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Ben Davis not allowed to defer NS for Fulham stint

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Not too sure about the milking part...

Below is the bio from Fulham

https://www.fulhamfc.com/player-profiles/ben-davis

Which mentioned he hail from singapore and was called up by singapore national team.

Nationality British is to work around the work permit rules for foreigners. I think most soccer fans who follow EPL will know about this rule.

Also, he was called up in 2018 to represent us in the Asian cup qualifiers. If he had played even one game even as a last 30s sub, Fifa would not have allowed him to switch country , which in a way shows that he was ready and willing to represent Singapore. It is not his fault that he was not played.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-soccer-fifa-nationalities/fifa-to-look-into-changing-nationality-rules-idUSKBN1CO31N

At present, players who have played a competitive international for one team cannot switch to another national side even when they hold dual nationality.  

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48 minutes ago, Tianmo said:

I didnt want to mention too much earlier because I understand how our local Football fans feel towards the incident. Not easy for a football talent to come by, but even after so much has surface, and i still see ppl supporting him. Even  wanted to see him beat SG as a thai, playing for Thailand. 

Facts are facts, I hope ppl have cooled down enough to see the facts and agenda. But if they are still happy to be suckers, and cheering for ppl who make them suckers. Well, everyone is entitle to their own right.[laugh][laugh][laugh]

In the first place, is he even a football talent?? 😕

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28 minutes ago, Benarsenal said:

This is pretty much correct. He has barely any links to Singapore other than he studied here for a while. Frankly how did he get Singapore citizenship in the first place when neither of his parents are Singaporean and he was not born here.

But it's a globalised world now. Multiple nationalities are getting more and more common as barriers are broken down and people travel and inter-cultural marriages happen (Heck even Fandi married a South African). We cannot possibly tie down every single person who has an ounce of link to Singapore and force them to declare loyalty, when they have no intention to. That's just wrong IMO.

For me I think in situations like this, we need to be fair and give them the choice. Before enlistment ask them a question, "Do you intend to stay loyal to Singapore?" If the answer is no, they have to submit a plan to MINDEF detailing what their intentions are r.e. emigration, and they have to execute based on the timeline given (has to be reasonable, within five years for example). If they don't follow this plan then immediately enlist them to NS. If they do end up migrating then their Singapore citizenship is void.

Loyalty cannot be forced. It never ends well. I think we should just let him go and wish him well. No point being bitter and petty about it, or worse, claim credit.

Why don't we give *every* male a choice before enlistment? Including those born in Singapore? Want to stay, serve NS. Don't want, leave and never come back except as a foreigner with the same exact rights - i.e. if a foreigner can seek employment and become a PR, so can they.

That seems very fair to me.

I know there is this utter bullsh*t about "special privileges" and "subsidies" enjoyed as a child that somehow obligate a male child (but not a female one, who presumably "enjoys" the exact same crap) to "serve the nation". Tell me, why can't they put a dollar value on all these subsidies, have it publicly scrutinisable and defensible (unlike many other things they pull out of their collective arses) and just make the parents or guardians pay this and dissolve all NS obligations? Just like they place a value on breaking a government bond? I'll tell you why - because these "subsidies", when you compare what PRs pay vs Singaporeans, don't amount to a heck of a lot.

(And it's all a load of specious claptrap anyway - I know parents who've transferred their kids to international schools with zero subsidies and full fees because their kids can't cope with the local curriculum, but they still end up having to serve NS. No evidence of any rebates coming their way).

Because if we are not equitable in how we treat those born in SG versus those born outside of it, then - and I'm sorry to put it so bluntly - it's a curse to be born a male here.

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If he gets seriously injured or someone whacked his leg with an object, his playing career is over. Then what he will do? Stick to Thailand? Or come back SG and serve NS as a clerk?

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2 hours ago, Turboflat4 said:

Do athletes enjoy automatic diplomatic status? But even if they do, any country sending their mission overseas needs to seek the host nation approval right? 

Ben Davis should never be given clearance to land on sg soil to play in a world cup (should that come to pass). If he does, he should be arrested as a defaulter. Otherwise the gahmen will lose all credibility. 

on a related note

https://www.scmp.com/news/asia/southeast-asia/article/2182413/mahathirs-malaysia-bans-all-israeli-nationals-events-it

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14 minutes ago, Tianmo said:

How he gotten his citizenship is beyond us, I would also be interested to know the reason if it can surface.

Nope, I dont think anyone is forcing his loyalty, rather he has a duty to fulfill and he is running away from it. He is free to revoke his SG citizenship and become whatever citizen he likes, but before he can do that, he needs to serve NS. 

