HongKong Protest (riot)!

[Bystander50]

The illegal hawkers were merely the catalyst to start the spark. Unfortunately, the HK enforcement units walked right into a booby trap nicely laid for them. Thereafter, the real rioters magically appeared on the streets to do their job. It was intriguing to observe all these self-proclaimed "illegal hawkers" fighting on the street are all so young and able-bodied. It's not hard to guess which type of organisations in HK have the capabilities to mobilize huge number of young people (who have nothing to lose) to create chaos. And obviously, these organisations do not provide free service like this unless they are handsomely paid. And who are the parties who would go through all these effort and expenses to strike another blow to destabilize HK/China, and symbolically on CNY no less?

 

Did I hear somebody say CONSPIRACY?!?!

 

The illegal hawkers could also be youngsters hoping to make a fast buck during the festive seasons.

 

Look at the festive stalls in Chinatown, there are also youngsters selling sweets and sparklers.

 

I've also seen youngsters selling party popping kits during xmas and new year period.

 

Roadside stalls need not be operated by old people.

[Jman888]

The illegal hawkers could also be youngsters hoping to make a fast buck during the festive seasons.

 

Look at the festive stalls in Chinatown, there are also youngsters selling sweets and sparklers.

 

I've also seen youngsters selling party popping kits during xmas and new year period.

 

Roadside stalls need not be operated by old people.

those people who involved in the riot claimed that they are not the hawker but trying to fight for their right.

[Wishcumstrue]

Either my writing skills are damn poor or your comprehension skills suck.

 

You stated that festivals are not a good excuse to break the law (for selling fishballs) and I stated that this is the case in Singapore for illegal parking during festivals. Instead of addressing my point head on, you start to bring up health problems from selling fish balls and then say that I am condoning rioting? 

 

Please learn to read leh.

 

Both your writing and comprehesion skills suck. And yes that is in plural.

 

Here's why:

 

This is where one has be clear on the rule of Law - Does enforcing a known law during an important festive season should be any different from any other day ?

 

If it is, then HK (or Singapore) will end up like any "Truly Asia" entity - where laws can be bend, broken and sold without punishment.

 

In the above, clearly I put the law enforcement in the context of the general public safety. No reference to any rule or regulations that can cause misunderstanding invovling individual pratices of faith or tradition is inferred.

 

Yet, you conveniently include this aspect without clearly explaining what you meant  by "already so" nor cited any example of law had been broken by activities of "mosque on Friday, Chinese or Indian temple on their respective festivals and churches during X'mas".

 

so I further probe you:

 

Do those places of worship you mentioned conduct activities which caused harm to the public's health ?

 

Careful here.

 

 

 

 

 

 

To which you brush my reply off saying "What's there to be careful?" and then using illegal parking as a comparison to the potential health risk post illegal street hawker.

Don't you have a sense of perspectives before making such comparison ?

 

How is using parking problem around places of worship or illegal parkings during festives season be used as a counter argument against an activity that post basic health risk to everyone else on a daily basis ?

 

You fail to eloborate on that nor did you expressively question the violence used in the latest HK saga. That lead me the the next plausible reason is you SUPPORT such act simply because it is an act of defiance against the authority...using "illegal parking" as a lame example.

 

Correct me if I had read beyond those few lines you had in your response...

[Vid]

Both your writing and comprehesion skills suck. And yes that is in plural.

 

Here's why:

 

 

In the above, clearly I put the law enforcement in the context of the general public safety. No reference to any rule or regulations that can cause misunderstanding invovling individual pratices of faith or tradition is inferred.

 

Yet, you conveniently include this aspect without clearly explaining what you meant  by "already so" nor cited any example of law had been broken by activities of "mosque on Friday, Chinese or Indian temple on their respective festivals and churches during X'mas".

 

so I further probe you:

 

 

 

 

 

 

To which you brush my reply off saying "What's there to be careful?" and then using illegal parking as a comparison to the potential health risk post illegal street hawker.

