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Are China car manufacturers (almost) catching up?


Mockngbrd
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Things change fast. Seeing China when I first went there in 2005, compared with what I heard from my Dad when he went in the 90s, and seeing China change from 2005 to present, things move fast. If there is monetary incentive, they will get off their arse. And with their size, just like the US, as long as a small % get off their arse, it is enough.

 

In 60 years Meiji Japan went from post-medieval technology to building i-400, Shokaku and Yamato.

 

I don’t think so. The Chinese are faced with different challenges compared to the Japanese.

Culturally, the Japanese are a more determined race to prove their mettle. The strength to overcome adversities stemmed from their desire to move out of their defeat and their epiphany of the monarch’s mortality who was long perceived as a divine being. They moved out of a North Korean styled brainwashing doctrine to a liberated nation yearning for life after decades of savagery. The presence of a ready made faction who wanted change and support from the Allied forces also helped to elevate the Japanese identity in the automotive world. They were able to design world leading QMS in the automotive sector used globally including the Germans and Chinese today. There is also a very strong sense of national pride despite their willingness to copy, learn and then innovate, thus allowed them to become one of the world leaders in automotive engineering.

 

The Chinese on the other hand is a nation riddled by decadence. Corruption has long entrenched itself into Chinese culture. The incentives you spoke about will never happen until China rid itself of the great income disparity, the corrupted ‘hongbao’ culture, the I know who and I’m who’s who culture. The Chinese are now another pan of scattered solidarity. Talented people who really want to bring up the Chinese brand got their wings bonded by corruption as they do not know the right people, or are unwilling/unable to pay the right people to help them scale the ladder. Their quality is impaired by the Chinese culture of being unclear in their definition. They are unable by vast majority to define black and white. Many things are kept in the grey zone which is a taboo in engineering.

 

For example, DIN7168,

Tolerance class T for dimensions >30mm to 120mm, tolerance = 0.12mm

In other words, 90mm ±0.12mm = required dimension 89.88mm ~90.12mm is acceptable.

However, in the Chinese culture, it is not surprising to see them letting things like 91mm pass through if the other dimensions are within specs or if the cost involved in scrapping is too high or too complicated, and this happens at the management level, not the operator’s level. Sometimes, they don’t even check it but they will tell you that they checked it. In the Japanese managed plant. The Japanese introduces programs and processes to do their best to eliminate the possibilities of malpractices. The Germans’ culture of being uncorrupted will enhance the possibilities of a black and white definition. They will simply reject the part if it falls out of their tolerance.

 

This is a culture the Chinese will have to overcome and has a huge problem to overcome.

 

So judging from the situation now, how long do you think they will take to create a reputable and sought after Chinese brand?

 

These are the opinions I got from my friend who deals with the Japanese and Chinese automotive industry.

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I don’t think so. The Chinese are faced with different challenges compared to the Japanese.

Culturally, the Japanese are a more determined race to prove their mettle. The strength to overcome adversities stemmed from their desire to move out of their defeat and their epiphany of the monarch’s mortality who was long perceived as a divine being. They moved out of a North Korean styled brainwashing doctrine to a liberated nation yearning for life after decades of savagery. The presence of a ready made faction who wanted change and support from the Allied forces also helped to elevate the Japanese identity in the automotive world. They were able to design world leading QMS in the automotive sector used globally including the Germans and Chinese today. There is also a very strong sense of national pride despite their willingness to copy, learn and then innovate, thus allowed them to become one of the world leaders in automotive engineering.

 

The Chinese on the other hand is a nation riddled by decadence. Corruption has long entrenched itself into Chinese culture. The incentives you spoke about will never happen until China rid itself of the great income disparity, the corrupted ‘hongbao’ culture, the I know who and I’m who’s who culture. The Chinese are now another pan of scattered solidarity. Talented people who really want to bring up the Chinese brand got their wings bonded by corruption as they do not know the right people, or are unwilling/unable to pay the right people to help them scale the ladder. Their quality is impaired by the Chinese culture of being unclear in their definition. They are unable by vast majority to define black and white. Many things are kept in the grey zone which is a taboo in engineering.

