LKY confirmed: Immigration caused stress and tension

[Littleknown]

I don't know what TT thinks, but people who have went through the up and down of Spore economy knows that manufacturing in Spore is a very very difficult biz. We can't compete in cost, and it is hard to differentiate in terms of quality level. Perhaps Made in Singapore has better quality than Made in China, but does people really care when shelf life of products are getting shorter and shorter thesedays?

 

If certain economic policies didn't turn out well, I don't put blame on workers or gov. It's pointless to analyse that. It is better if we understand why it doesn't work out and then steer the business accordingly. For the workers, no point to also blame gov. and all that. Better to start steering their career or upgrade themselves towards another path.

 

The best response for the worker is to seek employment in big MNC where their skills tend to be developed, maybe get a chance to work and migrate abroad.

 

Avoid the stingy Singaporean boss who just wants to squeeze the most of them and use them fill the local quota. In short, let the local businesses fail.

 

 

 

[Pisces69]

Manufacturing is a sunset biz in Singapore unless there is a way to lower manpower cost. So I am not surprise if they allow more foreigners just to sustain the manufacturing companies here.

 

I mean how could Singapore fight with company like Foxconn in China when comes to manufacturing? China factories are so much cheaper.

 

So my question back to you will be this......would you want that 650 locals to have depressed wages, or do you want them to be out of job? That's reality.

 

So looks like the options for locals is 1)Depressed Wages or 2)Unemployment.

 

Dont look like very good options.

 

And I tot our gharmen was so good at solving our problems to give us a good life to justify their super high salary? Life in SG suddenly doen not look so rosy anymore.

 

[Wishcumstrue]

Manufacturing is a sunset biz in Singapore ...

 

... how could Singapore fight with company like Foxconn in China when comes to manufacturing? China factories are so much cheaper.

 

....would you want that 650 locals to have depressed wages, or do you want them to be out of job? That's reality.

 

 

Interesting that you brought up Taiwan-owned Foxconn factory in Shenzhen. That is precisely the same reason why manufacturing had moved amass to China - cheap and limiteless supply of workers + no unionized movement.

 

They did very very well for over 10 years in China. Making iPhones/iPads as subtractors fro Apple Inc.

 

Then problems begun to appear recently - workers started committing suicide, worker opening demanding for higher wage etc.

 

Very normal right? No. In China, you expectd ordinary blue-collars to toe-CCCP's line and suffer. Oh no. Foxconn executives were very surprised.

 

The Chinese workers were actually pretty well protected by the senior politicians in Beijing?

 

So can Foxconn do? Withdraw invesstment from Shenzhen? No. Fire the workers? No.

 

They decided to automate with expected millions of robots added into the existing factory + intention to setup another factory some more!

 

What does that tell you about China's governemnt-business-labour relation? And you compare this to Singapore.

 

You pretty much get my draft.

 

http://pulitzercenter.org/articles/foxconn...-workers-rights

 

 

 

 

 

It g

[Icedbs]

I know you have to make the decisions that you do in managing a business. It is a business decision end of the day.

 

The argument put forth by many arguing the case of the local workers is real. If economic policies dun turn out well, I blame the govt. They are the ones that mess up. They promised more good years, they promised world class governance, they shout they are the best, that they know best. They are getting paid the most.

 

Dun blame govt? Blame who?

 

Lots of engineers churned out 10 to 20 years ago are now stuck in a rut. Who came out with the decision to churn out at least 60% of local graduates to be engineers?

 

Just be fair, I say. If you dish it out, you better be able to receive the same........

 

Dude, I was part of that decision (the part on churning out engineers as graduates)

 

But I didn't stuck in the rut. Neither do I have help from parents. My University education was paid fully by myself. And that's about it...no MBA or whatever like most FTs have. No honours in my degree also. I was just happy to complete my degree.

 

The competitive landscape in Spore is tough, but I choose to think that it brings out the best in me and prove to these FTs I can do better. I didn't blame anyone.

