Very epic debate on vasantham on 6.9mil population!

[Relacklabrudder3]

vasantham debate on foreigners 6.9mil

 

 

wah, only vasantham got balls sia! very epic, very candid, no holds barred one!

 

got substitles

[Mustank]

vasantham debate on foreigners 6.9mil

 

 

wah, only vasantham got balls sia! very epic, very candid, no holds barred one!

 

got substitles

 

Got sio pah or not?

[Kiadaw]

Unforunately I am at work now, so only manage a min of the show. Seems much better than the shows on channel 5 & 8 already.

 

the long hair girl with black t-shirt quite a looker also.

 

Can someone summerize?

Edited March 4, 2013 by Kiadaw

[1fast1]

Can someone summerize?

 

Just finished watching it. Shanmugam comes on in the second half and basically explains the gahmen position.

 

It's the usual arguments that we've all heard before, and often expressed ourselves. The interesting thing is that they're freely allowing such views to be aired in a Mediacorp channel. The best arguments from the floor (IMO) were:

 

- the girl: this is OUR country, where the hell else are we supposed to go?

 

- trades unionist uncle: don't argue that Singaporeans are not willing to do such and such job. If the pay is right, they'll do it. If a "low level" job pays only $700-800 a month, then it's infeasible for a Singaporean to do it, because you can't live properly at that level of earning. It becomes necessary to take on another job, at least, then quality of life suffers.

 

- the girl: the perception that foreigners are taking over jobs that Singaporeans clearly want to do. The girl brought up the personal example of her family members who are qualified postgrads, but are unable to find a job - the same jobs that they've seen many FTs take up easily with similar or worse qualifications.

 

- the trades unionist uncle said the gahmen was at fault for not devoting enough money and thought into modernising and automating certain industries. If that had been done in a timely fashion instead of taking in the easy option of importing FWs, not only would Singaporeans be more willing to do those jobs, their pay would be commensurately higher (because of increased productivity from automation).

 

- the same uncle lamented the overcrowding, and said we should put a stop to it.

 

- the auntie said that Singapore may be growing wealthier, but the people don't seem to be benefiting.

 

- the one obvious FT guy tried arguing that the Singaporeans were wrong in their sentiments, but was more or less shouted down by the Singaporeans. The FT guy tried arguing that he wouldn't be staying on in Singapore, so they can't blame him. But the auntie (I think) quickly rebutted that that may be true for him, but many other foreigners are happy to take up PR, and ultimately citizenship. When this happens, the gahmen will not say no. I thought this was a very good point - the open-legs policy summarised succinctly.

 

Then Shanmu came on. His main points:

 

- he claimed that the gahmen will strictly control the number of PRs and citizenships it issues. The influx of foreigners should not be a cause of alarm because of this.

 

- He said there were 2 classes of foreign employees. The first is FWs, who basically do jobs Sgreans don't want to do. The second are the FTs, who are competing with Singaporeans.

 

- He acknowledged that foreign companies - MNCs like banks - will want to employ foreigners in key positions simply as a condition of setting up shop here. For example, he said that a bank may want to start operations in Sg and hire 6000 people. They will reach an understanding with the gahmen that they want 1000 of their own people, but will employ 5000 Singaporeans. They'll certainly want the top posts like CEO to be taken by foreigners with experience. Can the gahmen say no to 5000 new jobs for Singaporeans? If they insist that the bank give all 6000 jobs to locals, the bank will just refuse and set up shop in Shanghai, India or somewhere else that will play ball. So the gahmen just goes along with the lesser of two evils.

 

- he said the gahmen will ensure that every Singaporean will be able to afford a home. Right now, the percentage of Singaporeans owning their own home is 93% (83% HDB, 10% private). He said that's the highest in the world. He further said that regulations against speculation and flipping are critical in ensuring that housing remains affordable to most Singaporeans.

 

- he said that cars are a different matter. The gahmen really can't do more to make cars more affordable. Right now, 45% of Singaporean households own cars, which is already a much higher percentage than in comparable cities like London, where only 20% of households own cars. So he was basically implying that we're bitching about nothing. Of course, he said that we can't afford to become a city with perpetually jammed roads like Jakarta, etc.

 

- when challenged about the gahmen being fixated on economic growth, he acknowledged it, and said that the economy was the lifeblood of the nation. Without economic growth, nothing would work - the people's salaries wouldn't go up, there would be insufficient job creation, and young men and women would cease to have a good future. He made no apologies about the gahmen putting economic growth as its first priority. He cited Japan as an example of an economy that's been sliding for the past 20 or so years as a cautionary tale.

