Lithium-Iron Battery (LFP) - New & Better Alternative?

[jumpwarrior]

@Vratenza @Carbon82

 

Come on guys, let's be realistic here. All batteries pose some sort of fire hazard, handling and storage limitations and toxicity. It's about which is LESS likely to catch on fire/ IF it catches on fire, which causes LESS harm or damage/ to what EXTENT of toxicity it is IF you EVER ingest it. 

Regarding handling and storage, that's what the Battery Management System is for for the LiFePO4 - this helps to prevent overcharging, abnormal discharge, etc. 

 

Since you heavily rely on SDS, here are some lead-acid/ AGM battery SDS which are readily available online. 

As you can see, lead-acid/ AGM batteries also have its limitations and same fire hazard, handling/storage limitations and toxicity. But which poses MORE severe damages when shit hits the fan, you be the judge. 

 

LEAD ACID BATTERIES:

https://www.batteriesplus.com/image/sds-lead-wet-acid.pdf

http://www.eastpennmanufacturing.com/wp-content/uploads/Wet-Batteries.pdf

 

AGM BATTERIES:

http://usbattery.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/SDS-AGM-Battery.pdf

https://www.rollsbattery.com/wp-content/uploads/transport_certs/SDS-AGM_Battery.pdf

[jumpwarrior]

TS, you just bought a car and now thinking of swapping the car battery for some fancy stuff?

 

Car battery is mainly only to start engine. No point spending your brain cells thinking about this. Most people just want a value-for-money reliable lead-acid battery that last as long as possible to have less downtime and less expenditure.

 

Focus on more fun things like:

 

- Chip up engine

- better engine oil

- K&N air filter

- suspension upgrades

- change tyres to sportier ones

- change to forged rims

- car coating

- car camera(s)

etc etc

Thanks for the suggestions man, I'll definitely consider those - especially those which will perhaps help lower any cost in the long run. Battery is just something I'm interested in cos I have heard of stories that people drive 2 years plus then their batteries die on them unexpectedly. Also read about how people kenna carrot by buying some lousy batteries, damn ex but also last them a few months only. And just thinking about having to worry every 2 to 3 (if lucky) years when to change my batteries and what if I forget, then i kenna stranded somewhere ulu or what it's damn troublesome. 

 

That's why I am looking for alternatives. If up front cost a bit higher but helps me with other things in the long run (eg. life cycle, safety, start/stop compatibility, etc etc) then might as well right? I know most people are more cautious and hesitant about having to fork out a larger amount up front, but a bit short-sighted don't you think? I'm sure you heard the saying "good things no cheap, cheap things no good" - does not apply to all but definitely majority but of cos must do research la, that's why I'm seeking opinions here. 

[Galantspeedz]

personal opinion, a normal car battery seldom die suddenly... your crank will feel weaker first... and if you continue to ignore it... then it just get weaker and weaker before it die off

[Carbon82]

Vratenza Carbon82

 

Come on guys, let's be realistic here. All batteries pose some sort of fire hazard, handling and storage limitations and toxicity. It's about which is LESS likely to catch on fire/ IF it catches on fire, which causes LESS harm or damage/ to what EXTENT of toxicity it is IF you EVER ingest it. 

Regarding handling and storage, that's what the Battery Management System is for for the LiFePO4 - this helps to prevent overcharging, abnormal discharge, etc. 

 

Since you heavily rely on SDS, here are some lead-acid/ AGM battery SDS which are readily available online. 

As you can see, lead-acid/ AGM batteries also have its limitations and same fire hazard, handling/storage limitations and toxicity. But which poses MORE severe damages when shit hits the fan, you be the judge. 

 

LEAD ACID BATTERIES:

https://www.batteriesplus.com/image/sds-lead-wet-acid.pdf

http://www.eastpennmanufacturing.com/wp-content/uploads/Wet-Batteries.pdf

 

AGM BATTERIES:

http://usbattery.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/SDS-AGM-Battery.pdf

https://www.rollsbattery.com/wp-content/uploads/transport_certs/SDS-AGM_Battery.pdf

 

In the context of risk evaluation, there are 2 main criteria we need to focus on: Likelihood (of occurrence) and severity (of the risk). The 3rd one being what / who will be affected, which I shall explain in details in the later part of this post.

 

The key risk we are all concerns with is FIRE. While LiFePO4 and Lead Acid batteries both have the risk of catch fire while in use, the triggering mechanism is somewhat different, with the former by heat (mainly), while the other mainly by spark (igniting the H2 produce during charging). SO how does these differences affects driver / owners?