 

In the end, I was right at the top managing a US- listed firm in Singapore. I was probably their youngest as well.

 

The locals always have a light at the end of the tunnel. But they need to work hard to search for that light.

Edited August 14, 2011 by Icedbs

[Evillusion]

So looks like the options for locals is 1)Depressed Wages or 2)Unemployment.

 

Dont look like very good options.

 

And I tot our gharmen was so good at solving our problems to give us a good life to justify their super high salary? Life in SG suddenly doen not look so rosy anymore.

it has never been rosy for the past few yrs! thats y the tot of migrating has cross my mind! Australia which is so big and have economy bigger than singapore had tightened up their immigration requirement, sadly here we have the opposite. :angry: :angry:

[Icedbs]

Interesting that you brought up Taiwan-owned Foxconn factory in Shenzhen. That is precisely the same reason why manufacturing had moved amass to China - cheap and limiteless supply of workers + no unionized movement.

 

They did very very well for over 10 years in China. Making iPhones/iPads as subtractors fro Apple Inc.

 

Then problems begun to appear recently - workers started committing suicide, worker opening demanding for higher wage etc.

 

Very normal right? No. In China, you expectd ordinary blue-collars to toe-CCCP's line and suffer. Oh no. Foxconn executives were very surprised.

 

The Chinese workers were actually pretty well protected by the senior politicians in Beijing?

 

So can Foxconn do? Withdraw invesstment from Shenzhen? No. Fire the workers? No.

 

They decided to automate with expected millions of robots added into the existing factory + intention to setup another factory some more!

 

What does that tell you about China's governemnt-business-labour relation? And you compare this to Singapore.

 

You pretty much get my draft.

 

You are not wrong in your assessment about Foxconn. They have their issues.

 

But then despite all their suicide, fire, and others, they are still Apple, and another US MNCs choice of manufacturer today.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Pisces69]

it has never been rosy for the past few yrs! thats y the tot of migrating has cross my mind! Australia which is so big and have economy bigger than singapore had tightened up their immigration requirement, sadly here we have the opposite. :angry: :angry:

 

 

I already can say retired so looking at Johor. I finding SG more n more unfriendly to its citizens n more n more friendly to foreigners.

 

Looks like our super duper highly paid ministers have run out of ideas? But still want to keep the high salaries.

[Piyopico]

Dude, I was part of that decision (the part on churning out engineers as graduates)

 

But I didn't stuck in the rut. Neither do I have help from parents. My University education was paid fully by myself. And that's about it...no MBA or whatever like most FTs have. No honours in my degree also. I was just happy to complete my degree.

 

The competitive landscape in Spore is tough, but I choose to think that it brings out the best in me and prove to these FTs I can do better. I didn't blame anyone.

 

In the end, I was right at the top managing a US- listed firm in Singapore. I am probably their youngest as well.

 

The locals always have a light at the end of the tunnel. But they need to work hard to search for that light.

 

I am happy for you it worked out.

 

However, I am pretty sure you are the rare minority. How many of your cohort managed the same?

 

You succeeded despite the wrong decisions of MIW, not because of it. Many others have tried to get out of the rut but failed. You are blessed.

[Evillusion]

I already can say retired so looking at Johor. I finding SG more n more unfriendly to its citizens n more n more friendly to foreigners.

 

Looks like our super duper highly paid ministers have run out of ideas? But still want to keep the high salaries.

same same! i looking at johor too.....another is australia and i am giving this idea to my son. if others can be a pr here why cant we be pr somewhere else!

Edited August 14, 2011 by Eviilusion

[Icedbs]

I am happy for you it worked out.

 

However, I am pretty sure you are the rare minority. How many of your cohort managed the same?

 

You succeeded despite the wrong decisions of MIW, not because of it. Many others have tried to get out of the rut but failed. You are blessed.

 

Thanks..but I hardly ever thought I was blessed.

 

Because I am pretty sure, a majority of Sporeans have better family background and education than me. Bless are those who are born with a silver spoon.