Don't you have a sense of perspectives before making such comparison ?

 

How is using parking problem around places of worship or illegal parkings during festives season be used as a counter argument against an activity that post basic health risk to everyone else on a daily basis ?

 

You fail to eloborate on that nor did you expressively question the violence used in the latest HK saga. That lead me the the next plausible reason is you SUPPORT such act simply because it is an act of defiance against the authority...using "illegal parking" as a lame example.

 

Correct me if I had read beyond those few lines you had in your response...

 

Bro, you by any chance a lawyer? I don't think there is a need to go back threads to pick fish bones.

 

You made your point and your stand. I think by now, everybody can see you are pro-china. You have to be in the situation to know what it feels like to be a hongkonger. It is easy to say people of Hong Kong are anal about China rule. But the truth is, daily lives are affected by mainland Chinese. That was never the case when the British were there.

 

I am not condoning what those rioters did. Every sane person in Hong Kong condemned their actions. It was a total disregard to peace in the territory.

[Wishcumstrue]

I like to believe I'm a libertarian... but I welcome order and discipline more. Having said that... while ideals are good, one must be flexible in thinking and in reasoning. Like Lord Byron said;

 

"Those who will not reason, are bigots....... those who dare not, are slaves."

 

 One shouldn't be slaves to their ideals... I hope the govt. and the young and restless can see reason and merits in each of their stances.

 

But irrespective of that... it is really really really shameful for the youngsters to harass and frighten a little child like that. 

 

LKY once put it is okay to be an idealist in your youth. But ultimately, the real world will come to you and you need to make necesary adjustment.

 

Problem is do these young HKer involved in those shameful act are aware of the embarrassment and destress they have caused ?

 

Good thing is after the harrement was broadcast on HK media, the public responded and event issue apology to mother and daughter.

 

[Wishcumstrue]

Bro, you by any chance a lawyer? I don't think there is a need to go back threads to pick fish bones.

 

You made your point and your stand. I think by now, everybody can see you are pro-china. You have to be in the situation to know what it feels like to be a hongkonger. It is easy to say people of Hong Kong are anal about China rule. But the truth is, daily lives are affected by mainland Chinese. That was never the case when the British were there.

 

I am not condoning what those rioters did. Every sane person in Hong Kong condemned their actions. It was a total disregard to peace in the territory.

 

I don't think one needs to be a lawyer or be in legal practice to have some common sense and balanced approach to a diversive subject with civility. So far from nitpicking over small issues or be allowed to be labeled as "pro China", I will simply point out what my responders had missed in my approach and principle behind my argument.

 

Occasonally, it is unavoidable someone's pride or prejudice will be hurt in the process, but that is not my intention.

Edited February 10, 2016 by Wishcumstrue

[Thaiyotakamli]

Bro, you by any chance a lawyer? I don't think there is a need to go back threads to pick fish bones.

 

You made your point and your stand. I think by now, everybody can see you are pro-china. You have to be in the situation to know what it feels like to be a hongkonger. It is easy to say people of Hong Kong are anal about China rule. But the truth is, daily lives are affected by mainland Chinese. That was never the case when the British were there.

 

I am not condoning what those rioters did. Every sane person in Hong Kong condemned their actions. It was a total disregard to peace in the territory.

I agree with what u said but for hkers part, they earn their income mainly from china yet they don't welcome them. Its like want their money but don't want them to come or to a certain extent of control.

 

 

As i said earlier, they prospered during british colony because they plays an important role to connect china and the rest of the world. That role is vanishing now and they don't have the competitive advantage anymore. Bringing the british back would not improve the condition

[ins1dious]

Both your writing and comprehesion skills suck. And yes that is in plural.

 

Here's why:

 

 

In the above, clearly I put the law enforcement in the context of the general public safety. No reference to any rule or regulations that can cause misunderstanding invovling individual pratices of faith or tradition is inferred.

