Singapore-KL ties hit by disputes over waters and airspace

[Mercury1]

ICAO gave the FIR control to Singapore in the region on the basis it follows the set rulings to adhere, are we controlling their sovereign airspace yes we are but with Malaysia agreement with the understanding we follow ICAO rules and guidelines. What's annoying for me is they are painting us in a light where we are taking over their airspace to the public as the usual bogeyman campaign.

 

Can't say why air traffic doesn't route thru other areas, today's articles makes mention about wind and other factors but I cannot confirm only people involved in ATC would know.

 

That said in the excitement of this I failed to mention initially I do think we should not have jumped the gun and turned on the ILS system without their approval knowing the sensitivity of things across the border.

 

 

you are talking about overflight into or onto another country's airspace. That is sovereignty issue.......you just dont say it is okay if the other party dont respond. Flight plan can change but flight directions during take-off and landing is not that simple. Why not those future flights be approached or take off from or towards the direction of Yio Chu Kang and not from Johore.....that will definitely pose other issues but its all within our air space, thus no complsin from across the border. PLAB is moving house..........that route will be clear then.

 

Thanks,

 

From a technical perspective the ILS settings now do not impact any current developments in that area, from a logical perspective any objections should have a background (i.e new development coming with plans etc). But this is now becoming more a political tool rather than logic driven the only thing SG can do is turn off the ILS until saner heads prevail. 

 

 

K. At least I know where you come from.

 

If flight plans can change as simply as you say, then SG should change it since MY has raised their objection already. 

 

Nice summary article kinda sums up how I see the system working as well.

 

https://www.todayonline.com/singapore/explainer-points-of-dispute-over-seletar-airports-instrument-landing-system?cid=emarsys-today_TODAY%27s%20morning%20briefing%20for%20Dec%2013,%202018%20%28ACTIVE%29%201_newsletter_13122018_today

Okay the explanation is here.

 

Edited December 13, 2018 by Mercury1

[Adrianli]

ICAO gave the FIR control to Singapore in the region on the basis it follows the set rulings to adhere, are we controlling their sovereign airspace yes we are but with Malaysia agreement with the understanding we follow ICAO rules and guidelines. What's annoying for me is they are painting us in a light where we are taking over their airspace to the public as the usual bogeyman campaign.

 

Can't say why air traffic doesn't route thru other areas, today's articles makes mention about wind and other factors but I cannot confirm only people involved in ATC would know.

 

That said in the excitement of this I failed to mention initially I do think we should not have jumped the gun and turned on the ILS system without their approval knowing the sensitivity of things across the border.

 

 

 

Thanks,

 

From a technical perspective the ILS settings now do not impact any current developments in that area, from a logical perspective any objections should have a background (i.e new development coming with plans etc). But this is now becoming more a political tool rather than logic driven the only thing SG can do is turn off the ILS until saner heads prevail. 

 

 

 

Airplane easier and safer to land head wind. Tail wind and cross wind will increase the danger of aircraft running off the runway.

 

Head wind means the wind is blowing towards your face. 

 

In SG, we usually have the north-east monsoon winds and south-west monsoon winds.

 

 

 

I fly r/c heli, always hearing the r/c plane folks complaining about the wind direction. Heli does not care about wind direction, vertical up. Only concern is vertical and thermal lifts.

Edited December 13, 2018 by Adrianli

[Playtime]

Get our hui ge and their loke siew fong have a live rap battle.

[Kusje]

 

Thanks,

 

From a technical perspective the ILS settings now do not impact any current developments in that area, from a logical perspective any objections should have a background (i.e new development coming with plans etc). But this is now becoming more a political tool rather than logic driven the only thing SG can do is turn off the ILS until saner heads prevail. 

 

 

I agree it doesn't affect current developments but what about future developments? If MY says okay now, then next then have to nego with SG if they wanna develop their own land? What benefit is there to them to do so?

 

Being a good neighbor, maybe MY can give conditional approval for next 3 years because who knows what they wanna build after that. But do you think SG will accept?

[Evillusion]

ICAO gave the FIR control to Singapore in the region on the basis it follows the set rulings to adhere, are we controlling their sovereign airspace yes we are but with Malaysia agreement with the understanding we follow ICAO rules and guidelines. What's annoying for me is they are painting us in a light where we are taking over their airspace to the public as the usual bogeyman campaign.

 

Can't say why air traffic doesn't route thru other areas, today's articles makes mention about wind and other factors but I cannot confirm only people involved in ATC would know.

