LKY confirmed: Immigration caused stress and tension

[Darthrevan]

why would he and his party changed their policies when clearly their plan works? sinkies very easy to bluff..just some threats abt hdb price drops, ministers get vote out and sinkies shaken already..then after 5 years repeat same formula..these 60.14% choose their own interest(which works against them anyway) over national interest

[Duckduck]

Yes I too feel his mental capabilities seem lacking sometimes.

 

The onset of dementia?

 

alzheimer etc it anyone's guess

[Evillusion]

Again, driven by circumstances. The nearby countries are getting better and cheaper also. They have a huge resource base for companies to choose....no short of hiring options. Spore is expensive and people are not multiplying fast enough. If there is no FT in the PMET field, manpower cost will be high and hiring options are limited. Why should companies come here?

but from my experience, those that come as pmet have pay that matches local pay or as from other mcf kakia mentioned they are paid more! if they are paid more or the pay matches, y do we need to employ them?

If the government need a quick solution for the time being, it is enuff that they are given n employment pass and make sure that Singaporean in the mean time procreate more and give out more incentives (this one is up for debate). But no, the government give them pr wholesale and make many singaporean unhappy.

Most singaporean have tasted racial riots and the likes and we do not like it so much so that we become respectful of other races. can we say the same for this newcomers..most of them are here for the money and quietly leave after that but some are here to inadvertantly create malice based on the cases that is sprouting everywhere in Singapore.

For those that are here for the money, once they give up their pr status, sell off their property and collect back theor cpf, singpore will be left out high and dry in term of fund and manpower!

Edited August 14, 2011 by Eviilusion

[Ah_tee]

Bro...you got some good points......but let me address the PMET piece. I am not pro-gov or anything...just being objective based on what I know.

 

For the PMET piece, I think they did set a quota that for a company to hire foreigners, the number of Sporeans must be of a certain amount first. I think that was done. Only question is if that quota is being too loose.

 

Now, the gov. also have to think that to keep employment high, they need to attract MNCs and foreign companies. As our labour cost goes up, these companies have to be given certain flexibility in resource hiring so that they can keep their manpower cost down. Otherwise, they can just close shop and move to Msia, Thailand or China and in the end, everyone will lose out including Sporeans. The flexibility here is to use FT where their wage demand is lower. I am pretty sure that without this flexibility, we will be seeing an unemployment rate of above 10%....why should companies set up here when cost is so expensive?

 

Again, driven by circumstances. The nearby countries are getting better and cheaper also. They have a huge resource base for companies to choose....no short of hiring options. Spore is expensive and people are not multiplying fast enough. If there is no FT in the PMET field, manpower cost will be high and hiring options are limited. Why should companies come here?

 

I can share this because many years ago, I have to help my MNC to make a choice whether to setup in Singapore. I went through the same dilemma. While I will definitely want to setup shop here, since I am local, but I get a lot of contention from my foreign managers because the cost structure in SGP is not competitive. In the end I manage to push it through, but the the biz is tough and if I didn't use FT, I would have close down and move to Msia.

 

So think from that angle. Locals want good pay, good jobs. Companies want lower cost and bigger talent pool, both which Spore doesn't have. So it is not easy to make that balance if we don't use FT to lower overall manpower cost and provide a bigger talent pool in the PMET space.

 

Coming from a business owner or regional leader like urself

 

you left out some important points bro,

 

i am not sure wad kind of facility you are setting up, if you are in manufacturing, i say go elsewhere, u wont get factory workers or operators here for Singaporeans, ur best bet will be batam or msia.

 

However you may want to convince ur management the following points if u r looking at a regional HQ.

 

 

1) corruption -free, a friend told me he wanted to setup a company in vietnam but was met with hurdles and hurdles, the hurdle, he later discovered was bribery, he said he then approach the "right pple" gahment officials, and they wanted a 45% stake in the company, he was shocked and thought it was exhorbitant but he later found out for his business size, this was the norm..

 

2) efficiency - whether it comes to transport or work efficiency i believe Singapore will do better, u measure the response time from a sgporean staff compare to other staffs from the regions ?

 

i was at a major shopping mall in nagoya batam earlier this month, 1 cashier was having problem with the cash register, 6 of her colleagues were standing beside her looking at the register, while the other 3 cash registers were closed and there is a long queue in place.

 

 

 

 

if u look at the books upfront, sure expenses in Singapore are high, but it be worth the penny spent.

 

 

 

coming from a General viewpoint,

 

 

it still ends up with the common expenses the man on the street has to shoulder, his parents medical bills,his expenses, his housing instalment, his transport expenses, his utility bills,

 

 

you suffocate him with all these bills but still u expect him to stay competitive.

 

 

the root of the problem is STILL the gahment , i give u the dirty facts

 

 

1) with high living expenses you cant expect ur labour force to come cheap

 

2) with expensive labour force ur overseas investment will go down

 

the easiest way is to bring in cheap FTs.