 

- a senior floor member challenged him on this - considering that many elderly Singaporeans are unable to even afford basic medicines and medical care, perhaps it may be good to put economic growth on the backburner and start caring about welfare first. This old gent also told him to look at Japan and Europe as countries that prioritised economic growth - and now see what's become of them. Do we want that to happen to Singapore?

 

- Shanmu rebutted this (rather weakly, I thought) by stating that the gahmen will always ensure that the medical needs of Singaporeans are taken care of by Medisave, shield and fund. I don't think he addressed the second point well.

 

- the host said that there had been 2 recent elections with starkly unexpected results. In that climate, was it wise to have brought out the white paper as a hot topic?

 

- to that, Shanmu said this was not canny or savvy politics. In fact, many would consider it political suicide to have brought up the paper in the face of dwindling popular support for the PAP. But the gahmen wanted to "forewarn" the young people in their 20s and 30s of the future. Also, he claimed (rather baldly, I thought) that this gahmen has always been truthful to the people.

 

Those were the main points. Points I thought especially good are highlighted.

 

Of course, I have my own opinions about many of these issues, but I'll just state what I think about one of the talking points. The thing Shanmu mentioned about MNCs wanting to hire a thousand foreigners to give 5000 Singaporeans jobs. I thought that was a very candid revelation. Of course, while superficially plausible, it's ultimately specious when you look at an example like the Citibank NRI branch in Singapore. This is a bank that hires a LOT of foreigners (I'm betting it's far more than 1 in 6) and those foreigners are certainly holding low lever jobs like "relationship manager" - certainly not CEO material. Plus the clients they're serving are largely Indian-origin Indians, many of whom are mostly invested outside Singapore. And when they uproot, those clients will take their money to wherever they're going, be it to Canada, OZ, or even back to India. Either way, very little this bank does really serves the interests of Singaporeans, so why does the gahmen allow it to persist, and even thrive?

 

I was, however, impressed with Shanmu's command of spoken Tamil. He's certainly much better than the utter embarrassment that was Jayakumar. Plus this guy can really think on his feet and give ready and (at least superficially) plausible answers to fairly tough questions. Certainly much more PM-material than lots of our other "Mini-Stars".

Edited March 4, 2013 by Turboflat4

[WTF]

Then PA must be of MNC's status 'cos I rem the racist Aussie woman who kena sacked after posting her racist remarks on FB.......

 

I won't blame the MNCs if they wanted to hire foreigners in some positions but I wonder if a garment-linked organisation like PA should lead by example to hire locals..........

[Watwheels]

I like the lady who said if sgp allows a foreign couple to settle in sgp(example), the husband bring the father mother, the wife bring her father mother, dan it does not really solve the aging population problem. What she say is right. Foreigners aren't orphans and they are not robots they grow old like us as well. It's just squeezing more ppl but not really solving the aging population issue. The aging population issue imo is like a shield to cover the bullsh!t.

[Albeniz]

Thanks Turboflat4 for the great summary.

 

One point raised by the auntie:

They bring in foreigners to support the aging Singaporeans.

But you have to remember that not just Singaporeans are growing old, the foreigners who come here to work will also get old 20 years later.

 

I thought that was funny but valid.

 

[Albeniz]

vasantham debate on foreigners 6.9mil

 

 

wah, only vasantham got balls sia! very epic, very candid, no holds barred one!

 

got substitles

 

I have always admired my Indian friends for their eloquence. They are articulate and could communicate their thoughts very well.

 

I like Pritam Singh and Vincent Wijeysingha!

 

How I wish I could speak like them.

Edited March 4, 2013 by Albeniz

[Watwheels]

Actually what's confusing are the stats they give for example. First they tell you nobody will know what will happen in 2030 dan they throw figures like in every 2 working adults 1 is an elderly. I'm assuming this is a worst case scenario. But the way they put it is like matter of fact. It's really misleading.

Dan say FW come here to work and dan 2-4 years later they leave but you will need to sustain that large FW workforce to sustain the mess they have created to keep it going.

 

I rather not listen altogether and choose no overcrowding in sgp to be my preferred choice.

[KaKiLang]

Feedback from some of my local Indian clients and butties, most top level fts brought in from India are mainly the fair skin upper caste Indians, our local majority are the dark skin, considered the lower caste to the fts, thus local Indians apply for positions or securing any contracts from this executives are not easy, which we other races don't directly felt it, they do. Most don't like the idea of bringing the caste system here .

Edited March 4, 2013 by KaKiLang

[Thaiyotakamli]

Just finished watching it. Shanmugam comes on in the second half and basically explains the gahmen position.

 

It's the usual arguments that we've all heard before, and often expressed ourselves. The interesting thing is that they're freely allowing such views to be aired in a Mediacorp channel. The best arguments from the floor (IMO) were:

 

- the girl: this is OUR country, where the hell else are we supposed to go?