 

As I have shared in my earlier post, temperature in engine bay is typically 50 deg C or higher, even when proper air circulation is in place, and thus the fire risk with LiFePO4 battery is for real (objectively speaking). In the case of Lead Acid battery, concentration of H2 in the engine bay will be well below LEL (Lower Explosive Limit) with proper air circulation, AND almost non existent of spark (provided wiring and connection are intact / in good condition). All these are referred to as Likelihood of occurrence.

 

Now on severity, once a fire started in the engine bay, the whole car maybe brought to ash (worst case scenario) and injury maybe possible if the fire spread fast enough. So the same level of severity for LiFePO4 and Lead Acid batteries. Although in the SDS, Lead Acid do have more health and safety hazard than LiFePO4, such as corrosive, potential carcinogen, etc., but the harm will only be brought about if someone come into direct contact with the battery (including inhaling vapour emitted from it). Since direct or frequent interaction is not required between driver/owner and the battery, these additional hazards are thus negligible.

 

In conclusion, while Lead Acid batteries are not any safer than LiFePO4 batteries (in term of known health and safety hazards), most if not all user (driver/owner) will not be affected. And given the nature of how a fire may occur (in the engine bay), Lead Acid batteries is a safer option, imo. I am not writing off LiFePO4 batteries totally, but if there is a safer option available, why take on additional risk?  

In my line, I  often have to ask for and look at section 4 (First Aid) and 11 (Toxicology) when the shit hits the fan.

 

Actually I have to look through all 16 sections before approving the material to be used...

 

In your case, there is one more thing to look for: @radx's contact, if everything else fail, tio boh?    

[awhtc]

Lithium is a very reactive metal. Lead is much lower.

[inlinesix]

In the context of risk evaluation, there are 2 main criteria we need to focus on: Likelihood (of occurrence) and severity (of the risk). The 3rd one being what / who will be affected, which I shall explain in details in the later part of this post.

 

The key risk we are all concerns with is FIRE. While LiFePO4 and Lead Acid batteries both have the risk of catch fire while in use, the triggering mechanism is somewhat different, with the former by heat (mainly), while the other mainly by spark (igniting the H2 produce during charging). SO how does these differences affects driver / owners?

 

As I have shared in my earlier post, temperature in engine bay is typically 50 deg C or higher, even when proper air circulation is in place, and thus the fire risk with LiFePO4 battery is for real (objectively speaking). In the case of Lead Acid battery, concentration of H2 in the engine bay will be well below LEL (Lower Explosive Limit) with proper air circulation, AND almost non existent of spark (provided wiring and connection are intact / in good condition). All these are referred to as Likelihood of occurrence.

 

Now on severity, once a fire started in the engine bay, the whole car maybe brought to ash (worst case scenario) and injury maybe possible if the fire spread fast enough. So the same level of severity for LiFePO4 and Lead Acid batteries. Although in the SDS, Lead Acid do have more health and safety hazard than LiFePO4, such as corrosive, potential carcinogen, etc., but the harm will only be brought about if someone come into direct contact with the battery (including inhaling vapour emitted from it). Since direct or frequent interaction is not required between driver/owner and the battery, these additional hazards are thus negligible.

 

In conclusion, while Lead Acid batteries are not any safer than LiFePO4 batteries (in term of known health and safety hazards), most if not all user (driver/owner) will not be affected. And given the nature of how a fire may occur (in the engine bay), Lead Acid batteries is a safer option, imo. I am not writing off LiFePO4 batteries totally, but if there is a safer option available, why take on additional risk?

 

 

Actually I have to look through all 16 sections before approving the material to be used...

 

In your case, there is one more thing to look for: @radx's contact, if everything else fail, tio boh?

Based on what you mentioned above, if battery store in boot, it is safer to use LiFePO4 battery.

[jumpwarrior]

In the context of risk evaluation, there are 2 main criteria we need to focus on: Likelihood (of occurrence) and severity (of the risk). The 3rd one being what / who will be affected, which I shall explain in details in the later part of this post.

 

The key risk we are all concerns with is FIRE. While LiFePO4 and Lead Acid batteries both have the risk of catch fire while in use, the triggering mechanism is somewhat different, with the former by heat (mainly), while the other mainly by spark (igniting the H2 produce during charging). SO how does these differences affects driver / owners?