I dont think he is important enough for MINDEF to have to have him set up a plan for MINDEF to monitor. When he became citizen, there is an oath he needs to take, being under age, his parents  would have taken the oath on his behalf, and it is their duty to relate the oath to him when he grow up.  If I am not wrong, staying loyal is not an option in the oath. 

After enjoying all the benefits of a citizen, with no intention to serve this country, I think it is fair to serve NS in return. After that he can revoke his SG citizenship, nobody going to really bother.

Nobody is holding him back, he can go, but he needs to fulfill his obligation to serve NS. This is quite straight forward.

My bigger question is this: Is it fair to impose this duty and obligation on him?

What benefits did he gain from being in Singapore? So he attended Sports School, big deal. Has our Sports School ever produced any international sporting talent? Not that I know of. Even our Joseph Schooling went overseas (also haven't served NS by the way).

Like I said, we cannot force every single person with even the tiniest link to our country to 'fulfil their obligations'. It's like those kids who just happened to be born here but essentially spent all their lives abroad, and have no intention to ever come and live here. It's grossly unfair to make them serve NS.

We just need to know when to let things go.

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1 minute ago, JohnSHL said:

I don't know how closely related that is - that's just the well-known antisemitism that many politicians in that country love to play up and pander to. What I'm talking about is Singapore sticking like glue to a principle against a single law-breaker.

Anyway, I think countries who want to place blanket bans based on nationalities of athletes shouldn't be allowed to host any events of import. But that doesn't mean a country should be forced to host a single member of a visiting team who's violated the laws of the host country.

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6 minutes ago, Turboflat4 said:

Why don't we give *every* male a choice before enlistment? Including those born in Singapore? Want to stay, serve NS. Don't want, leave and never come back except as a foreigner with the same exact rights - i.e. if a foreigner can seek employment and become a PR, so can they.

That seems very fair to me.

I know there is this utter bullsh*t about "special privileges" and "subsidies" enjoyed as a child that somehow obligate a male child (but not a female one, who presumably "enjoys" the exact same crap) to "serve the nation". Tell me, why can't they put a dollar value on all these subsidies, have it publicly scrutinisable and defensible (unlike many other things they pull out of their collective arses) and just make the parents or guardians pay this and dissolve all NS obligations? Just like they place a value on breaking a government bond? I'll tell you why - because these "subsidies", when you compare what PRs pay vs Singaporeans, don't amount to a heck of a lot.

(And it's all a load of specious claptrap anyway - I know parents who've transferred their kids to international schools with zero subsidies and full fees because their kids can't cope with the local curriculum, but they still end up having to serve NS. No evidence of any rebates coming their way).

Because if we are not equitable in how we treat those born in SG versus those born outside of it, then - and I'm sorry to put it so bluntly - it's a curse to be born a male here.

I would support this too. Those who want to leave, let them go. It's only fair.

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3 minutes ago, Adrianli said:

If he gets seriously injured or someone whacked his leg with an object, his playing career is over. Then what he will do? Stick to Thailand? Or come back SG and serve NS as a clerk?

anw his case is no big deal. alot of ppl sympathise with him, cos it got blow up by the media who got nothing to report. see after so long they still want interview bababa.

all the years in my reservist i see case much much worst then him.

family break up. bankruptcy, tio ah long ,drugs , divorce etc etc .

all these much more urgent case then this ben, but those guys still come back and serve 1 way or another. just that 'he is just another local' no reporter go do interview bababa only.

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8 minutes ago, Adrianli said:

If he gets seriously injured or someone whacked his leg with an object, his playing career is over. Then what he will do? Stick to Thailand? Or come back SG and serve NS as a clerk?

He doesn't have to play football. There's all sorts of other things he can do also. Nationality doesn't play into it at all.

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1 minute ago, Turboflat4 said:

 But that doesn't mean a country should be forced to host a single member of a visiting team who's violated the laws of the host country.

Can (or rather, should) they ask countries with extradition agreements with Singapore to detain him and extradite him to Singapore? It's been done before for criminal cases. This will surely curtail his playing career.

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2 minutes ago, Beregond said:

anw his case is no big deal. alot of ppl sympathise with him, cos it got blow up by the media who got nothing to report. see after so long they still want interview bababa.

all the years in my reservist i see case much much worst then him.

family break up. bankruptcy, tio ah long ,drugs , divorce etc etc .

all these much more urgent case then this ben, but those guys still come back and serve 1 way or another. just that 'he is just another local' no reporter go do interview bababa only.

comparing apples to oranges here...