 

We shall see. But in my example was using the pre-WW2 Dai Nihon Teikoku, where in your words, they were still under the 'NK styled brainwashing doctrine' and the perception of a God King. Under those conditions, they worked from near medieval levels of tech to 1st World competing levels very fast.

 

In the modern world, 20-40 years is a long time. We shall see.

 

On a personal note, I also hope they don't catch up so fast. Otherwise people like me will lose out on the competitive edge.

Edited by Ake109
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We shall see. But in my example was using the pre-WW2 Dai Nihon Teikoku, where in your words, they were still under the 'NK styled brainwashing doctrine' and the perception of a God King. Under those conditions, they worked from near medieval levels of tech to 1st World competing levels very fast.

 

In the modern world, 20-40 years is a long time. We shall see.

 

On a personal note, I also hope they don't catch up so fast. Otherwise people like me will lose out on the competitive edge.

 

pre-WW2 Dai Nihon Teikoku = pre WW2 Great japanese monarchy empire

Their fallcy was proven at the defeat of the japanese empire. It was later replaced with an unofficial American colonisation. The Americans contributed to the Japanese efforts to get back on their feet. And being a nation that is eager to get away from the stigma of the war, the japanese were determined to become something else. This is stark contradiction from the chinese. Being 'victors' of the war and going through the cultural revolution, the corrupted culture... they have more to overcome to be able to become a sought after export nation unlike the Germans and Japanese.

 

Like you said, 40 years is a long time. The Chinese broke free from the war about 70 years ago, ended cultural revolution close to 40 years ago, they have moved far from that... but to be at the japanese/german level of brand success... Given the Chinese resources and time frame, Japan and germany have already achieved and are cruising on their success already. But China is still struggling with fundamental problems like corruption and social problems. Their economic success is limited to only certain stratum of their class conscious society.

 

Let's see and hope the best for them.

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Came across a set of Shanghai car market data recently. Was surprised to see many Chinese makes amongst the top 5 sales. Didn't feel like many Chinese supports their home brand amongst my own friends, but the data shows otherwise.

 

Their monthly sales volume for one city is higher than Singapore annual sales volumes liao. So much volume, they should be able to gain a lot of experience and capital to improve quickly.

 

 

The elites in china may go for qualify products when buying their cars, but the vast majority of men in the streets are quite contended with local brands, i guess.

 

When car makers in china are dealing with volume productions, they may learn something and improve along the way, or they may be too busy counting money in selling tens of thousands mediocre cars and do little to improve their products, just contended with making money.

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The elites in china may go for qualify products when buying their cars, but the vast majority of men in the streets are quite contended with local brands, i guess.

 

When car makers in china are dealing with volume productions, they may learn something and improve along the way, or they may be too busy counting money in selling tens of thousands mediocre cars and do little to improve their products, just contended with making money.

 

Local brands are more popular with a certain stratum of the society and the imported brands with another.

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Local brands are more popular with a certain stratum of the society and the imported brands with another.

 

I think so too and heard many highend imported cars sell like hot cakes (paid in full cash) in China and the buyers are getting the full attention from these western car makers. Whether or not such buyers have the capacity to appreciate these cars as the designers have intended is not very certain. China market has become a key market for these highend cars.

 

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I dont think so. The Chinese are faced with different challenges compared to the Japanese.

Culturally, the Japanese are a more determined race to prove their mettle. The strength to overcome adversities stemmed from their desire to move out of their defeat and their epiphany of the monarchs mortality who was long perceived as a divine being. They moved out of a North Korean styled brainwashing doctrine to a liberated nation yearning for life after decades of savagery. The presence of a ready made faction who wanted change and support from the Allied forces also helped to elevate the Japanese identity in the automotive world. They were able to design world leading QMS in the automotive sector used globally including the Germans and Chinese today. There is also a very strong sense of national pride despite their willingness to copy, learn and then innovate, thus allowed them to become one of the world leaders in automotive engineering.