 

- trades unionist uncle: don't argue that Singaporeans are not willing to do such and such job. If the pay is right, they'll do it. If a "low level" job pays only $700-800 a month, then it's infeasible for a Singaporean to do it, because you can't live properly at that level of earning. It becomes necessary to take on another job, at least, then quality of life suffers.

 

- the girl: the perception that foreigners are taking over jobs that Singaporeans clearly want to do. The girl brought up the personal example of her family members who are qualified postgrads, but are unable to find a job - the same jobs that they've seen many FTs take up easily with similar or worse qualifications.

 

- the trades unionist uncle said the gahmen was at fault for not devoting enough money and thought into modernising and automating certain industries. If that had been done in a timely fashion instead of taking in the easy option of importing FWs, not only would Singaporeans be more willing to do those jobs, their pay would be commensurately higher (because of increased productivity from automation).

 

- the same uncle lamented the overcrowding, and said we should put a stop to it.

 

- the auntie said that Singapore may be growing wealthier, but the people don't seem to be benefiting.

 

- the one obvious FT guy tried arguing that the Singaporeans were wrong in their sentiments, but was more or less shouted down by the Singaporeans. The FT guy tried arguing that he wouldn't be staying on in Singapore, so they can't blame him. But the auntie (I think) quickly rebutted that that may be true for him, but many other foreigners are happy to take up PR, and ultimately citizenship. When this happens, the gahmen will not say no. I thought this was a very good point - the open-legs policy summarised succinctly.

 

Then Shanmu came on. His main points:

 

- he claimed that the gahmen will strictly control the number of PRs and citizenships it issues. The influx of foreigners should not be a cause of alarm because of this.

 

- He said there were 2 classes of foreign employees. The first is FWs, who basically do jobs Sgreans don't want to do. The second are the FTs, who are competing with Singaporeans.

 

- He acknowledged that foreign companies - MNCs like banks - will want to employ foreigners in key positions simply as a condition of setting up shop here. For example, he said that a bank may want to start operations in Sg and hire 6000 people. They will reach an understanding with the gahmen that they want 1000 of their own people, but will employ 5000 Singaporeans. They'll certainly want the top posts like CEO to be taken by foreigners with experience. Can the gahmen say no to 5000 new jobs for Singaporeans? If they insist that the bank give all 6000 jobs to locals, the bank will just refuse and set up shop in Shanghai, India or somewhere else that will play ball. So the gahmen just goes along with the lesser of two evils.

 

- he said the gahmen will ensure that every Singaporean will be able to afford a home. Right now, the percentage of Singaporeans owning their own home is 93% (83% HDB, 10% private). He said that's the highest in the world. He further said that regulations against speculation and flipping are critical in ensuring that housing remains affordable to most Singaporeans.

 

- he said that cars are a different matter. The gahmen really can't do more to make cars more affordable. Right now, 45% of Singaporean households own cars, which is already a much higher percentage than in comparable cities like London, where only 20% of households own cars. So he was basically implying that we're bitching about nothing. Of course, he said that we can't afford to become a city with perpetually jammed roads like Jakarta, etc.

 

- when challenged about the gahmen being fixated on economic growth, he acknowledged it, and said that the economy was the lifeblood of the nation. Without economic growth, nothing would work - the people's salaries wouldn't go up, there would be insufficient job creation, and young men and women would cease to have a good future. He made no apologies about the gahmen putting economic growth as its first priority. He cited Japan as an example of an economy that's been sliding for the past 20 or so years as a cautionary tale.

 

- a senior floor member challenged him on this - considering that many elderly Singaporeans are unable to even afford basic medicines and medical care, perhaps it may be good to put economic growth on the backburner and start caring about welfare first. This old gent also told him to look at Japan and Europe as countries that prioritised economic growth - and now see what's become of them. Do we want that to happen to Singapore?

 

- Shanmu rebutted this (rather weakly, I thought) by stating that the gahmen will always ensure that the medical needs of Singaporeans are taken care of by Medisave, shield and fund. I don't think he addressed the second point well.

 

- the host said that there had been 2 recent elections with starkly unexpected results. In that climate, was it wise to have brought out the white paper as a hot topic?

 

- to that, Shanmu said this was not canny or savvy politics. In fact, many would consider it political suicide to have brought up the paper in the face of dwindling popular support for the PAP. But the gahmen wanted to "forewarn" the young people in their 20s and 30s of the future. Also, he claimed (rather baldly, I thought) that this gahmen has always been truthful to the people.

 

Those were the main points. Points I thought especially good are highlighted.