2 wks reservist vs 2yrs full time NS

 

but agreed, not sure why so much media attention on him. Perhaps due to the many local football fans here.

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3 minutes ago, JohnSHL said:

Can (or rather, should) they ask countries with extradition agreements with Singapore to detain him and extradite him to Singapore? It's been done before for criminal cases. This will surely curtail his playing career.

I probably wouldn't go that far. But make sure everyone knows he's not welcome in SG, except behind bars.

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8 minutes ago, Benarsenal said:

My bigger question is this: Is it fair to impose this duty and obligation on him?

What benefits did he gain from being in Singapore? So he attended Sports School, big deal. Has our Sports School ever produced any international sporting talent? Not that I know of. Even our Joseph Schooling went overseas (also haven't served NS by the way).

Like I said, we cannot force every single person with even the tiniest link to our country to 'fulfil their obligations'. It's like those kids who just happened to be born here but essentially spent all their lives abroad, and have no intention to ever come and live here. It's grossly unfair to make them serve NS.

We just need to know when to let things go.

i disagree on this fair or unfair... or what benefits he gain from being in SG

 

As a Singapore Citizen, you MUST serve NS. The question is should it have been deferred....

For those kids who happened to be born here... don't blame on SG forcing their obligations on them..... ask them blame their parents why their parents want to give birth to them in SG..... heck the kid shouldalso  blame himself for being the strongest swimmer when their parents heysho heysho

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I just think that the bigger picture is, Singapore needs to learn to be bit more flexible on these matters, in today's world.

Yes defence is important. But we already have a dwindling population with many people choosing not to have kids here. If there's yet another disadvantage to having kids here it's not going to help matters.

Look at other countries with conscription. South Korea offers deferment for big name stars, exemption for those who've gotten great achievements. And NS doesn't always have to mean military service. We can get them to do other things to contribute to nation building too, like serving the community or what not.

Again, there's no point in forcing. Otherwise it will just build up a lot of resentment and will eventually backfire.

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38 minutes ago, Adrianli said:

If he gets seriously injured or someone whacked his leg with an object, his playing career is over. Then what he will do? Stick to Thailand? Or come back SG and serve NS as a clerk?

Then you will see someone familiar at the overhead bridge in Bangkok.

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3 hours ago, Tianmo said:

Born in Thailand to a British father and a Thai mother.  Moved to SG at age 5,  became citizen 4 yrs later at age 9. 

From age 9 to 15, make use of his SG citizenship to get subsidies education in local school.  Enrolled into sports school as a citizen paying citizen rate.  Move to UK before completing his DSA obligations in DSA admission to sports schools. 

Called up to represent SG but not filled. 

Refuse to serve NS. 

So how local is Ben Davis?  Besides making used of SG to give him subsidies education and football training by means of a citizenship,  isn't he just another imported FT given citizenship? 

At least those imported FT players given citizenship did their part for SG.  Ben Davis? 

It's quite common for gov to even things out, you became citizen with an agenda. You will have to pay for it in some way. Serve NS to offset what you have gain as a citizen,  fair enough? 

Here we have an imported FT,  making use of SG as a stepping board,  enjoying benefits of local born citizens,  but not willing to perform duty of a local citizen. 

And now he is saying he had not feeling and no attachment to SG.  Well we cannot fault him for saying so,  because SG was always only being made use of as a stepping borad and a bridge . 

And we have locals cheering for him.  Can someone explain to me why? 

Are we really so happy to be made suckers? And cheer for ppl who make us look like suckers? 

Ben Davis a local football talent?  Really? Seriously? 

It's not his fault when he was 9 years old.  What does a 9 year old or 15 year old kid know about citizenship and the obligation?  He just follow whatever his parents says.

It's his parents who did all the planning.  Shld blame on them for their hidden agenda. 

Like all FTs (even those got PR and SG citizenship), they all using Singapore as a stepping board.  When they see something better in another place, they will go.  it's a open secret. 

We are made to look like fools. 

if he ever get arrested, he got his parents to blame on. 

 

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I put out this hypothetical scenario:

Let's say we force this guy with multiple nationalities to serve. He's unhappy and has a lot of resentment for Singapore because it basically ruined and curtailed his career.

In times of actual war, do you think he will truly, genuinely with his heart fight for this country?

On the flip side, if we as a country wholeheartedly support him, enable him to be successful in pursuing his career. When in times of crisis he will be more than likely to want to defend the country that has backed him and helped him get to where he is.

This kind of things is more psychological than anything. We need to see past more than just physical might.

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