 

Yet, you conveniently include this aspect without clearly explaining what you meant  by "already so" nor cited any example of law had been broken by activities of "mosque on Friday, Chinese or Indian temple on their respective festivals and churches during X'mas".

 

so I further probe you:

 

 

 

 

 

 

To which you brush my reply off saying "What's there to be careful?" and then using illegal parking as a comparison to the potential health risk post illegal street hawker.

Don't you have a sense of perspectives before making such comparison ?

 

How is using parking problem around places of worship or illegal parkings during festives season be used as a counter argument against an activity that post basic health risk to everyone else on a daily basis ?

 

You fail to eloborate on that nor did you expressively question the violence used in the latest HK saga. That lead me the the next plausible reason is you SUPPORT such act simply because it is an act of defiance against the authority...using "illegal parking" as a lame example.

 

Correct me if I had read beyond those few lines you had in your response...

 

You're reading too much into what @Kusje wrote. He was specifically responding to your suggestion that lack of enforcement of a known law in HK or SG will end up with the countries being "truly Asia" where laws are bent, broken, etc...

 

In that context, he's written an example where illegal parking is a known problem but one that the authorities within reason, don't enforce strictly... such that laws are being bent, broken already... In no way was his post suggesting that illegal parking is a bigger/lesser "health" hazard.... and his riposte about "what's there to be careful?" is a direct reply to you asking him to be careful... why the heck should he be?

 

This reminds me of the short story "All About A Dog" by AG Gardiner... It's very simplistic to read now... but it is still profound... Here's an excerpt from it;

 

 

"I've got my rules," said the conductor to me when I was the last passenger left behind. He had won his victory, but felt that he would like to justify himself to somebody.

 

"Rules," I said, "are necessary things, but there are rules and rules. Some are hard and fast rules, like the rule of the road, which cannot be broken without danger to life and limb. But some are only rules for your guidance, which you can apply or wink at, as common sense dictates—like that rule about the dogs. They are not a whip put in your hand to scourge your passengers with, but an authority for an emergency. They are meant to be observed in the spirit, not in the letter—for the comfort and not the discomfort of the passengers. You have kept the rule and broken its spirit. You want to mix your rules with a little goodwill and good temper."

 

Me thinks the HK authorities didn't apply enough discretion when enforcing the rules there... and there have been some elements who have taken advantage of that. None of them come out looking good imho...

[Wishcumstrue]

You're reading too much into what @Kusje wrote. He was specifically responding to your suggestion that lack of enforcement of a known law in HK or SG will end up with the countries being "truly Asia" where laws are bent, broken, etc...

 

In that context, he's written an example where illegal parking is a known problem but one that the authorities within reason, don't enforce strictly... such that laws are being bent, broken already... In no way was his post suggesting that illegal parking is a bigger/lesser "health" hazard.... and his riposte about "what's there to be careful?" is a direct reply to you asking him to be careful... why the heck should he be?

 

This reminds me of the short story "All About A Dog" by AG Gardiner... It's very simplistic to read now... but it is still profound... Here's an excerpt from it;

 

 

I supposed you had missed the complain against illegal parking involving worshippers on Fridays and Sundays ? If that's okay with you, then I am not going to argue with that.

 

That's why I mentioned "be careful". A common-sense rule that your little dog story has shared.

 

 

Me thinks the HK authorities didn't apply enough discretion when enforcing the rules there... and there have been some elements who have taken advantage of that. None of them come out looking good imho...

Have you seen video clips of the attacks on the police officers?

And how does one define "enough discretion" in enforcmenment when situation became fluid over the several hours, across seperate blocks of street, with fires setoff and bricks being lobbed - all because of trying to rein in illegal street hawkers ?

 

I though many already agree the accident has NOTHING to do with hawkers themselves but rioters out to take advantage.

 

PS: I added this clip again to put this discussion in a better perspective what had gone wrong at Mongkok.

 

Rules are there, Rules are being broken and Rules are openly challenged with violence.

 

Even canine understand who's the boss and respect authority.