 

But if I can do it....I am sure many can.

 

 

 

 

[Redmouthfish]

So Mr Tan Jee Say is right afterall. We should not be focusing on manufacturing as it is non value-adding and we have to deplete ourselves to compete against costs.

 

I met up with Mr Tan Jee Say after GE and had a long discussion on manufacturing and where it is heading. For that, I was very impressed with his assesment, as what he was saying is actually what I am seeing in the industry.

 

I have been in the semi-con manufacturing industry for the past 15 years and currently holding the position of manufacturing manager in a US MNC. Even for me, I think manufacturing in SG is a sunset industry and for the sake of our children, we should really phase out manufacturing in SG. PAP should really listen to Mr Tan Jee Say, even if they do not want 100% of the ideas in Mr Tan's 6 areas of economy regeneration proposal.

 

 

Anyway LKY and LHL said different things before and after GE, and now the famous statement is it cannot be helped. So what why are we paying them millions of dollors and everything cannot be helped?

 

Lastly I think LKY/LHL is putting party above country. They cannot accept any ideas ( even good ones ) from opposition.

[CKP]

1 Monaco 186,175

2 Liechtenstein 134,392

1 Luxembourg 108,747 [/color]

 

These 3 countries has a lot of leverage from Europe. Liechestein for example, has a lot of "care" from Swiss...and they benefit a lot from the EuroZone economy.

 

Just look at Greece. When they are in trouble, France and Germany went to bail them out.

 

If Spore is in trouble, do you think Msia and Thailand will come and bail us out? Our surrounding are pretty hostile neighbours.

 

This is why the 3 smaller countries you state above don't need FTs. They can get talent from the entire Europe, and paid using the same Euro currency.

 

YOU SAID "Just look at Greece. When they are in trouble, France and Germany went to bail them out."

 

MY REPLY: Dont make my toes laugh please. By associating the rich countries such as Monaco, Liechtestein and Luxembourg with Greece/EU bailouts tells me you are clueless with the real situation or just want to try a smoke bomb for the sake of argument. DO you really expect people with a sound mind but lack the actual hard facts to believe the 3 richest countries NEED a GREECE styled bailout... LOL

 

 

YOU SAID, " These 3 countries has a lot of leverage from Europe. Liechestein for example, has a lot of "care" from Swiss...and they benefit a lot from the EuroZone economy. "

 

MY REPLY: Dont try to be too clever and throw around generic terms like "leverage" and "care" which could mean anything and everything. BE specific like me: "Singapore and Monaco leverage on F1/Casinoes to boost their economies" and "Singapore benefits from intra EAST ASIA/ASEAN trade just like they benefit from Euro trade" (which is not saying much if anything).

 

 

YOU SAID: "If Spore is in trouble, do you think Msia and Thailand will come and bail us out? Our surrounding are pretty hostile neighbours."

 

MY REPLY: Nonsense. Trouble? The richest countries in trouble??? You actually intentionally DEFLECT from the original topic of discussion about "small and rich countries" to "trouble and needing bailouts"... LOL are you a politician? Dont try to throw in irrational FEAR based unrelated arguments.

 

Hostile environment? There you go again with your favourite siege mentality argument.

 

 

 

YOU SAID :"This is why the 3 smaller countries you state above don't need FTs. They can get talent from the entire Europe, and paid using the same Euro currency."

 

MY REPLY: You should cross check the logical fallacies of your own statement: "dont need FTs" and "can get talent from europe" at the same time, which is an oxymoron.

 

Then you compounded that with an unrelated "same currency" to mask the failed logic.

 

LOL

Edited August 14, 2011 by CKP

[Piyopico]

Bro, it would be a more fruitful discussion if you are more friendly.

 

 

 

[CKP]

Bro, it would be a more fruitful discussion if you are more friendly.

 

Number of posts doesnt matter, it's the quality of the posts. I dont care how many posts he has or how many bros he has here...

