Jump to content

LKY confirmed: Immigration caused stress and tension


Wishcumstrue
 Share

Recommended Posts

Dude, I was part of that decision (the part on churning out engineers as graduates)

 

But I didn't stuck in the rut. Neither do I have help from parents. My University education was paid fully by myself. And that's about it...no MBA or whatever like most FTs have. No honours in my degree also. I was just happy to complete my degree.

 

The competitive landscape in Spore is tough, but I choose to think that it brings out the best in me and prove to these FTs I can do better. I didn't blame anyone.

 

In the end, I was right at the top managing a US- listed firm in Singapore. I was probably their youngest as well.

 

The locals always have a light at the end of the tunnel. But they need to work hard to search for that light.

 

Seriously, nobody's really concern with the 5% of the population but more of the majority of Singaporeans.

 

In the past I've really only see foreigners working in manufacturing, construction and positions which shows certain level of expertise. But now, they have foreigners working in ANY professions (starbuck branch manager? You gotta be kidding me.) which is a problem for our citizens.

 

Although I'm not in SG but I feel the pain of my fellow countrymen. Only reason is they're cheaper (not by a lot too) but not neccesarily smarter in any sense (e.g. insulting locals?).

↡ Advertisement
Link to post
Share on other sites

Turbocharged

Seriously, nobody's really concern with the 5% of the population but more of the majority of Singaporeans.

 

In the past I've really only see foreigners working in manufacturing, construction and positions which shows certain level of expertise. But now, they have foreigners working in ANY professions (starbuck branch manager? You gotta be kidding me.) which is a problem for our citizens.

 

Although I'm not in SG but I feel the pain of my fellow countrymen. Only reason is they're cheaper (not by a lot too) but not neccesarily smarter in any sense (e.g. insulting locals?).

 

I agree with you.....just that shareholders doesn't see it this way.

 

They only want to see the company make money and keep their cost low. They are not going to care whether these FTs or locals smarter or not.

 

And these shareholders can be Sporeans as well. So how? It can be really a conflict.

 

Look at Apple. They are extremely well capitalised, tremendous growth company, but still have to keep their cost low by using China as their manufacturing base. Can they move their manufacturing back to US, compromise their profit margins and still expect investors to love them? Not likely......every shareholders want the best return for their money.

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

I met up with Mr Tan Jee Say after GE and had a long discussion on manufacturing and where it is heading. For that, I was very impressed with his assesment, as what he was saying is actually what I am seeing in the industry.

 

I have been in the semi-con manufacturing industry for the past 15 years and currently holding the position of manufacturing manager in a US MNC. Even for me, I think manufacturing in SG is a sunset industry and for the sake of our children, we should really phase out manufacturing in SG. PAP should really listen to Mr Tan Jee Say, even if they do not want 100% of the ideas in Mr Tan's 6 areas of economy regeneration proposal.

 

 

Anyway LKY and LHL said different things before and after GE, and now the famous statement is it cannot be helped. So what why are we paying them millions of dollors and everything cannot be helped?

 

Lastly I think LKY/LHL is putting party above country. They cannot accept any ideas ( even good ones ) from opposition.

 

Semi-con can be considered an advance manufacturing industry here. When Chartered is bought over by ATIC to form Globalfoundries, they've moved their next technology node R&D over to Dresden, Germany. Needless to say, equipments will be bought to support these R&D and eventually large scale manufacturing. By dropping off these next generation nodes R&D here, production will not be transferred here since they have capacities at the New York and Dresden fabs. In a few year's time, GF will definitely shutdown some fabs (high chance the one at Tampines will be the first to go) and downsize. And I believe GF won't be expanding beyond Fab 7/7C in Singapore.

 

I believe as a manufacturing manager for the past 15 years, you would have noticed the downturn cycle is getting shorter and shorter.

 

Now 2 (Micropolis and Chartered) of Ho Ching's expensive and labour extensive toys are let go.

We all can know which direction manufacturing is heading here.