 

But not human - the result - 无法无天, 天下大乱

 

Edited February 10, 2016 by Wishcumstrue

[Vid]

I agree with what u said but for hkers part, they earn their income mainly from china yet they don't welcome them. Its like want their money but don't want them to come or to a certain extent of control.

 

 

As i said earlier, they prospered during british colony because they plays an important role to connect china and the rest of the world. That role is vanishing now and they don't have the competitive advantage anymore. Bringing the british back would not improve the condition

 

I think the part where the people want their money but not them coming is an overstatement. It is mainly the retailers who are benefiting from the mainlanders' spendings. Normal residents do not benefit much.

 

Economy in Hong Kong has been very naive to think they can depend only on retail sales from China to survive. There is a shopping mall in Mong Kok that underwent extensive renovation for years just to cater to the mainlanders to come and spend. The ground floor is now occupied with many gold smith shops. Now, the sales people inside mainly swat flies. That is how the wind has changed.

 

I had first hand experience on how those retailers rather serve the mainlanders than locals because the former buy in bulk for everything. They ignore people who buy less which irked many many people. Now, it is the locals who are boycotting those retailers. Who suffer? Retailers themselves for being so shortsighted.

 

This is also where the Hong Kong govt is so useless. Hong Kong is in so many ways similar to Singapore. Why then could Singapore prosper where Hong Kong could not? Without innovation, the economy becomes stale. If Hong Kong fails, she only has the greedy businessmen and incompetent govt to blame.

 

From another angle, it is also China's propaganda for creating such a scenario. They flooded Hong Kong with their people in the hope that Hong Kongers will slowly integrate with them and become part of China. It failed miserably with Hong Kongers resenting them for invading their space and resources. Property prices escalating to new heights all the time because the Chinese are buying and buying. Leaving ordinary residents with no means to housing.

 

For China to crumple Hong Kong is as easy as killing a mosquito. Sadly, there is nothing much residents can do but to accept their fate. It would not be long before China swallows up Hong Kong.

[ins1dious]

I supposed you had missed the complain against illegal parking involving worshippers on Fridays and Sundays ? If that's okay with you, then I am not going to argue with that.

 

That's why I mentioned "be careful". A common-sense rule that your little dog story has shared.

 

 

Have you seen video clips of the attacks on the police officers?

And how does one define "enough discretion" in enforcmenment when situation became fluid over the several hours, across seperate blocks of street, with fires setoff and bricks being lobbed - all because of trying to rein in illegal street hawkers ?

 

I though many already agree the accident has NOTHING to do with hawkers themselves but rioters out to take advantage.

Yes. I did note that his post referred to illegal parkings during Friday prayers, Sunday mass etc.... and his post wasn't a complaint. It was merely an observation.

 

Besides... How can be one be offended about something true? It does happen... and our TP have enough sense to know what is blatant and hazardous parking. I've seen volunteers from mosques and churches directing their worshippers to a safe spot to double park (still illegal mind you) or to a car park.

 

Why just last week, I doubled parked outside Al-Mukminin mosque in Jurong East as I was late already for Friday prayers. There was a CISCO officer there who waved me to the mosque when I stopped there. He knew I was late as well.

 

Now if I'd taken my own sweet time inside after the prayers were done... I don't have a shred of doubt this same officer would have issued a fine. But as it happened... I ran out almost immediately after prayers and moved my big ass car.

 

Do I do this all the time? Nope... that was the first time in probably 2+ years. But do you think he knows that I always park in a lot? Surely not... he used his discretion anyway.

 

The second part of your post about my suggesting discretion... you misunderstand... I didn't refer to the videos of the students beating up the officers. No one can condone that and if I was the operational head there... I would have suggested a harder response to the hooligans.

 

The discretion I suggested was about the illegal hawkers and how they were not allowed to sell. The authorities should have anticipated such sales... Should have had a mechanism to check for hygiene, health and safety. Should have engaged them beforehand itself. It's not like LNY comes suddenly. That's their failing... compounded more by their blanket ban.