 

He may be successful in life but he's throwing weak and irrelevant points around, and hiding it with a friendly tone (for cosmetic purpose which is worse) because I can be "nice nice" but throw around factually misleading commments.

 

Well if you think it is more important to be friendly friendly over the discovery of truth and reality, that's your beef.

 

 

Edited August 14, 2011 by CKP

[Freestylers09]

i felt abit wierd when come to this..

 

when people succeeded or came out to be good from certain aspect..people will asking u are lucky,etc etc..not many are out there etc..this kind of mentality..

 

however..there's always a question why and how they do it...

 

like i always tell my guards..if u dun help urself..i cannot help u and sorry u have to go..have to help themselves before i can help them..

 

some can understand,some just slacking and i just ask them go..

 

same question..when 1 succeeded etc..question is whats the differences between them and others?or those who tio pok, whats the differences? instead..we see it in other way...

 

wierd...

 

but after many discussion of FT/FW..i mentioned i on FW..against FT :)

[Tigerwoods]

guys.....I think all these choices that the gov. made are driven by the fact that Singapore need to make extremely stark choices due to the circumstances she is in.

 

Singapore is small, no natural resources and the only resources to keep the country growing is the people.

 

If the people are not good enough, the country will go backwards

 

If the number of people do not grow, the country's economy will stagnate

 

All the current issues are a necessary evil because the country has grown too fast within a short 40-50 years. The first generation that went through that 40-50 years have benefited from that growth, but the later generations are now facing the brunt of it. It may have been better if they had pace out that growth in the past.

 

There is no easy choices if one choose to remain in Singapore. You just have to keep pushing the envelope and take the pressure.

The stress and tension is because GOV want to grow too big too fast. Frankly I never agree why a country wants to grow 15% per year when it can pace itself to grow at 5 ? Why do we need to grow so fast ??

 

Every single developed country faces the same problem - grown to 1st world and becoming TOO Expensive for itself.

The 1st will be the last, the last will be 1st.

 

Time to remove Greed from the system.

[Icedbs]

Number of posts doesnt matter, it's the quality of the posts. I dont care how many posts he has or how many bros he has here...

 

He may be successful in life but he's throwing weak and irrelevant points around, and hiding it with a friendly tone (for cosmetic purpose which is worse) because I can be "nice nice" but throw around factually misleading commments.

 

Well if you think it is more important to be friendly friendly over the discovery of truth and reality, that's your beef.

 

 

 

 

All I can say is that countries in Europe have a very different economic structure compared to Spore. They have longer history, better skillset competencies and the formation of EuroZone has brought them closer trade with one another. When comes to talent, they have no short of it.....they can source from the whole Europe and never consider them as "foreigners".

 

And I didn't say those small countries that you stated need bailouts. What I am stressing is that they have an EuroZone ecosystem around them that help them to grow and prosper. And if they ever run into trouble, there is always a ECB that could help them out. Greece is just an example. Heck, they could even think of saving Italy and Spain whose economy is so much bigger than Greece.

 

Singapore does not have such an ecosystem. We only have hostile neighbors waiting to snatch away investments from us.. If we don't keep our cost low or offer a large talent pool for MNCs, they can always go elsewhere and more Singaporeans will be out of job.

 

If you think I am giving you a smoke screen...so be it. I am not from grassroots or gov. so I don't see the need to "defend" here. What I am telling is a true reality of some of the difficult decisions MNCs here faced as I have lead one before in Spore.

Edited August 14, 2011 by Icedbs

[Icedbs]

The stress and tension is because GOV want to grow too big too fast. Frankly I never agree why a country wants to grow 15% per year when it can pace itself to grow at 5 ? Why do we need to grow so fast ??

 

Every single developed country faces the same problem - grown to 1st world and becoming TOO Expensive for itself.

The 1st will be the last, the last will be 1st.

 

Time to remove Greed from the system.

 

 

This is a good question. No idea why they want to grow so fast.....perhaps didn't want our neighbors to ever catch up?

 

But I am sure the 1st generation of Sporeans ain't complaining.