing the buck when it comes to carting the device away safely, YET holding me responsible if I choose to do nothing about it.

 

If the police are not qualified to dispose of the device by themselves, then there should be a much smoother and more efficient handover to the specialists (like CBRE/BDU). And at *no time* is it at all acceptable for the police to basically pass the buck back to the unfortunate land owner/lessee and tell him to handle things. Nor is expecting them to pay up to get private security to guard the device, or expecting them to pay for private contractors to dispose of the device reasonable.

 

I think even you agree the police completely dropped the ball on this one. And, unfortunately, this is becoming an all-too-common occurrence for the "Home Team". Public confidence is very important, and it's very sad that a Force that used to enjoy so much of it now enjoys so much less. :angry:

 

Well if you decide to keep it then you're committing an offence are you not??? Technically its your property so you're responsible for it. That's why the police need a warrant (or an ASP and above) to be able to walk into someones home. Same reason if you buy a resale house and the BCA subsequently finds works done that are illegal, the current owner is responsible, or that you're responsible if you buy a used vehicle with illegal modifications whether you know it or not. etc.

 

Whenever there is a bomb discovered, the police will consult the Explosives Ordinance Disposal Unit (EODU) which is from the SAF, and the actual actions in relation to the diffusing, disposing, or informing that the person needs to hire a private contractor etc of the bomb will be under their purview.

 

All the police can do is ensure that safety is not compromised if the bomb goes off before anything can be done. I'm sure there would have been a cordoned off area with a security detail, so their job in relation to security and safety is done, and now its for the land owner to worry about how to get rid of the item, which IMHO is reasonable because there is no longer a threat nor is there a security issue.

 

Of course if you think that BCA or LTA should fix illegal works done by a previous owner from my examples in para 1, then there's nothing I can say.

 

 

[Elfenstar]

Let's wait for the police to release their statement and hear the story from their side.

 

I honestly do not believe that they will just give that advice based on the fact that the relic was found in a private compound.

 

They wouldn't because the SOP is simply to refer it to EODU for action. All they could do is relay the message back. There is nothing the police could do in relations to the disposal because there's nobody qualified or trained to handle explosives, unexploded ordinance etc in the SPF.

[Elfenstar]

A bomb this size could very well be a national threat.. Why the Police so selfish?

 

Private property cannot interfere? Bomb go off how, whole Singapore can be affected..

 

First time see this kind of nonsense. :angry:

 

National threat??? Which movie are you watching???

 

[Happily1986]

They wouldn't because the SOP is simply to refer it to EODU for action. All they could do is relay the message back. There is nothing the police could do in relations to the disposal because there's nobody qualified or trained to handle explosives, unexploded ordinance etc in the SPF.

 

I suppose the furore or storm in the teacup began after it was quoted as from the news that "the authorities" help in disposing of the vintage ordnance. what comes in mind when one mentions authorities?

 

unless we hear it straight from the horse's mouth ie the police officer who said so to the pte property owner then, it could jolly well be a case of a misquote.

[Elfenstar]

I suppose the furore or storm in the teacup began after it was quoted as from the news that "the authorities" help in disposing of the vintage ordnance. what comes in mind when one mentions authorities?

 

unless we hear it straight from the horse's mouth ie the police officer who said so to the pte property owner then, it could jolly well be a case of a misquote.

 

Its a case of shooting the messenger combined with assumptions (probably from TV shows and movies) that the police has a unit catering to bombs and such.

 

[Soya]

would this be consider a public service? as in clearing a war relic bomb.

 

 

if it ever comes to a point where it's more natural for anyone finding an unexploded bomb to call a pte contractor instead of the authorities for help, that shows how hopeless and lack of faith ppl hv in their govts.

[Adrianli]

All the police can do is ensure that safety is not compromised if the bomb goes off before anything can be done. I'm sure there would have been a cordoned off area with a security detail, so their job in relation to security and safety is done, and now its for the land owner to worry about how to get rid of the item, which IMHO is reasonable because there is no longer a threat nor is there a security issue.