 

Ok... it's damn hard typing on a little smartphone keyboard. I'm done here...

Edited February 10, 2016 by ins1dious

[Nolicense]

"WOT removed"

 

Ok... it's damn hard typing on a little smartphone keyboard. I'm done here...

 

LOL... you really typed that WOT with that smart phone? must be a big screen..

Salute!

Salute your patience and sharp eyes and thumbs!

[Wishcumstrue]

Yes. I did note that his post referred to illegal parkings during Friday prayers, Sunday mass etc.... and his post wasn't a complaint. It was merely an observation.

 

Besides... How can be one be offended about something true? It does happen... and our TP have enough sense to know what is blatant and hazardous parking. I've seen volunteers from mosques and churches directing their worshippers to a safe spot to double park (still illegal mind you) or to a car park.

 

Why just last week, I doubled parked outside Al-Mukminin mosque in Jurong East as I was late already for Friday prayers. There was a CISCO officer there who waved me to the mosque when I stopped there. He knew I was late as well.

 

Now if I'd taken my own sweet time inside after the prayers were done... I don't have a shred of doubt this same officer would have issued a fine. But as it happened... I ran out almost immediately after prayers and moved my big ass car.

 

Do I do this all the time? Nope... that was the first time in probably 2+ years. But do you think he knows that I always park in a lot? Surely not... he used his discretion anyway.

 

 

 

Complaint, observation..whatever. Regardless, a comparison has been made and your experience nicely explains it all - that enforcers do practice some discetion, especially on special occasions while at the same time not falling into that "Truly Asia" trap.  But how do we know that HK police fail in this aspect on the eve of CNY ? Was there any difference from past years of SOP ?  Or did they fail to anticipate that there other elements will be involved ?

 

Looking at how this riot is coined as  "Fishball Revolution" is already quite telling - a different Rule now applies - perhaps that is where ISA comes in handy.

 

 

The second part of your post about my suggesting discretion... you misunderstand... I didn't refer to the videos of the students beating up the officers. No one can condone that and if I was the operational head there... I would have suggested a harder response to the hooligans.

 

The discretion I suggested was about the illegal hawkers and how they were not allowed to sell. The authorities should have anticipated such sales... Should have had a mechanism to check for hygiene, health and safety. Should have engaged them beforehand itself. It's not like LNY comes suddenly. That's their failing... compounded more by their blanket ban.

 

Ok... it's damn hard typing on a little smartphone keyboard. I'm done here...

 

HK authorities had attempted manage this problem for years and having a run-in with the hawkers ain't news, be it before or post 1997.  In fact, I shared this fact with Davidtch earlier:

http://www.mycarforum.com/topic/2696156-hongkong-protest-riot/page-60?do=findComment&comment=5724007

 

The only glaring failure on the HK police is not anticipating this year routine operation to be used by radicals in HK.  Just a few hours ago, one activist from Occupy Central protest was arrested at the airport as he was about to depart to Taiwan..

 

As you can see, a different set of rules and police "discretion" is now at play and this has nothing to do with illegal street hawking.

 

This will be an interesting year for HK and no one's gonna Monkey around.

 

Edited February 10, 2016 by Wishcumstrue

[Bacteria83]

Every race or countries also have bad people. Lets have a bigger open heart get to know them before we judge.

 

 

 

I dont anti anyone or different races, only dislike bad people.

[Thaiyotakamli]

I think the part where the people want their money but not them coming is an overstatement. It is mainly the retailers who are benefiting from the mainlanders' spendings. Normal residents do not benefit much.

 

Economy in Hong Kong has been very naive to think they can depend only on retail sales from China to survive. There is a shopping mall in Mong Kok that underwent extensive renovation for years just to cater to the mainlanders to come and spend. The ground floor is now occupied with many gold smith shops. Now, the sales people inside mainly swat flies. That is how the wind has changed.