 

As I have shared in my earlier post, temperature in engine bay is typically 50 deg C or higher, even when proper air circulation is in place, and thus the fire risk with LiFePO4 battery is for real (objectively speaking). In the case of Lead Acid battery, concentration of H2 in the engine bay will be well below LEL (Lower Explosive Limit) with proper air circulation, AND almost non existent of spark (provided wiring and connection are intact / in good condition). All these are referred to as Likelihood of occurrence.

 

Now on severity, once a fire started in the engine bay, the whole car maybe brought to ash (worst case scenario) and injury maybe possible if the fire spread fast enough. So the same level of severity for LiFePO4 and Lead Acid batteries. Although in the SDS, Lead Acid do have more health and safety hazard than LiFePO4, such as corrosive, potential carcinogen, etc., but the harm will only be brought about if someone come into direct contact with the battery (including inhaling vapour emitted from it). Since direct or frequent interaction is not required between driver/owner and the battery, these additional hazards are thus negligible.

 

In conclusion, while Lead Acid batteries are not any safer than LiFePO4 batteries (in term of known health and safety hazards), most if not all user (driver/owner) will not be affected. And given the nature of how a fire may occur (in the engine bay), Lead Acid batteries is a safer option, imo. I am not writing off LiFePO4 batteries totally, but if there is a safer option available, why take on additional risk?  

 

Actually I have to look through all 16 sections before approving the material to be used...

 

In your case, there is one more thing to look for: @radx's contact, if everything else fail, tio boh?  

 

Thank you for the insight regarding how both types of batteries might possibly catch fire - Heat for LiFePO4 and spark for lead acid and how the severity will be the same when the car catches on fire and brought to ashes (if it happens).  

 

I do like to point out that with the LiFePO4, there is the battery management system which has a temperature sensor that shuts down the battery when it hits critical temperature. Some also have an active cooling system available. Also, the battery is usually contained in a flame-retardant case to prevent the spread of fire but of cos I understand that freak accidents do occur and quality of product is also integral. 

 

However on the same note regarding heat & fire, I believe that lead acid batteries are susceptible to thermal runaway (LiFePO4 do not have such likelihood/risk), which is also brought about by heat. So doesn't this put both at the same supposed Likelihood of catching on fire?

 

I guess what Davidtch said is right, that if we put the LiFePO4 battery in the boot (if your car model allows), then it would be a superior option? What are your thoughts?

[jumpwarrior]

personal opinion, a normal car battery seldom die suddenly... your crank will feel weaker first... and if you continue to ignore it... then it just get weaker and weaker before it die off

You are definitely right, but how often are people aware/bother to take notice of such changes? I know of plenty of friends who just drive for the purpose of getting from point A to point B, without considering the state of their vehicle and thus this causes the supposed sudden death of battery. And with all the various emergency battery replacement services available, it goes to show that not all will notice the weaker crank or will simply ignore it. 

 

Also, it's not just about whether it has a sudden death, but also how quickly it dies and then how often you have to change it during the 10 years (or less). To me it's a hassle having to go down to the workshop to change, bargain for price, see which place sell cheaper but still don't compromise on quality, good installation, etc. If this LiFePO4 one allows me to use it for up to 4 to 5 years, I don't mind paying a bit more for the convenience. What do you think?

[Vratenza]

These days with push start technology so commonplace, it can be hard to judge the cranking strength as it is all done by electronically with just a push of a button. 

 

personal opinion, a normal car battery seldom die suddenly... your crank will feel weaker first... and if you continue to ignore it... then it just get weaker and weaker before it die off

 

[Kb27]

Lead acid battery can "die" suddenly.

It happened when enough conductive material falls out from the plates to the bottom, make a bridge, and shorted out one of the cells.

Now you have 5 cells about 10.6V which is not enough to turnover the engine.

 

As for lithium-ion, it will probably die in some form, which I'm not familiar.

 

But all batteries will eventually wear out and need to be replaced.

Edited September 13, 2018 by Kb27

[Kb27]

Lithium is a very reactive metal. Lead is much lower.

 

When they were looking for the best lightweight element for a battery, they looked at the periodic table.

Lithium is high up in the list, with the lowest atomic number of 3.

[Victor68]

personal opinion, a normal car battery seldom die suddenly... your crank will feel weaker first... and if you continue to ignore it... then it just get weaker and weaker before it die off

After reading 2 pages of comments, i still didnt get a answer i thought i could. A battery that evebtually will be the EV battery for the future.like what hou said, normal car battery, 2 years unlikely to give you any trouble if you dont have fancy stuff.

[Carbon82]

Based on what you mentioned above, if battery store in boot, it is safer to use LiFePO4 battery.