 

That said in the excitement of this I failed to mention initially I do think we should not have jumped the gun and turned on the ILS system without their approval knowing the sensitivity of things across the border.

 

 

 

 

Thanks,

 

From a technical perspective the ILS settings now do not impact any current developments in that area, from a logical perspective any objections should have a background (i.e new development coming with plans etc). But this is now becoming more a political tool rather than logic driven the only thing SG can do is turn off the ILS until saner heads prevail.

 

 

 

 

Nice summary article kinda sums up how I see the system working as well.

Arent we playing the same game as them? But of course every country needs a bogeyman at one time or another to justify one's action, isnt it? Seletar Airport/base has been there for a very long time and not much protest from the GOM......but now it is morphing into a huge facility which needs up-to-date hardware and software to handle bigger aircraft that in turn needs a bigger land area to operate 24/7 if need be. There is only so much that one can do with a 486 chip and board nowadays......even if buy a 10 gig harddisk the computer will still be obsolete.

Now there are 2 areas of friction between neighbours eversince the new GOM took over......who is encroaching on anothers' right differs from each point of view......as one friend told me yrs ago, some people will take kindness for weakness.

[Mercury1]

If there were future developments the ILS system can be updated to account for those buildings / rerouting raising the height etc. Thing to me is flights already happen over the vicinity, their minister saying that manual flying is okay for their development but automated flying stunts it just seems contradictory IMO.

 

Haha I guess this part we have to agree to disagree? I mean I will be in the opinion that Singapore side will accept and accommodate but I sense you feel the other way?

 

For all intents and purposes I would like think we've always done what we can to help our neighbor for the benefit of both sides which is why the Johor Royals are supportive of our relationship but the federal government plays a different game altogether though.

 

I agree it doesn't affect current developments but what about future developments? If MY says okay now, then next then have to nego with SG if they wanna develop their own land? What benefit is there to them to do so?

 

Being a good neighbor, maybe MY can give conditional approval for next 3 years because who knows what they wanna build after that. But do you think SG will accept?

 

[Evillusion]

Get our hui ge and their loke siew fong have a live rap battle. ð

Lok siu fang and hui ge.....both are legends in their own right....

[Mercury1]

The only flights the ILS would mainly be supporting would be the firefly airlines, I've been to the new airport its not a huge operation but it was design to anticipate higher traffic to the various part of Malaysia where firefly operates. There only one departure and arrival hall to accommodate everyone, its probably smaller then the one at harbourfront for the ferries.

 

Other incoming flights would be private/charter flights so it was not geared to become a huge airport with airlines coming from their other regions.

 

 

Arent we playing the same game as them? But of course every country needs a bogeyman at one time or another to justify one's action, isnt it? Seletar Airport/base has been there for a very long time and not much protest from the GOM......but now it is morphing into a huge facility which needs up-to-date hardware and software to handle bigger aircraft that in turn needs a bigger land area to operate 24/7 if need be. There is only so much that one can do with a 486 chip and board nowadays......even if buy a 10 gig harddisk the computer will still be obsolete.
Now there are 2 areas of friction between neighbours eversince the new GOM took over......who is encroaching on anothers' right differs from each point of view......as one friend told me yrs ago, some people will take kindness for weakness.

 

[Playtime]

If there were future developments the ILS system can be updated to account for those buildings / rerouting raising the height etc. Thing to me is flights already happen over the vicinity, their minister saying that manual flying is okay for their development but automated flying stunts it just seems contradictory IMO.

 

Haha I guess this part we have to agree to disagree? I mean I will be in the opinion that Singapore side will accept and accommodate but I sense you feel the other way?

 

For all intents and purposes I would like think we've always done what we can to help our neighbor for the benefit of both sides which is why the Johor Royals are supportive of our relationship but the federal government plays a different game altogether though.

But will you still feel the same in future when.. not if.. Malaysia and Indonesia decide to build new airports and also starts ILS-ing Singapore the same way?

[Evillusion]

The only flights the ILS would mainly be supporting would be the firefly airlines, I've been to the new airport its not a huge operation but it was design to anticipate higher traffic to the various part of Malaysia where firefly operates. There only one departure and arrival hall to accommodate everyone, its probably smaller then the one at harbourfront for the ferries.

 

Other incoming flights would be private/charter flights so it was not geared to become a huge airport with airlines coming from their other regions.

With SG development, i can never say never! They will squeeze and maximise profit where they can and within their rights. Why need favour from them....just shift the operation to somewhere else where we dont intrude and step into others foot just because of the ILS. Indonesia is in agreement with us on these......i am sure they can accomodate our flight plan if we operate an airport from Tuas.