 

Hi,

 

According to news report, the police did not ensure safety at all. The owner has to employ two certis cisco guards to do that leh. See reported news clip :

 

 

Mr Yap said on Monday that the police had informed him that they would not be able to help get rid of the war relic since it was found on private property.

 

He told them the land was leased from statutory board JTC Corporation, and therefore was not private property. The police then provided him with the contact numbers of two private bomb disposal companies.

 

Mr Yap paid more than $600 for two officers from security management firm Certis Cisco to stand watch over the war relic that night.

 

He said he called DPM Teo's office, telling the staff member he was put through to that it was a 'very urgent' matter and that he needed help.

 

Shortly after, he said, he received a call from the SAF's bomb disposal unit. It is understood that the bomb will be detonated today.

[Vulcann]

Hi,

 

According to news report, the police did not ensure safety at all. The owner has to employ two certis cisco guards to do that leh. See reported news clip :

 

 

Mr Yap said on Monday that the police had informed him that they would not be able to help get rid of the war relic since it was found on private property.

 

He told them the land was leased from statutory board JTC Corporation, and therefore was not private property. The police then provided him with the contact numbers of two private bomb disposal companies.

 

Mr Yap paid more than $600 for two officers from security management firm Certis Cisco to stand watch over the war relic that night.

 

He said he called DPM Teo's office, telling the staff member he was put through to that it was a 'very urgent' matter and that he needed help.

 

Shortly after, he said, he received a call from the SAF's bomb disposal unit. It is understood that the bomb will be detonated today.

 

It is a scary thought on what would have happened if during the process of happily hauling the ordnance to make a fast buck, the ignorant foreign workers are vaporised in a flash...

 

Wonder if they had dropped the THING during the actual process.

 

And for how many times did they drop the 160kg "treasure"...

 

Use forkilft to carry it some more OMG...

 

We have had numerous cases so far of earthworks contractors during their excavation works coming across buried WWII munitions.

 

To date I am not sure if there is a SOP for any contractor or the general public to deal with it. (Wonder of the WSHA got any section specifically dealing with uncovered unexploded ordnance from the ground)

 

The authorities should issue a SOP for everyone, especially lowly educated foreign workers, if they can across these dangerous objects.

 

And please no more distinction between private or public land when it comes to such WWII relics.

 

We are not talking about a stranded cat on a tree or a menacing python in your backyard.

Edited June 22, 2011 by Vulcann

[1fast1]

Well if you decide to keep it then you're committing an offence are you not??? Technically its your property so you're responsible for it. That's why the police need a warrant (or an ASP and above) to be able to walk into someones home. Same reason if you buy a resale house and the BCA subsequently finds works done that are illegal, the current owner is responsible, or that you're responsible if you buy a used vehicle with illegal modifications whether you know it or not. etc.

 

So basically, police can refuse to do anything, and yet insist property owner rectify the situation at his own expense. When the problem wasn't even of his making, and noone can reasonably conclude that he could have known the problem existed in the first place. Wah, liddat mata win oreddy man!

 

Interesting examples you chose to quote there. In both those cases, the only reason those things are illegal is that there is an element of public hazard present. Illegal works = presumed safety hazard to people living inside, people visiting or people living in vicinity. Illegal mods = presumed safety/health hazard to driver, passenger and other road users.

 

What this case has in common with those examples is that there may be a clear element of public danger in unexploded ordnance. Yet the police chose to do nothing substantive to protect the public interest.

 

That's what it boils down to - public interest, the police's role in protecting it, and their failure to have done so in this instance. What I find most vexing about this situation is that if this guy (the property owner) had instead found a priceless relic of national historical significance, the police would likely have been quite happy to relieve him of it asap, citing the public interest. Even without any element of danger involved (or perhaps, especially because of it?), they would've been happy to seize what they deem the rightful property of the Nation. It's heads they win, tails we lose.

