Tesla Model S

[Carbon82]

tax on tax on tax on tax at play

 

pay for co2 tax when using electricity at home

pay for co2 tax on co2 tax for charging car

Tax on tax is happening all the time, nothing new, e.g.

 

7% GST on top of 10% service charge

7% GST on top of $0.56 petrol tax (for RON95 and below)

...... the list goes on

 

Now, if LTA arguement that have to pay CEVS surcharge for using electricity to power an electric car is right, expect the upcoming budget or within the next 2 rounds that all electric powered personal trasport device (electric bike, scooter, hoverboard, segway, etc.) to be subjected to the same CEVS scheme (but no rebate, just tax, basing on power consumption). And then maybe those remote control car & drone will be next... ... Far stretch? Maybe not if you goes by our governemnt logic.

[Runforyourlife]

Sounds like a fantastic PR for Tesla without even need to have an office here

 

Wonder is that a smart or tupid PR move that's the more interesting part. Wonder if Elon knows about this explanaton...................

[Carbon82]

Based on past experience be careful what you wish for from the authorities. This new citizen will get the bombshell dropped by the authorities very soon and it may kill any electric cars coming here. Get ready to LLST.

Let take a step back to look at the issue. We cannot denied that electricity power vehicles are "greener" than gasoline driven one, for the fact that we have better efficency with power generation, then burning petrol or diesel. And that is why many countries has been actively pushing for the use of electricity car (and fuel cell too).

 

And that will be a "nightmare" for our government, given that billions $$$ are collected each year from vehicle & fuel taxes, and the wide adoption of electric car & personal transport device will results in losses in tax revenue. This is another fact, nothing to do with my political believe. So creative thinking is needed to fill the gap (shortfall).

 

While I fully agreed that using electricity contribute to CO2 generation, but simply slapping a surchage basing on NO legislative reference is a shame on LTA and the relevant ministries. In this internet era, news goes worldwide in blink of the eye, and reference from other part of the world can be had instantly, so the more the decsion by governement agencies has to be a sound and fool proof one. New Tesla S can get band A1 (S$30K) rebate, while used unit have to pay $15K surcharge. Sorry, the only logic behind, from what I can see, is that the ARF will be lower due to used car having lower OMV, thus something has to be done to make up for the "loss".

 

Kopi O gao please.

[Joseph22]

Calling yourself a paper warrior is already a big stretch. I think of you more as a ...paper jester.

 

 

Er...*not* that?

 

Or, for consistency, tax all households for 'emissions' relating to their power usage, over and above the already extant electricity tariffs.

 

Selective persecution by taxation is just not the done thing. The effing gahmen has been getting away with it scot free for too long. Now they're the laughing stock of the world, and I couldn't be happier.

 

EDIT: just realised I responded to a week old post, sorry, didn't notice.

Errr... Interm of ranking jester technically although no rank, got great influence one leh. Edited March 11, 2016 by Joseph22

[Watwheels]

Let take a step back to look at the issue. We cannot denied that electricity power vehicles are "greener" than gasoline driven one, for the fact that we have better efficency with power generation, then burning petrol or diesel. And that is why many countries has been actively pushing for the use of electricity car (and fuel cell too).

 

And that will be a "nightmare" for our government, given that billions $$$ are collected each year from vehicle & fuel taxes, and the wide adoption of electric car & personal transport device will results in losses in tax revenue. This is another fact, nothing to do with my political believe. So creative thinking is needed to fill the gap (shortfall).

 

While I fully agreed that using electricity contribute to CO2 generation, but simply slapping a surchage basing on NO legislative reference is a shame on LTA and the relevant ministries. In this internet era, news goes worldwide in blink of the eye, and reference from other part of the world can be had instantly, so the more the decsion by governement agencies has to be a sound and fool proof one. New Tesla S can get band A1 (S$30K) rebate, while used unit have to pay $15K surcharge. Sorry, the only logic behind, from what I can see, is that the ARF will be lower due to used car having lower OMV, thus something has to be done to make up for the "loss".

 

Kopi O gao please.

 

Logic? Haha....

 

If you recall how CatA got its 130hp cap and how ppl LLST? How many ppl gave their logical 2 cents worth of suggestion to so call tweak the COE system? In the end what happened?

 

Logic? Muhahaha....

 

No offense, can't help it.  We are not born in Singapore yesterday. You ask yourself how many things here work  can be explained by logic. No, it's mostly base on money.

[Weez911]

LTA full of shiet

 

Wa otaku, your balls very big!

[Sp4wn]

That is what the western snobs are trying to do through Kyoto Accords etc. If we had bent over and accept blindly, like you are suggesting, then who will allocate the reduced power generation available? You willing to be elected and tell all 3 and 4-rm hdb owners that their daily power consumption will be restricted?