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

as i say again...i have worked with these foreign pmets and they are paid the same as any locals. for ur statement that i highlighted in red it will surely cos a ruckus in this forum. u are comparing a local degree that is recognised world wide for a degree from a 3rd world nation. Can you do the maths and tell me how much does the SG graduate have to pay for study loans and thats not including his own personal expenses and such. Naturally the Sg graduate wants and need more than filipino graduate. With his salary of sgd1800 the filipino guy will have the sky back home while the SG guy will be still be in the red for a few yrs. And if such a company exist i think they are better off opening up a plant in Phillipine. [thumbsdown]

 

I suggest our ITEs , O level drop out go to Philipines , India study one , two yrs get a deg . Can apply job here as engineers , bankers can or not ? If FTs can , we should be able to .

Link to post
Share on other sites

All I can say is that countries in Europe have a very different economic structure compared to Spore. They have longer history, better skillset competencies and the formation of EuroZone has brought them closer trade with one another. When comes to talent, they have no short of it.....they can source from the whole Europe and never consider them as "foreigners".

 

And I didn't say those small countries that you stated need bailouts. What I am stressing is that they have an EuroZone ecosystem around them that help them to grow and prosper. And if they ever run into trouble, there is always a ECB that could help them out. Greece is just an example. Heck, they could even think of saving Italy and Spain whose economy is so much bigger than Greece.

 

Singapore does not have such an ecosystem. We only have hostile neighbors waiting to snatch away investments from us.. If we don't keep our cost low or offer a large talent pool for MNCs, they can always go elsewhere and more Singaporeans will be out of job.

 

If you think I am giving you a smoke screen...so be it. I am not from grassroots or gov. so I don't see the need to "defend" here. What I am telling is a true reality of some of the difficult decisions MNCs here faced as I have lead one before in Spore.

 

 

You said,

Edited by CKP
Link to post
Share on other sites

Neutral Newbie

I am happy for you it worked out.

 

However, I am pretty sure you are the rare minority. How many of your cohort managed the same?

 

You succeeded despite the wrong decisions of MIW, not because of it. Many others have tried to get out of the rut but failed. You are blessed.

 

 

Thumbs up [laugh]

Link to post
Share on other sites

Good post. Was about to put down a few thoughts on paper about the flawed thought process from Icedbs but your post beat me to it.

 

Got to keep in mind that for many folks out there, the fear mongering by the PAP about Singapore being a tiny defenseless nation surrounded by large, capricious and malicious neighbors who are waiting for us to make the smallest of slip-ups so that they can pounce and swallow us like a choice piece of meat has been rather effective in taking root in their minds. This is especially true for those who do not bother to study and analyze the geo-political situation in Asia and instead rely on the esteemed foreign policy section of the Straits Times and pearls of wisdom from the PAP strongmen.

 

Found it especially amusing that this fellow was attributing the economic success of these small nations to the EuroZone formation, when only one is an actual EuroZone member. In reality, EuroZone membership is a bitter pill for Luxembourg to swallow due to pressure from the EU on Luxembourg to restructure its banking secrecy laws to facilitate greater access to such records, which has been hurting its status as an investment and banking zone.

 

In fact, a cursory look at the countries you've mentioned yields an obvious common denominator - these countries are typically investment capitals, tax havens or banking centers protected with blankets of banking secrecy laws. Not that different from Singapore sans our manufacturing history. Andy Xie said it all in his leaked email, didn't he?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Dude, if you are so convince that those smaller Europe countries are better, then why are you not moving there?

 

Why put all this angst inside you?

 

I have staff who were transferred to Europe branches with accommodation all paid for but in less than 6 months, all wanted to come back.

 

So go and give a try......if it works for you, I will be happy for you.

 

Maybe you try replying with objective and factual answers instead of diverging from the topic and discussion at hand while making snarky comments while you're at it?

 

Admitting that you were wrong and have no clue is still an objective and factual answer - no shame about it.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Dude, if you are so convince that those smaller Europe countries are better, then why are you not moving there?