 

I had first hand experience on how those retailers rather serve the mainlanders than locals because the former buy in bulk for everything. They ignore people who buy less which irked many many people. Now, it is the locals who are boycotting those retailers. Who suffer? Retailers themselves for being so shortsighted.

 

This is also where the Hong Kong govt is so useless. Hong Kong is in so many ways similar to Singapore. Why then could Singapore prosper where Hong Kong could not? Without innovation, the economy becomes stale. If Hong Kong fails, she only has the greedy businessmen and incompetent govt to blame.

 

From another angle, it is also China's propaganda for creating such a scenario. They flooded Hong Kong with their people in the hope that Hong Kongers will slowly integrate with them and become part of China. It failed miserably with Hong Kongers resenting them for invading their space and resources. Property prices escalating to new heights all the time because the Chinese are buying and buying. Leaving ordinary residents with no means to housing.

 

For China to crumple Hong Kong is as easy as killing a mosquito. Sadly, there is nothing much residents can do but to accept their fate. It would not be long before China swallows up Hong Kong.

I think chinese doesnt only flood to hk

 

 

Do check out seoul, tokyo, bkk and taipei, these cities also flooded by tiong tourists. I don't think thats a scenario that chinese government trying to create. regarding property price, taipei and sg also face the same issue and it was tiong that partially liable for pushing up the price. Sg is lucky that we have affordable housing scheme unlike taipei which end up change of ruling party. HK has no choice but to suck thumb since they cant do anything about their gahmen.

 

 

 

HK no longer prosper due to success of shenzhen and guangzhou that attracts huge FDI resulting more business go there instead of HK. Unlike SG that has no competent neighbour, HK face stiff competition for the same market. As result, hk economy doesnt improve and only the richs and retailers benefit from china's tourists.

 

As for SG, we do have alot innovation but our future will also remains questionable as the opening up of Kra canal will affect shipping business here which is one of the main income of sg, and growing cities like KL and BKK as hub will make sg even less attractive.

 

 

 

 

I dunno why china would ever want to take over hk so soon. Let the status remain the same, respect one country two system. Swallowing up hk doesnt benefit china as hk is a small part of china and swallowing up hk will create more trouble such as riots and loss of existing FDI..

[Thaiyotakamli]

 

 

 

 

Meanwhile in singapore, hung xin and tung xin still vying for sentosa territory lol

 

[inlinesix]

I think chinese doesnt only flood to hk

 

 

Do check out seoul, tokyo, bkk and taipei, these cities also flooded by tiong tourists. I don't think thats a scenario that chinese government trying to create. regarding property price, taipei and sg also face the same issue and it was tiong that partially liable for pushing up the price. Sg is lucky that we have affordable housing scheme unlike taipei which end up change of ruling party. HK has no choice but to suck thumb since they cant do anything about their gahmen.

 

 

 

HK no longer prosper due to success of shenzhen and guangzhou that attracts huge FDI resulting more business go there instead of HK. Unlike SG that has no competent neighbour, HK face stiff competition for the same market. As result, hk economy doesnt improve and only the richs and retailers benefit from china's tourists.

 

As for SG, we do have alot innovation but our future will also remains questionable as the opening up of Kra canal will affect shipping business here which is one of the main income of sg, and growing cities like KL and BKK as hub will make sg even less attractive.

 

 

 

 

I dunno why china would ever want to take over hk so soon. Let the status remain the same, respect one country two system. Swallowing up hk doesnt benefit china as hk is a small part of china and swallowing up hk will create more trouble such as riots and loss of existing FDI..

 

It is a matter of face.

 

Same like Taiwan.

 

 

This is a good article on Hong Kong Hawker

Closing time How Hong Kong’s hawkers face a struggle to survive

http://multimedia.scmp.com/hawkers/

 

[Weez911]

Bro @Wishcumstrue and @Ins1dious, I salute both of you for your excellent command of Her Majesty's language. 

 

There is hope for this country after all