 

BUT it will make life harder the Singaporean because other than competing with Singaporeans, he has to compete against FTs.

 

 

because they wanted a big piece of the pie in everything.

 

 

and the ultimate winner is them. its up to Singaporeans how they want to change this.

 

3)

 

 

[Tanlee]

why can't this old man just keep his mouth shut!

 

sigh!

 

thanks to the 60% I have to listen to him nagging for another 5 years until new changes will come! or when it is time for him to meet with his wife.

[Latio2005A]

You very tok- kong. One needle sees blood.

The main costs that make us not competitive are those mandatory cost which are directly indirectly caused by the govt. Land cost is just one example. Why cant govt give rebates so that overall cost structure still is competitive without sacrificing our labour cost? Why must govt always made money at the expense of its loyal citizen?

[Picanto]

why can't this old man just keep his mouth shut!

 

sigh!

 

thanks to the 60% I have to listen to him nagging for another 5 years until new changes will come! or when it is time for him to meet with his wife.

 

without him, will we have a successful country? learn to count your blessings

[Icedbs]

Coming from a business owner or regional leader like urself

 

you left out some important points bro,

 

i am not sure wad kind of facility you are setting up, if you are in manufacturing, i say go elsewhere, u wont get factory workers or operators here for Singaporeans, ur best bet will be batam or msia.

 

However you may want to convince ur management the following points if u r looking at a regional HQ.

 

 

1) corruption -free, a friend told me he wanted to setup a company in vietnam but was met with hurdles and hurdles, the hurdle, he later discovered was bribery, he said he then approach the "right pple" gahment officials, and they wanted a 45% stake in the company, he was shocked and thought it was exhorbitant but he later found out for his business size, this was the norm..

 

2) efficiency - whether it comes to transport or work efficiency i believe Singapore will do better, u measure the response time from a sgporean staff compare to other staffs from the regions ?

 

Bro...I did use all these to justify....how do you think I finally mange to convince the MNC to setup shop here?

 

But end of the day, everyone knows these are intangible benefits which is very difficult to put it into profit numbers. And companies make decision only from numbers....because that's how shareholders value the company as well.

 

And labour and resource cost is easy to put it into numbers. It is there for all to see and evaluate.

 

[Jasonjst]

Coming from a business owner or regional leader like urself

 

you left out some important points bro,

 

i am not sure wad kind of facility you are setting up, if you are in manufacturing, i say go elsewhere, u wont get factory workers or operators here for Singaporeans, ur best bet will be batam or msia.

 

However you may want to convince ur management the following points if u r looking at a regional HQ.

 

 

1) corruption -free, a friend told me he wanted to setup a company in vietnam but was met with hurdles and hurdles, the hurdle, he later discovered was bribery, he said he then approach the "right pple" gahment officials, and they wanted a 45% stake in the company, he was shocked and thought it was exhorbitant but he later found out for his business size, this was the norm..

 

2) efficiency - whether it comes to transport or work efficiency i believe Singapore will do better, u measure the response time from a sgporean staff compare to other staffs from the regions ?

 

i was at a major shopping mall in nagoya batam earlier this month, 1 cashier was having problem with the cash register, 6 of her colleagues were standing beside her looking at the register, while the other 3 cash registers were closed and there is a long queue in place.

 

 

 

 

if u look at the books upfront, sure expenses in Singapore are high, but it be worth the penny spent.

 

 

 

coming from a General viewpoint,

 

 

it still ends up with the common expenses the man on the street has to shoulder, his parents medical bills,his expenses, his housing instalment, his transport expenses, his utility bills,

 

 

you suffocate him with all these bills but still u expect him to stay competitive.

 

 

the root of the problem is STILL the gahment , i give u the dirty facts

 

 

1) with high living expenses you cant expect ur labour force to come cheap

 

2) with expensive labour force ur overseas investment will go down

 

the easiest way is to bring in cheap FTs.

 

BUT it will make life harder the Singaporean because other than competing with Singaporeans, he has to compete against FTs.

 

 

because they wanted a big piece of the pie in everything.

 

 

and the ultimate winner is them. its up to Singaporeans how they want to change this.

 

3)

 

 

Yes this is 100% what the MIW dont want us to know ! They are going to tell us tonight that without FTs , Singaporean cant punch above its weight and FTs create more better paying jobs for Singaporean . Dont belive just tune in to your TV tonight for the N-Day rally !

[Piyopico]

I think the MIW also need pressure to wake up. They wanna give us pressure but they themselves wanna have one party rule?

 

No way man.

 

Next election, letz put in another 30 opposition MPs. They should work better after that. No ifs and no buts. It cuts both ways.

[Piyopico]

Bro...I did use all these to justify....how do you think I finally mange to convince the MNC to setup shop here?

 

But end of the day, everyone knows these are intangible benefits which is very difficult to put it into profit numbers. And companies make decision only from numbers....because that's how shareholders value the company as well.