 

Why put all this angst inside you?

 

I have staff who were transferred to Europe branches with accommodation all paid for but in less than 6 months, all wanted to come back.

 

So go and give a try......if it works for you, I will be happy for you.

 

 

Bro, I see it more as frustration rather than angst. Frustration that not enough people question the adage put up by the MIW.

 

I give you an analogy. Your wife is flawed. Do you stick with her and try to make her a better person or do you go for another woman?

 

Not the best analogy but it is the same with us. We love our country and want to see changes and work for the betterment. Why do people refuse to see tis and keep telling those with alternative voices to leave Singapore?

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Turbocharged

Maybe you try replying with objective and factual answers instead of diverging from the topic and discussion at hand while making snarky comments while you're at it?

 

Admitting that you were wrong and have no clue is still an objective and factual answer - no shame about it.

 

Pointless. I try to be objective, but different people always have different viewpoints. Just like if someone doesn't like durian, you can try to convince him how good durian is, but no way in hell is he going to like that fruit.

 

There is nothing wrong having different viewpoints.

 

But if one is very convince of his views and strongly stood by it, then the best way to prove his point is to walk the talk. Otherwise, it's just whining and noise. Just like when I was very convince that my US company can do well in Spore despite the labour cost, I took the risk and setup a shop here.

 

And why should I admit I was wrong? I ran a MNC here from startup to success, from 30 people to 7000 people.....and when I left, 90% of the managers are Sporeans. I didn't choose them because they are Spreoans. I chose them simply based on merit and they did well. Sporeans can thrive if they are more positive and carve their own destiny for themselves regardless there are FT or not.

 

 

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Bro, I see it more as frustration rather than angst. Frustration that not enough people question the adage put up by the MIW.

 

I give you an analogy. Your wife is flawed. Do you stick with her and try to make her a better person or do you go for another woman?

 

Not the best analogy but it is the same with us. We love our country and want to see changes and work for the betterment. Why do people refuse to see tis and keep telling those with alternative voices to leave Singapore?

 

It's arrogance and a lack of empathy.

 

They think that they've made it, they've arrived, and hence they must be of a superior breed than all those who are not as fortunate to be in the right place, in the right time, or enjoy the same level of resources.

 

That's fine with me - maybe they take a little too much pride in achievements that are not as extraordinary as they would like to think - but they have the right to be proud of their own efforts.

 

What's damning, however, is their attitude that just because they've achieved a certain level of success, all those who have yet to reach this self-perceived "level" are scorned as incapable, incompetent buffons who can jolly well sod off and end their own life or whatever pleases them, as long as they stop being such a burden to their country or mankind. Some call it elitism, some call it arrogance - well there are many ways to skin a cat, but a skinned cat is a dead cat, so it doesn't really matters what you call this attitude, as long as you realize how detestable, small-minded and misguided such a mentality and attitude is.

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Pointless. I try to be objective, but different people always have different viewpoints. Just like if someone doesn't like durian, you can try to convince him how good durian is, but no way in hell is he going to like that fruit.

 

There is nothing wrong having different viewpoints.

 

But if one is very convince of his views and strongly stood by it, then the best way to prove his point is to walk the talk. Otherwise, it's just whining and noise. Just like when I was very convince that my US company can do well in Spore despite the labour cost, I took the risk and setup a shop here.

 

And why should I admit I was wrong? I ran a MNC here from startup to success, from 30 people to 7000 people.....and when I left, 90% of the managers are Sporeans. I didn't choose them because they are Spreoans. I chose them simply based on merit and they did well. Sporeans can thrive if they are more positive and carve their own destiny for themselves regardless there are FT or not.

 

Hey, no worries. Sometimes my language may appear harsh during a discussion but it's just that I passionately believe in what a say.

 

Nothing personal and no point being personal to begin with. So NO WORRIES... I am sure you are a competent and nice guy.