 

In another respect, your examples are poor ones (certainly poorer than you characterised Requiem's analogy as being). A house buyer and a car buyer are expected to do their due diligence and are held accountable for problems they could *reasonably* have foreseen or detected. Noone in their right mind is going to accuse this poor chap of having been reasonably able to foresee the finding of an unexploded bomb on his land! And if such an unreasonable assertion were to be made, shouldn't the gahmen who sold/leased him the land be ultimately liable (after all, this is JTC land)?

 

Whenever there is a bomb discovered, the police will consult the Explosives Ordinance Disposal Unit (EODU) which is from the SAF, and the actual actions in relation to the diffusing, disposing, or informing that the person needs to hire a private contractor etc of the bomb will be under their purview.

 

"Defusing".

 

My contention is that the police could've done a much better job coordinating things. If they had done a proper job even coordinating with the relevant parties, do you think they would've left such a poor impression on this Mr Yap chap and others? The distinct impression given here is that of the police having shrugged their shoulders and washed their hands.

 

All the police can do is ensure that safety is not compromised if the bomb goes off before anything can be done. I'm sure there would have been a cordoned off area with a security detail, so their job in relation to security and safety is done, and now its for the land owner to worry about how to get rid of the item, which IMHO is reasonable because there is no longer a threat nor is there a security issue.

 

Really? Then why did Mr Yap have to pay for Certis Cisco officers to guard the device, if the police and their cordon was sufficient?

 

Of course if you think that BCA or LTA should fix illegal works done by a previous owner from my examples in para 1, then there's nothing I can say.

 

There's nothing to say, because I've already refuted your poorly chosen examples.

 

[Nikamura]

Everything now taiji, not me not him, not anyone. Last time, once found, EOD will be there

on the spot, now it seems, have to open table and discuss quotation first? really WTF and CMI.

 

apparently they start to move only once the site manager called up uncle TEO.. now althou not mindef liao.. still got power as a DPM to move the army la.

wah this explomo actually does the supplies of fireworks too.. now now.. dont be surprise its a GLC :X

haha u think suka suka can import ammunitions and fireworks into SG?

[Mazdaowner]

apparently they start to move only once the site manager called up uncle TEO.. now althou not mindef liao.. still got power as a DPM to move the army la.

wah this explomo actually does the supplies of fireworks too.. now now.. dont be surprise its a GLC :X

haha u think suka suka can import ammunitions and fireworks into SG?

 

I know, but best keep it on a "Need to know basis" and for now, public forum, no need to know.

And no, they're not a GLC. I know who the boss is, and he knows me.

[Bystander50]

They wouldn't because the SOP is simply to refer it to EODU for action. All they could do is relay the message back. There is nothing the police could do in relations to the disposal because there's nobody qualified or trained to handle explosives, unexploded ordinance etc in the SPF.

 

The ST article mentioned that the manager paid $600 to hire CISCO guards to guard the bomb.

Why isn't the police involved in guarding such dangerous materials and instead handed over to auxillary police?

Commercial activities like protecting the delivery of cash or expensive items are acceptable. If the police ain't going to do anything, then why do we need the police force for in the first place? Might as well everyone hire their own bodyguards.

 

One word to describe the police force quality - DEGRADED.

Now we can tell the difference between how police duties are carried out in real life as opposed to what they try to boost their image in the current Chinese drama.

 

 

[Bystander50]

It is a scary thought on what would have happened if during the process of happily hauling the ordnance to make a fast buck, the ignorant foreign workers are vaporised in a flash...

 

Wonder if they had dropped the THING during the actual process.

 

And for how many times did they drop the 160kg "treasure"...

 

Use forkilft to carry it some more OMG...

 

We have had numerous cases so far of earthworks contractors during their excavation works coming across buried WWII munitions.

 

To date I am not sure if there is a SOP for any contractor or the general public to deal with it. (Wonder of the WSHA got any section specifically dealing with uncovered unexploded ordnance from the ground)

 

The authorities should issue a SOP for everyone, especially lowly educated foreign workers, if they can across these dangerous objects.