 

Of course, I have my own opinions about many of these issues, but I'll just state what I think about one of the talking points. The thing Shanmu mentioned about MNCs wanting to hire a thousand foreigners to give 5000 Singaporeans jobs. I thought that was a very candid revelation. Of course, while superficially plausible, it's ultimately specious when you look at an example like the Citibank NRI branch in Singapore. This is a bank that hires a LOT of foreigners (I'm betting it's far more than 1 in 6) and those foreigners are certainly holding low lever jobs like "relationship manager" - certainly not CEO material. Plus the clients they're serving are largely Indian-origin Indians, many of whom are mostly invested outside Singapore. And when they uproot, those clients will take their money to wherever they're going, be it to Canada, OZ, or even back to India. Either way, very little this bank does really serves the interests of Singaporeans, so why does the gahmen allow it to persist, and even thrive?

I was, however, impressed with Shanmu's command of spoken Tamil. He's certainly much better than the utter embarrassment that was Jayakumar. Plus this guy can really think on his feet and give ready and (at least superficially) plausible answers to fairly tough questions. Certainly much more PM-material than lots of our other "Mini-Stars".

 

Just want to say regarding this is that this is the lacking of government, think he got admit in earlier that they cant foresee thousands of organisations in protecting the interest of singaporean.

 

Anyway his debate skills very good! impressed with him cos he can remember almost all questions asked

[Thaiyotakamli]

Actually what's confusing are the stats they give for example. First they tell you nobody will know what will happen in 2030 dan they throw figures like in every 2 working adults 1 is an elderly. I'm assuming this is a worst case scenario. But the way they put it is like matter of fact. It's really misleading.

Dan say FW come here to work and dan 2-4 years later they leave but you will need to sustain that large FW workforce to sustain the mess they have created to keep it going.

 

I rather not listen altogether and choose no overcrowding in sgp to be my preferred choice.

2 working adult in every one elder mean currently majority of population in age of 30s to 40s, by that time in 2030, they will be in retiring age and yet the current youth not enough to replace the number of working adult.

 

then they also say that no one will know what happen in 2030 cos "maybe" got global economic downturn which affect singapore growth badly and they wont need more people to support economic growth cos due to lack of growth in demand of business

[Thaiyotakamli]

Thanks Turboflat4 for the great summary.

 

One point raised by the auntie:

They bring in foreigners to support the aging Singaporeans.

But you have to remember that not just Singaporeans are growing old, the foreigners who come here to work will also get old 20 years later.

 

I thought that was funny but valid.

you are wrong,

those foreigners come here holding employment pass or PR, so if govt dont grant them citizenship, they will leave, they will leave before they turn old.

so can be assured that only singaporean can become old.

 

REMEMBER THEY COME HERE TO WORK AND LEAVE

[Thaiyotakamli]

I like the lady who said if sgp allows a foreign couple to settle in sgp(example), the husband bring the father mother, the wife bring her father mother, dan it does not really solve the aging population problem. What she say is right. Foreigners aren't orphans and they are not robots they grow old like us as well. It's just squeezing more ppl but not really solving the aging population issue. The aging population issue imo is like a shield to cover the bullsh!t.

think for this, govt had to introduce new measures to prevent more 'families' coming in

[Humsuplo]

you are wrong,

those foreigners come here holding employment pass or PR, so if govt dont grant them citizenship, they will leave, they will leave before they turn old.

so can be assured that only singaporean can become old.

 

REMEMBER THEY COME HERE TO WORK AND LEAVE

 

 

these foreigners come here to make money, make singaporeans life miserable and finally leave to have a better quality life elsewhere.

there are many foreigners who know that sg is not a plcae u can grow old in, hence even if offered citizenship they will not take up and choose to leave evetually.

 

 

[Wyfitms]

dun forget shamu was a top notch lawyer before joining politics. One would expect him to speak relatively well compared to his peers of union leader/ army chief/ etc

[Ghostami]

these foreigners come here to make money, make singaporeans life miserable and finally leave to have a better quality life elsewhere.

there are many foreigners who know that sg is not a plcae u can grow old in, hence even if offered citizenship they will not take up and choose to leave evetually.

 

I will do the same if I am in their shoes. What is low tax compare to the snowball medical bills that might happen to you when you are old. I rather pay higher taxes and know that once old age, my medical health is well taken care of.

[Wishcumstrue]

Unforunately I am at work now, so only manage a min of the show. Seems much better than the shows on channel 5 & 8 already.

 

the long hair girl with black t-shirt quite a looker also.

 

Can someone summerize?

 

 

Why only look at that pretty lady?

 

I had a chance to catch the debate and was kind of impressed with Shanmugam holding on his own during the show.

 

Unlike other channels when you often see a team of speakers/"experts" or whoever to share the debate, he was like on a one-man show.

 

Shanmugam literally had to think on his feet over this hot-button issue.