 

I dont believe in coming to discuss in different viewpoints for the sake of being "balanced".

 

The idea of a discussion is to sort out what is closer to the truth. It is rather a pointless exercise to agree to disagree for the sake of political correctness.

 

[;)]

Edited by CKP
Link to post
Share on other sites

Bro, I see it more as frustration rather than angst. Frustration that not enough people question the adage put up by the MIW.

 

I give you an analogy. Your wife is flawed. Do you stick with her and try to make her a better person or do you go for another woman?

 

Not the best analogy but it is the same with us. We love our country and want to see changes and work for the betterment. Why do people refuse to see tis and keep telling those with alternative voices to leave Singapore?

 

 

Where will half of America's electorate population leave, if the democrats tell the unhappy republicans to leave the US?

 

LOL

 

[:p]

Link to post
Share on other sites

Pointless. I try to be objective, but different people always have different viewpoints. Just like if someone doesn't like durian, you can try to convince him how good durian is, but no way in hell is he going to like that fruit.

 

There is nothing wrong having different viewpoints.

 

But if one is very convince of his views and strongly stood by it, then the best way to prove his point is to walk the talk. Otherwise, it's just whining and noise. Just like when I was very convince that my US company can do well in Spore despite the labour cost, I took the risk and setup a shop here.

 

And why should I admit I was wrong? I ran a MNC here from startup to success, from 30 people to 7000 people.....and when I left, 90% of the managers are Sporeans. I didn't choose them because they are Spreoans. I chose them simply based on merit and they did well. Sporeans can thrive if they are more positive and carve their own destiny for themselves regardless there are FT or not.

 

"Dude", as you're so fond of using, I couldn't give two hoots about what you've achieved or think you've achieved in your career. Until or unless you're willing to divulge your real-life identify so we can all evaluate your claims and achievements, it doesn't impact on the facts or the quality of the discussion currently at hand, especially when the level of knowledge you're currently demonstrating conflicts with what you've claimed to achieve.

 

I like to think that a discussion between mature adults does not have to involve trumpeting of one's personal achievements or status of any sort, especially when such claims cannot be verified online. Rather, such a discussion should revolve around verifiable facts and robust reasoning that follows after such facts have been established. Facts are facts and are non-debatable - if you've erroneously made a factual error in your arguements then you are wrong, period. I don't care if you're the CEO of General Electrics or Shell Petroleum - if you've made a factual error, be a man and admit it instead of saying something along the lines of, "I'm a big Fxxk who managed XXX people over XXX years and managed XXX KPIs, so why should I admit I'm wrong". It reflects poorly on your character and integrity.

 

Now, if there's a disagreement over reasoning that follows from facts, that's a disagreement of viewpoints and gentlemen can agree to disagree and part ways amicably (this rarely happens) or the proceedings can degenerate into a (often hilarious) flame war (this is most often the case). But currently, we have yet to reach this point because certain facts have yet to be established, and certain factual errors have yet to be corrected. I'll let you gentlemen slug it out in this case [:p]

Edited by Lightbringer
Link to post
Share on other sites

Good post. Was about to put down a few thoughts on paper about the flawed thought process from Icedbs but your post beat me to it.

 

Got to keep in mind that for many folks out there, the fear mongering by the PAP about Singapore being a tiny defenseless nation surrounded by large, capricious and malicious neighbors who are waiting for us to make the smallest of slip-ups so that they can pounce and swallow us like a choice piece of meat has been rather effective in taking root in their minds. This is especially true for those who do not bother to study and analyze the geo-political situation in Asia and instead rely on the esteemed foreign policy section of the Straits Times and pearls of wisdom from the PAP strongmen.

 

Found it especially amusing that this fellow was attributing the economic success of these small nations to the EuroZone formation, when only one is an actual EuroZone member. In reality, EuroZone membership is a bitter pill for Luxembourg to swallow due to pressure from the EU on Luxembourg to restructure its banking secrecy laws to facilitate greater access to such records, which has been hurting its status as an investment and banking zone.