 

The Chinese on the other hand is a nation riddled by decadence. Corruption has long entrenched itself into Chinese culture. The incentives you spoke about will never happen until China rid itself of the great income disparity, the corrupted hongbao culture, the I know who and Im whos who culture. The Chinese are now another pan of scattered solidarity. Talented people who really want to bring up the Chinese brand got their wings bonded by corruption as they do not know the right people, or are unwilling/unable to pay the right people to help them scale the ladder. Their quality is impaired by the Chinese culture of being unclear in their definition. They are unable by vast majority to define black and white. Many things are kept in the grey zone which is a taboo in engineering.

 

For example, DIN7168,

Tolerance class T for dimensions >30mm to 120mm, tolerance = 0.12mm

In other words, 90mm ±0.12mm = required dimension 89.88mm ~90.12mm is acceptable.

However, in the Chinese culture, it is not surprising to see them letting things like 91mm pass through if the other dimensions are within specs or if the cost involved in scrapping is too high or too complicated, and this happens at the management level, not the operators level. Sometimes, they dont even check it but they will tell you that they checked it. In the Japanese managed plant. The Japanese introduces programs and processes to do their best to eliminate the possibilities of malpractices. The Germans culture of being uncorrupted will enhance the possibilities of a black and white definition. They will simply reject the part if it falls out of their tolerance.

 

This is a culture the Chinese will have to overcome and has a huge problem to overcome.

 

So judging from the situation now, how long do you think they will take to create a reputable and sought after Chinese brand?

 

These are the opinions I got from my friend who deals with the Japanese and Chinese automotive industry.

Excellent post.

 

I think the root cause is the civil war in China from 1949.

The ruling class/elites/educated individuals....were lost. From our experience, you need people to set up a system. The system is what allows growth, improvement and betterment of life in general. China, because of the legacy from the death of the ManChurian dynasty...it did not die cleanly but in pieces. Yuan Shikai was a Qing official then republic then vacillate back to a dynasty. The cultural damage/legacy from before leads and feed into the current issue of China cars. The hong bao culture is everywhere lah, just not so very evident. Japanese have a very discreet hong bao culture. This we know.

It is just the China does not have a system that is logical with modern day growth. The CCP is doing the best to provide, given the historical burden it is shouldering. China could very well fragment, hence the Tiananmen incident. The CCP Bo bian ...China is not ready to grow as a democracy, even now more than 20 years. The red guards were a concept that could not work out properly, instead showed what change, uncontrolled as it were will lead to.

Chinese cars are a no no for me as yet. I like to look at them and see if they improve or not but still very cannot make it.

Japan had a good system from the imperial days. The Koreans had a good system with American help post conflict...Yankees had a vested interest in a stable locale versus China and Russia.

 

Back to us, I am sure that a Singaporean car company is very doable, but negotiating the on site difficulties may kill us, unless say the PRC government come in and back us 100percent, unlike the Suzhou joke.

 

The PRC and ROC like Singapore because Captain Harry and cohort proved that Chinese can a coherent and logical system which provides for a good family and life, as well as a good death. The incredible thing is that it proves that Chinese can collaborate with other cultures. This is a very strong stimulant.

 

The Chinese here left the historical burden, we were at a cultural buffet as it were.

 

So I vote for the Singaporean car while remarking on the historical defects of the Chinese car.

 

It is the system administrator that can slowly effect change. Such as the increasing price for Coe for motorcycle, also known as suicide machines or organ donor makers.

 

Cheers for good reading!

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Excellent post.

 

I think the root cause is the civil war in China from 1949.

The ruling class/elites/educated individuals....were lost. From our experience, you need people to set up a system. The system is what allows growth, improvement and betterment of life in general. China, because of the legacy from the death of the ManChurian dynasty...it did not die cleanly but in pieces. Yuan Shikai was a Qing official then republic then vacillate back to a dynasty. The cultural damage/legacy from before leads and feed into the current issue of China cars. The hong bao culture is everywhere lah, just not so very evident. Japanese have a very discreet hong bao culture. This we know.