 

And please no more distinction between private or public land when it comes to such WWII relics.

 

We are not talking about a stranded cat on a tree or a menacing python in your backyard.

 

Wouldn't it be worst if some unknown terrorist(s) that escape detection by the ISD came and snatched away the bomb?

One side talk so much abou security and if spotted any suspecious items, call 999, the other side upon receiving the call just ignore it.

 

 

 

[KARTer]

Well really depends if they're paid enough for the workload and risks or not doesn't it

 

If they feel that they are underpaid, please voice it and not pretend its ok but at the same time dont do a good job protecting us. Our safety, even our lives depend on them. This is like giving us a false sense of safety, especially we are not the ones who decide their pays but are the ones they are paid to protect.

 

And even then when it comes to security and safety, this is one area the line level PO's have always shown to me that they don't cut corners.

 

Unfortunately corners have been cut in not giving enough protection against bomb blast, and in turns our lives.

 

I doubt anyone who served NS in the SAF, has walked into a still burning flat to look for people. I know of one police NSF who walked in behind me and two CD officers to check for trapped persons. Do let me know if you think my then $2k plus salary or his allowance was worth the risk.

 

We are talking about a potential bomb blast, the case you cited is a seperate though true example. I am not denying Home Team is doing their job in other cases, but in the bomb case, cant say they have done a good job no matter how i try to stretch my imagination. In this thread, i dont differentiate between line officers and Home Team management. They have to sort it out internally.

 

I even held the victim's hand till he died from his injuries before the ambulance arrived.

Edited June 22, 2011 by KARTer

[Park88]

The ST article mentioned that the manager paid $600 to hire CISCO guards to guard the bomb.

Why isn't the police involved in guarding such dangerous materials and instead handed over to auxillary police?

Commercial activities like protecting the delivery of cash or expensive items are acceptable. If the police ain't going to do anything, then why do we need the police force for in the first place? Might as well everyone hire their own bodyguards.

 

One word to describe the police force quality - DEGRADED.

Now we can tell the difference between how police duties are carried out in real life as opposed to what they try to boost their image in the current Chinese drama.

if police cannot do and cannot do that

then one really have to ask

what can they really do

 

 

[Bystander50]

Let's wait for the police to release their statement and hear the story from their side.

 

I honestly do not believe that they will just give that advice based on the fact that the relic was found in a private compound.

 

The police most likely will release their story saying that they are misquoted again and quote some of their "facts" ...

1. They informed the property owner that he can seek assistance for the disposal by private bomb disposal contractors.

2. There is a shortage of police manpower, the owner can hire commercial guards to guard the gates (not the bomb) till the bomb disposal unit arrives.

3. The manager is unable to describe the object clearly and in detail, hence it is believed the object is not a bomb, but some old gas canisters.

4. The police had done their best and gave their advices to positively identify the object before they send the bomb disposal unit down.

5. The manager successfully identified the object and police resources are diverted to the location.

6. The police are stuck in a traffic jam due to a large crowd of kaypohs who came from as far as Pasir Ris and Tuas to have a view of this object.

7. The manager became impatient while waiting and called TCH for help to activate the bomb disposal unit.

 

 

[Bystander50]

if police cannot do and cannot do that

then one really have to ask

what can they really do

 

I am searching for the answer too.

Where are the policeman on foot or bicycle patrol that we used to see?

And with such a large influx of foreigners, what is the ratio of law enforcement officers to the population?

 

[Eepchuan]

Ironically, only two days before, the same minister said, "'Nevertheless, we need to continue to maintain a heightened security, and to be vigilant in case anything comes up.'"

 

It appears, an unexploded bomb in your private backyard does not count. Apparently it does not fall into the "security" category and not worth being "vigilant" about. For this case its let your fingers do the walking... dial the number found in the Yellow Pages for a "reliable bomb disposal person".

 

What if the bomb had exploded for one reason or another, and lives and limbs were lost? Would we be getting just another apology in Parliament?

 

I would think the authorities should act first, and settle the bill later. Its just common sense.