 

Thank you for the insight regarding how both types of batteries might possibly catch fire - Heat for LiFePO4 and spark for lead acid and how the severity will be the same when the car catches on fire and brought to ashes (if it happens).  

 

I do like to point out that with the LiFePO4, there is the battery management system which has a temperature sensor that shuts down the battery when it hits critical temperature. Some also have an active cooling system available. Also, the battery is usually contained in a flame-retardant case to prevent the spread of fire but of cos I understand that freak accidents do occur and quality of product is also integral. 

 

However on the same note regarding heat & fire, I believe that lead acid batteries are susceptible to thermal runaway (LiFePO4 do not have such likelihood/risk), which is also brought about by heat. So doesn't this put both at the same supposed Likelihood of catching on fire?

 

I guess what Davidtch said is right, that if we put the LiFePO4 battery in the boot (if your car model allows), then it would be a superior option? What are your thoughts?

 

If we are now in a 4 seasons country, it would be a clear cut YES for me (for using LiFePO4 which is housed in a car boot). Here in Singapore, if one is to park the car in an unsheltered carpark, temperature within the boot and cabin can reach 50 deg C or more too.

 

@jumpwarrior, I would like to point out another thing for your consideration. From risk management point of view, battery management system, active cooling system are NOT entirely fool proof to prevent temperature from hitting the critical level (just like most if not all modern mobile phone and charger have auto cutoff feature to prevent over-charging the battery, yet there are still reported case of phone fire). In a nutshell, it does help to reduce the risk, but NOT eliminating it totally.

 

Last, LiFePO4 is NOT immune to thermal runaway...

These days with push start technology so commonplace, it can be hard to judge the cranking strength as it is all done by electronically with just a push of a button. 

 

From my experience, when the battery is weak, upon starting the car (using push start button), the cabin light and speedometer panel will become much dimer till the engine starts. This is best biggest tell tale sign...

[Carbon82]

After reading 2 pages of comments, i still didnt get a answer i thought i could. A battery that evebtually will be the EV battery for the future.like what hou said, normal car battery, 2 years unlikely to give you any trouble if you dont have fancy stuff.

 

Frankly, I sensed some hard selling here... I have been dealing with several types of Li-ion batteries for the past 5 - 6 years, and I dare to say that I understand the associated risks better than most people. I am glad that the management now take my recommendations very seriously after a fire incident sometime back (imagine they laugh it off when I presented my first set of findings and recommendations).

 

For EV, there isn't much alternative but to go for Li-ion battery (size, weight vs power capacity), but to spend ~3 times the cost of a Lead Acid battery for LiFePO4 for the sake of not wanting a battery failure?! I would rather invest on a $100 plus jump start battery which can also double up as a power bank, while eliminating the additional risk associating with whatever Li-ion batteries... ...

[Vratenza]

My more recent experience of push start  car with battery that needs replacing is my hybrid. Maybe it's the hybrid system whereby it could be drawing power from the hybrid battery to power the rest of the electronics  instead of the regular battery, I did not get any warning sign until one day the car just will not start and the cluster error  message just ask me to replace the battery. 

 

 

From my experience, when the battery is weak, upon starting the car (using push start button), the cabin light and speedometer panel will become much dimer till the engine starts. This is best biggest tell tale sign...

 

[Victor68]

My more recent experience of push start car with battery that needs replacing is my hybrid. Maybe it's the hybrid system whereby it could be drawing power from the hybrid battery to power the rest of the electronics instead of the regular battery, I did not get any warning sign until one day the car just will not start and the cluster error message just ask me to replace the battery.

I agree bat5ery still got many years to go. All these sale talk listen can liao.but we also need people to be pay for R&D. So thise truely bieleve should help out.Government is one of the key sponsor but they also should be accountable for the spending too.

[Matrix0405]

If same price as lead-acid, stable and can last longer than can buy. But seems like still some time away.

[jumpwarrior]

My more recent experience of push start  car with battery that needs replacing is my hybrid. Maybe it's the hybrid system whereby it could be drawing power from the hybrid battery to power the rest of the electronics  instead of the regular battery, I did not get any warning sign until one day the car just will not start and the cluster error  message just ask me to replace the battery. 

You jumpstarted the battery to have it replaced? Which battery did you replace it with?

If same price as lead-acid, stable and can last longer than can buy. But seems like still some time away.

Yeah, it will probably take a while for price to be lower than what it is currently/closer to the lead-acid types and also now not sure where to get it in Singapore anyway even if want to get it. I don't see local sales for it.