It is just the China does not have a system that is logical with modern day growth. The CCP is doing the best to provide, given the historical burden it is shouldering. China could very well fragment, hence the Tiananmen incident. The CCP Bo bian ...China is not ready to grow as a democracy, even now more than 20 years. The red guards were a concept that could not work out properly, instead showed what change, uncontrolled as it were will lead to.

Chinese cars are a no no for me as yet. I like to look at them and see if they improve or not but still very cannot make it.

Japan had a good system from the imperial days. The Koreans had a good system with American help post conflict...Yankees had a vested interest in a stable locale versus China and Russia.

 

Back to us, I am sure that a Singaporean car company is very doable, but negotiating the on site difficulties may kill us, unless say the PRC government come in and back us 100percent, unlike the Suzhou joke.

 

The PRC and ROC like Singapore because Captain Harry and cohort proved that Chinese can a coherent and logical system which provides for a good family and life, as well as a good death. The incredible thing is that it proves that Chinese can collaborate with other cultures. This is a very strong stimulant.

 

The Chinese here left the historical burden, we were at a cultural buffet as it were.

 

So I vote for the Singaporean car while remarking on the historical defects of the Chinese car.

 

It is the system administrator that can slowly effect change. Such as the increasing price for Coe for motorcycle, also known as suicide machines or organ donor makers.

 

Cheers for good reading!

 

Someone just said colonisation is good.....

 

Why Hong Kong and Singapore work today, despite being populated by Chinese, could well be attributed to the fact that we have been "brainwashed" and conditioned after almost 200 years under the Brits! We may have become bananas....

 

But now with the new influx of immigrants and culture from the old toing kok, don't be surprise if the Chinese here revert back to their true natural selves.....

Edited by Volvobrick
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Made in Singapore Mercedes Benz, ai mai ? Wasn't too long ago the assembly plant was still around. The company still around.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jr9rFVR26Kg

Ya. I remember 红 舌 救。

Nice song. Although the camaraderie shown would be better served in heathy pursuits.

Nice memory blast.

 

To Volvobrick,

 

Many ways to slice the pie, the Chinese chose wisely to drop some traits and to augment other old country traits such as 居安思危。

 

As well as the PRC here now are not the same Chinese that built this nation with other brothers from different mothers.

 

Cheers.

 

I am very sad today. I cannot speak of it, but I am very sad.

Edited by Super366
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Shanghai Motor Show: Chinese manufacturer Qoros to unveil new compact SUV.

http://www.themalaymailonline.com/drive/article/shanghai-motor-show-chinese-manufacturer-qoros-to-unveil-new-compact-suv

SHANGHAI, April 11 — In its hometown of Shanghai, the Chinese manufacturer Qoros will unveil a new compact SUV concept, which is set to be the precursor to an entirely new range of production cars. Visitors at the Shanghai Motor Show will be able to view the new prototype from April 22.

The Chinese-Israeli manufacturer Qoros, a co-venture of Israel Corporation and Chery Automobile, is preparing to take on the European market and its well-established brands.

After revealing an initial prototype in 2011, Qoros made its big debut in 2013 at the Geneva Motor Show, where it presented its first production sedan, the Qoros 3, and two concepts, the Qoros 3 Cross Hybrid and Qoros 3 Estate.

The Qoros 3 and its variations

The Qoros 3 introduced the brand’s visual identity, including a central logo on the upper edge of the front grille and LED headlight clusters at the front and the rear. In terms of safety, the new sedan made a name for itself in the Euro New Car Assessement Programme (NCAP) crash tests, in which it achieved the best overall score of any car tested in 2013 (88per cent). As a side note, it was also the first Chinese car to earn a five-star rating in the crash tests. Today, the Qoros 3 is still the brand’s flagship model.