 

And labour and resource cost is easy to put it into numbers. It is there for all to see and evaluate.

 

 

I think you have failed to take into account a big segment of the local populace that suffered.

 

Imagine you bring in a MNC that created 1000 new positions. Out of this, the manufacturing staff takes up 600 positions. Support staff like admi and accounts plus customer service etc takes up another 200 positions. Only 200 positions are left in management and marketing. The first 800 positions will most likely go to the FTs. Of the remaining 200 positions, real talents from overseas will make up 20%, the remaining 160 positions goes to the locals of which PRs will get another chunk. Nett job creation to locals, maybe 100 positions. So every time some big MNCs set up shop here, the potential for locals to seek employment is probably 10-15% of the overall "positions or jobs" created.

 

Not bad, some may say. At least 15% goes to locals. BUT........ Remember the 800 or so positions that goes to FTs and foreign workers? They get employed because they are cheaper than locals. What happens is that the wages of the local workforce will always be depressed. This is simple cost and benefits analysis. This is not a big problem if inflation is controlled, but you guys know about the iincrease in costs of living.

 

For every 150 new positions created, 800 locals suffer indirectly. The vicious cycle continues and suddenly MIW says we are not cost competitive and must work faster, better, cheaper etc?

[Mockngbrd]

hear them tok until boring liao... what's new... in short, its a big F U to locals

[Icedbs]

I think you have failed to take into account a big segment of the local populace that suffered.

 

Imagine you bring in a MNC that created 1000 new positions. Out of this, the manufacturing staff takes up 600 positions. Support staff like admi and accounts plus customer service etc takes up another 200 positions. Only 200 positions are left in management and marketing. The first 800 positions will most likely go to the FTs.

 

 

Not possible. There is a quota given by MOM. If there is 1000 new positions, you can't give 800 to foreigners. I can't remember the quota now.....but definitely not possible to be at 80%.

 

 

[Oasis21]

Welcome to Singapore Inc...

 

We r nothing but employees hence our employers must constantly put pressure on us to perform. Otherwise they tell us that's others waiting in line to take our places....

 

They tell us to serve NS, we serve NS. After which they renumerate u with NS men bonus. Don't serve don't get.

 

They tell us to make babies so we make babies. After that they pay us Baby Bonus. No babies no pay.

 

Don't u feel these are exactly like those KPI set for working in companies? Then when u r old and cannot perform, they tell u that they replace u with younger, brighter n cheaper new hires that r a lot more hungry than u r.

 

 

Yup, totally agree singapore goverment are really running the country like a enterprise. And we locals are merely their money making tools for their big fat bonuses and tip top luxury living life style.

 

Imagine at the rate the goverment runs the country, what will happen to our next generation? Our children may not even be able to get a space into a good neighbourhood school

 

But think back, ain't we the ones that vote them to become the ruling party into Parliament???

[Oasis21]

I think both of you can be correct if seen from 2 perspectives:

 

180

[CKP]

Have you travelled outside or are aware that there exist many other small and even smaller countries than Singapore?

 

And yes, those soverign nations have a high quality of life without the need to "grow population" or depend on "foreign workers" as the only strategy.

 

Do you think they dont face "stark choices"? Only Singapore needs to face "tough choices"? Dont be naive and get off your siege mentality as it is not productive.

 

The "no choice" argument is getting lame for PAP's current easy and lazy option to "boost GDP 5% by growing population 4%" which you support.

 

Edited August 14, 2011 by CKP

[Icedbs]

but from my experience, those that come as pmet have pay that matches local pay or as from other mcf kakia mentioned they are paid more! if they are paid more or the pay matches, y do we need to employ them?

 

This is a myth that is blown out of proportion.

 

MNCs in Spore originates mainly from US or Europe. From time to time, there will be projects in Spore that will require some very specialised skillset. To get this skillset, these companies often have to send in their specialist from overseas, and obviously you can't pay them less than what they are getting from their home country which is often US or Europe. Now, assuming you can find such skillset in Spore at a lesser cost, would such people of high value skillset accept a short term job just to complete that project? Very often they do not, because when they have some special skills, they would want a long term perm job.

 

So these companies have no choice but to pay more to send in expats.

 

However, for most PMET day to day jobs, I will be surprised if their FTs cost more than locals. Look at the bank for e.q, I am sure most of those Indian FTs there cost less than locals. Otherwise, it doesn't make sense for the business. In my own management experience years ago, I could get a fresh Filipino engineer at $1800 but a fresh local would want $2500 at least.

 

Not trying to side gov. or anything, but when you have manage a P&L before, you will understand the constraint and challenges when you hire locals vs FTs.

 

 

 

 

 

[Jasonjst]

Not possible. There is a quota given by MOM. If there is 1000 new positions, you can't give 800 to foreigners. I can't remember the quota now.....but definitely not possible to be at 80%.

 

Why not , go Keppel Fels , surely is more that 80% foreigners lor .

Edited August 14, 2011 by Jasonjst