 

During 9-5, divert all power to MNC factories?

 

Accept nuclear reactor in central catchment area with 5 km no residence zone around it?

 

soooo .. continue to make bold, unsubstantiated and ridiculous claims? 

 

how are you spouting all this crap without anything to back up what you're saying?

 

or are you pulling out this power rationing crap out of thin air, like you seem to do with whatever you've been saying in this thread?

 

absolutely nothing worse than a jealous person whose jealousy is so clear in the way he writes.

 

wish i could give you another 5 dislikes, but alas, the system wont allow me to!

[inlinesix]

Accept nuclear reactor in central catchment area with 5 km no residence zone around it?

 

Why not Gen IV nuclear reactor in offshore island?

 

[Sp4wn]

Why don't you go find out about the fast charge/regular charge current draw and amperage requirements for this 2-year old Tesla technology?

 

These were not mass produced cars with universal standard chargers or plugs. This was a small batch Musk used as proof of concept to get more investments to build the super factory for batteries and charger tech in the desert. (And LTA discovered that the first batch of batteries and charger becomes very inefficient after only 2 years or in tropical heat and humidity.)

 

Fact remains that the unit imported is for private usage and of no benefit to the singapore community. Not that a taxi company imported dozens to test long term viability. This chap wants bragging rights for power and luxury despite the Prius being 3 generations along in tech advances.

 

if you're the one who is gonna cite these examples, the burden of proof and providing evidence to substantiate your bold claims lies with you, not me. 

 

FYI, tesla is 2 year old technology. shows how much you know. i'd love to know how you know that Elon Musk only came up with a small batch when there are tens of thousands of Teslas in the world. (75k just for the model 'S' so far https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Model_S )

 

how did LTA discover the first batch of batteries and charger becomes inefficient? LTA themselves have said they have only examined ONE tesla all this while and it was their FIRST time. ( http://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/transport/electric-car-tesla-slapped-with-15000-tax-surcharge ). 

 

i can tell what kind of person you are already. you should wait outside watch boutiques and super car launches and yell about the exclusivity that those with money desire. because it seems if it was up to you, even the billionaires here should only wear casio watches and drive 1.2L nissan sunnys. 

 

come come, provide your evidence to back up what you're saying. 

[Sp4wn]

It's really the other way around: complainers here who want to catch the gahmen out on any stumble are using this LTA decision as an example of unimaginative civil servant lackeys under the control of authoritarian pappies.

 

Just count how many posters here allude to gahmen 'stupidity'. Critic easy.

 

you missed my point completely. you were trying to stir up anti-FT sentiment with your statement. that was YOU trying to politicize your statement buddy. by bringing up Singaporeans Vs FT, you are also "alluding" to things associated with government policies. or did you not understand what you posted? 

[inlinesix]

Why don't you go find out about the fast charge/regular charge current draw and amperage requirements for this 2-year old Tesla technology?

 

These were not mass produced cars with universal standard chargers or plugs. This was a small batch Musk used as proof of concept to get more investments to build the super factory for batteries and charger tech in the desert. (And LTA discovered that the first batch of batteries and charger becomes very inefficient after only 2 years or in tropical heat and humidity.)

 

Fact remains that the unit imported is for private usage and of no benefit to the singapore community. Not that a taxi company imported dozens to test long term viability. This chap wants bragging rights for power and luxury despite the Prius being 3 generations along in tech advances.

 

BMW i3 & i8 also got fast charger.  How much more Tesla gonna consume as compared to BMW I3 & I8?

 

MInd you, both BMW I3 & i8 is not mass produced car.

[Runforyourlife]

The troll here is going out of point. Try not to feed this troll.

[Sp4wn]

I merely opened our eyes to the other side of the issue: the bottom line is that it is one individual with a luxury car in private usage, adding to congestion, high current usage, and he is able to hog reserved parking lots in CBD because of loop hole. Plus recharge for free at office lot.

 

Yet the western capitalist lackeys here think he is some hero for discovering gahmen error and subjugation of beneficial tech. Tesla is but one EV company with fantastic PR, but we should hardly be locked into its tech infrastructure so soon.

 

He not hero. He is not the ceo of taxi or car rental company doing test under singapore humid and high heat conditions. He is keeping the leather interior for himself and his small family.

 

based on what you said, ANYONE who buys an electric car or hybrid falls under your sweeping statement, since they too can recharge their cars at designated lots.

 

bro, you know how to shoot your mouth off without thinking very well. so much bitterness in your statement. nothing objective about what you say. anyway, carry on with your rhetoric, seems you are hell bent in talking rubbish.

[inlinesix]

based on what you said, ANYONE who buys an electric car or hybrid falls under your sweeping statement, since they too can recharge their cars at designated lots.