In 2014, once again in Geneva, the brand presented its second production model, the Qoros 3 Hatch, a compact hatchback based on the original vehicle, only slightly sportier. Finally, at the Guangzhou Motor Show last fall, Qoros unveiled its first SUV, the Qoros 3 City 1.6T.

All of the brand’s cars are equipped with the QorosQloud infotainment system, which is controlled through an eight-inch touch screen and offers services developed in collaboration with Microsoft.

Initially available only in China, the three vehicles will be rolled out progressively in Europe. After launching the Qoros 3 in Slovakia in 2014, the manufacturer plans to market the sedan in Western European countries from 2016 at a starting price of below €20,000 (around RM77,582). — AFP-Relaxnews

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Turbocharged

After so many decades, car designs didn't change much from the 4 wheels, steering, pedals, etc. other than the curves and outline shapes.

 

I am sure, these can be refresh easily either within the 1 billion people or even using $ to get others to design for you.

 

Is there great leaps in technology for cars? Is the so called safety test something impossible even the Japanese and Korean did not meet initially?

 

The answer is on how much you are willing to pay for the product and not the ability to construct. If you just look at handpone, you will know if the day will come.

 

For Singaporeans, we are just fixation with brand without using brain. Me also included sometimes. It is the way we are brought up but with more people going oversea to broaden our cramped mind, we are opening up slowly.

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I beg to differ.

 

It's the mindset of the country and the people

 

They don't take pride in what they manufacture. Thats why there's a lot of imitation, poor quality, defects, contamination report going on in China.

 

Is it difficult to build a car? Hell no! But Chinese car fanboys (aka super price sensitive group) keep harping on this.

 

Is it difficult to change culture and mindset of a country? Yes!

 

China will still be stuck with this for the next 50 years. It takes generations to change.

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After so many decades, car designs didn't change much from the 4 wheels, steering, pedals, etc. other than the curves and outline shapes.

 

I am sure, these can be refresh easily either within the 1 billion people or even using $ to get others to design for you.

 

Is there great leaps in technology for cars? Is the so called safety test something impossible even the Japanese and Korean did not meet initially?

 

The answer is on how much you are willing to pay for the product and not the ability to construct. If you just look at handpone, you will know if the day will come.

 

For Singaporeans, we are just fixation with brand without using brain. Me also included sometimes. It is the way we are brought up but with more people going oversea to broaden our cramped mind, we are opening up slowly.

 

I have a fren who crashed his BMW 3 series more than 10 years ago.  He walk out of the car with some burned on his hand.  Beside airbag comes out, engine switch off, door unlock and hazard light on.  That has stuck with me for years..

 

When i bought a BMW 5 series that was build in 2002, it has 8 airbags in the car.

 

Nowadays, i will be weary of no. of airbag in the car.  To me, more does not means better.  It shows that the manufacturer concern with safety.  This will translate into better safety cell for drivers and passengers.

 

Even smart fortwo also got 8 airbags.

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Turbocharged

Maybe need to read more about air bags. I won't say it is no good but I am not sure it helps in all situations. The mother and daughter that fell into the river did try to unlock themselves by unbuckling their seatbelt. As why they didn't have the opportunity to get out or open the door, a bit difficult to determine now. I am sure if got time to unbuckle, sure got time to open door. But if the bags are against you, how? Just thinking, I am not sure.

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I beg to differ.

 

It's the mindset of the country and the people

 

They don't take pride in what they manufacture. Thats why there's a lot of imitation, poor quality, defects, contamination report going on in China.

 

Is it difficult to build a car? Hell no! But Chinese car fanboys (aka super price sensitive group) keep harping on this.

 

Is it difficult to change culture and mindset of a country? Yes!

 

China will still be stuck with this for the next 50 years. It takes generations to change.

 

True. It is their attitude, they do for the sake of doing. It matters more that they complete their task, doesn't matter if the end product works.

 

I work for a China group company and even their own people notice the cultural difference between them and the rest.

 

50 years I am not sure, but one day they will reach their destination..

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