 

In fact, a cursory look at the countries you've mentioned yields an obvious common denominator - these countries are typically investment capitals, tax havens or banking centers protected with blankets of banking secrecy laws. Not that different from Singapore sans our manufacturing history. Andy Xie said it all in his leaked email, didn't he?

 

Yes, but if one were to expand the list of high income countries (say those above USD 30K GDP per capita) and CITIES, with population of 6 million and below, then you will see Singapore is not really expectional or a miracle because they are many many more cities and countries that fulfill the conditions.

 

In addition, if one is aware that Singapore's apparent past success is based on:

 

1. Government/public sector getting involved into entreprise and picking the major winners and losers (both foreign and local).

 

2. Economy is leveraged on increasing population and increasing labour inputs/foreign workers. For every 5% GDP growth, 1% is from productivity gains and 4% is from increase in size of workforce.

 

Then, one will agree Singapore's model is not sustainable as a nation because the above strategies may work intitally during an early stage of development, however, it becomes much less allocative efficient as the stage of development matures.

 

Just my thoughts.

 

[cool]

Edited by CKP
Link to post
Share on other sites

"Dude", as you're so fond of using, I couldn't give two hoots about what you've achieved or think you've achieved in your career. Until or unless you're willing to divulge your real-life identify so we can all evaluate your claims and achievements, it doesn't impact on the facts or the quality of the discussion currently at hand, especially when the level of knowledge you're currently demonstrating conflicts with what you've claimed to achieve.

 

I like to think that a discussion between mature adults does not have to involve trumpeting of one's personal achievements or status of any sort, especially when such claims cannot be verified online. Rather, such a discussion should revolve around verifiable facts and robust reasoning that follows after such facts have been established. Facts are facts and are non-debatable - if you've erroneously made a factual error in your arguements then you are wrong, period. I don't care if you're the CEO of General Electrics or Shell Petroleum - if you've made a factual error, be a man and admit it instead of saying something along the lines of, "I'm a big Fxxk who managed XXX people over XXX years and managed XXX KPIs, so why should I admit I'm wrong". It reflects poorly on your character and integrity.

 

Now, if there's a disagreement over reasoning that follows from facts, that's a disagreement of viewpoints and gentlemen can agree to disagree and part ways amicably (this rarely happens) or the proceedings can degenerate into a (often hilarious) flame war (this is most often the case). But currently, we have yet to reach this point because certain facts have yet to be established, and certain factual errors have yet to be corrected. I'll let you gentlemen slug it out in this case [:p]

 

You lawyer ah?

 

 

:D

Link to post
Share on other sites

Also like to say that success of any sort is indeed a blessing - a blessing that you were in the right place, in the right time, certain factors were tilted in your favor, and there was a fortuitous confluence of events and factors that led to the achievement of a particular milestone in a successful path.

 

That doesn't means I don't believe in hard work, determination or personal capability - these are all important factors that we can cultivate within ourselves to improve our chances of success. But possessing these three qualities does not guarantee success in any manner. Therefore, it follows that a successful person is "blessed" - not in the divine sense, but in a roll-of-the-dice sense.

 

Therefore it beehoves any "successful" person to be mindful that there are many more individuals out there in our society as well as the world who might be equally capable, determined or hardworking - but have not enjoyed a similarly-"blessed" roll of the dice, and hence might be perceived as being unsuccessful. As for the less capable, determined or hard working individual in society - they are still human beings with aspirations, dreams, family and personal needs. They are also human, and not mere numbers to be moved around in a spreadsheet subjected either to accounting rules or economic principles.

 

Alas, our politicians have long lost sight of this. The elitist mentality and fast-track scheme all point prominently to their lack of such a social conscience and humility.

 

It is indeed refreshing to see esteemed minds and luminaries such as CSJ and Tan Jee Say touch common ground with the less-fortunate and common folks - I'm sure they are of the same mind and heart as me.

↡ Advertisement
Link to post
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...