 

bro, you know how to shoot your mouth off without thinking very well. so much bitterness in your statement. nothing objective about what you say. anyway, carry on with your rhetoric, seems you are hell bent in talking rubbish.

 

I already shot him 2 technical & relevant question.  He hasn't come back to me yet.  Maybe an empty can only.

[Sp4wn]

"but be wider read and historically factually accurate, please."

 

please, do the same. it seems when you cant provide an answer or evidence, you simply pretend you didn't see the reply. so many of us waiting for your witty retorts and factual answers as well. thanks.

[Icemaiden]

I am with LTA on this. The problem is, people assume electric cars are definitely more environmentally friendly from a very shallow view point. While petrol driven cars are powered directly by fuel in the engines with emission from tailpipe, electric cars no better even though no CO2 comes out from the tail pipe. The pollution happens earlier at the power plant where fuel and hydrocarbons are burned to generate the electricity (& pollute environment) which is used to power the car. In fact, I always believe electric cars are probably less efficient in the use of scarce energy sources because energy is lost in the inefficient conversion process (first power grid convert to electricity before the car is powered). Normal cars are taxed heavily on the onset and on a usage basis (every time we pump petrol at the petrol station). Electric cars should have no exception. In the case of the imported Tesla, it was tested to use 444 Wh/km of energy - it should be taxed accordingly based on its carbon footprint - no exception.

 

Electric cars users have to realise - their cars are not as environmentally friendly as they think. in fact, recent studies have shown that they could be causing more harm to the environment that a normal gasoline car. 

 

 

I think the whole saga meant to highlight just 2 things:

 

1) Lack of clarity on determining vehicle tax (CEVS) and the method used to derive at the rebate / surcharge

2) Role and responsibility between LTA, EMA and maybe other agencies not properly defined

 

In all fairness, as car owner myself, I would expect a full electric car (not a hybrid or those with range extender) with CO2 emission rating of 0g/Km to be entitled to the max. CEVS rebate of $30K (barring the rule that min $5K ARF is payable), based on what published on LTA website. BTW, I have look for everything on that page with great details, but it does not mentioned anything about correlating power consumption to CO2 rating.

 

And under Tax Structure for Cars (LTA), again, nothing special mentioned under the eletric car section (in fact is stated No Applicable for electric car). All said, I still cannot figure out why EMA is in the loop. Maybe I should do some readup at ACG website...

 

Edited March 11, 2016 by Icemaiden

[Carbon82]

I am with LTA on this. The problem is, people assume electric cars are definitely more environmentally friendly from a very shallow view point. While petrol driven cars are powered directly by fuel in the engines with emission from tailpipe, electric cars no better even though no CO2 comes out from the tail pipe. The pollution happens earlier at the power grid where fuel and hydrocarbons are burned to generate the electricity (& pollute environment) which is used to power the car. In fact, I always believe electric cars are probably less efficient in the use of scare energy sources because energy is lost in the inefficient conversion process (first power grid convert to electricity before the car is powered). Normal cars are taxed heavily on the onset and on s usage basis (every time we pump petrol at the petrol station). Electric cars should have no exception. In the case of the imported Tesla, it was tested to use 444 Wh/km of energy - it should be taxed accordingly based on its carbon footprint - no exception.

 

Electric cars users have to realise - their cars are not as environmentally friendly as they think. in fact, it could be worse with higher carbon emission than a normal car.

Sorry but I think you missed my point completely. No doubt that CO2 is produced during generation of electricity, and if you will like to add, the environmental impact for production, use and disposal of battery pack, etc. BUT as I have mentioned in my earlier post, where are all these consideration been documented in our legal registry?

 

Imagine you buy a bowl of fishball noodle, and out of the blue, you realised that you have to pay extra for carbon related tax (akain to CEVS surcharge), simply because the stall owner uses a induction cooker to cook the noodle, wouldn't you have a rough shock too?

[Mockngbrd]

You don't see how brilliantly greedy this chap is? While you circle around and complain, he zips into a reserved lot and powers up for free.

 

You DO realize green lots in buildings grant developers additional benefits from the Gahmen right? and the electricity to charge is NOT free. They have ID cards (tagged to the car owner) which need to be tapped to the chargers. Bill will go straight to the car owner. 

 

 

 

It means that Tesla's battery charge holding efficiency is same same. No breakthroughs yet.

 

Think of your laptops and handphones. Such small charge required and probability of battery KO within 2 years is high.

 

So lousy and no breakthroughs that Tesla and BMW both offer 8 year warranties on the battery and BMWs even provide up to a 10 year warranty on the battery. Battery warranty means, should the battery pack fall below 70 percent efficiency, they will be replaced. My phone n laptop batts last longer than 2 years also. Your laptop and handphone battery must be lousy. 

Edited March 11, 2016 by Mockngbrd