[Mercury1]

Of course, they have a right too build their airports and decide their flight plans, but so long as its done in accordance with international law and ICAO approval and guidelines.

 

They cannot just suka build an airport and put ILS in place without determine existing flight route and existing structure, your mid air collision rate would go thru the roof.

 

 

But will you still feel the same in future when.. not if.. Malaysia and Indonesia decide to build new airports and also starts ILS-ing Singapore the same way?

 

But that's the thing right according to them ILS is not okay but manual landing is which is just contradictory of each other, better they announce no flights at all period then Sg can make a consideration to move the airport properly.

 

As much as possible we also dun want to get favors from them but lan lan we small in the end have to suck thumb when they use rationale like this to slap us around.

 

Just on that though, Msia should be in a position to forbid any airlines from crossing their airspace into the Singapore controlled FIR over Pasir Gudang to limit air traffic into seletar.

 

 

With SG development, i can never say never! They will squeeze and maximise profit where they can and within their rights. Why need favour from them....just shift the operation to somewhere else where we dont intrude and step into others foot just because of the ILS. Indonesia is in agreement with us on these......i am sure they can accomodate our flight plan if we operate an airport from Tuas.

 

Edited December 13, 2018 by Mercury1

[Kyrios]

Im going to be the contrarian here...

 

and say that should someone up there wants to initiate military gungho talk......

 

if those 'someone' are personally at the frontline of the battle themselves leading us..then by all means I am ready to lay down my life as well but if it just for some lame reasons (eg for things that dun belong to us in the first place) and you are toying with citizens' lives...then forget it... 

Edited December 13, 2018 by Kyrios

[1fast1]

The way I see it, Malaysia holds all the cards here. As Penang Khaw's press statement itself put it, "To ensure aviation safety, Malaysia is required under international guidelines to provide early notification of upcoming developments."

 

Great. Notification, not "permission". Malaysia should notify Singapore right now of its plans to start designing and constructing the new world's tallest building in... you guessed it, Pasir Gudang. Or anywhere in that triangle of concern really. Cross the 1km mark. Take the crown back from the UAE. Drive up global tourism to Johor with its commanding view of the region, allowing one to see the curvature of the Earth, etc. etc. Everyone in Malaysia happy, including Johor royals. Expensive? No problem, I'm sure China will be eager to chip in, especially if it lets them teach the Terrex-wielding upstarts in the South a lesson. Everyone in China and Malaysia sibei happy.

 

Except Singapore, which would have been completely out-maneuvered. No matter what protests we lodge, we can't very well tell Malaysia they can't build a major tourist attraction where they want to on their land, especially when we haven't even begun actual northern approach ILS flights yet.

 

Best part is: all they have to do is plan and publicise. We LLST.

 

Singapore has to eat humble pie here.

Edited December 13, 2018 by Turboflat4

[Evillusion]

Of course, they have a right too build their airports and decide their flight plans, but so long as its done in accordance with international law and ICAO approval and guidelines.

 

They cannot just suka build an airport and put ILS in place without determine existing flight route and existing structure, your mid air collision rate would go thru the roof.

 

 

 

 

But that's the thing right according to them ILS is not okay but manual landing is which is just contradictory of each other, better they announce no flights at all period then Sg can make a consideration to move the airport properly.

 

As much as possible we also dun want to get favors from them but lan lan we small in the end have to suck thumb when they use rationale like this to slap us around.

 

Just on that though, Msia should be in a position to forbid any airlines from crossing their airspace into the Singapore controlled FIR over Pasir Gudang to limit air traffic into seletar.

in the past when prpeller driven aircraft used Seletar the approach was from the south, with its expansion, manually turbo-prop started to use Malaysian airspace for approach is still okay....but comes jet airliner with ILS......think they want to put a full-stop to Seletar Airports future bigger developments which nobody can actually rule out.

[Sosaria]

The way I see it, Malaysia holds all the cards here. As Penang Khaw's press statement itself put it, "To ensure aviation safety, Malaysia is required under international guidelines to provide early notification of upcoming developments."

 

Great. Notification, not "permission". Malaysia should notify Singapore right now of its plans to start designing and constructing the new world's tallest building in... you guessed it, Pasir Gudang. Cross the 1km mark. Take the crown back from the UAE. Drive up globaltourism to Johorel with its commanding view of the region, allowing one to see the curvature of the Earth, etc. etc. Everyone in Malaysia happy, including Johor royals. Expensive? No problem, I'm sure China will be eager to chip in, especially if it lets them teach the Terrex-wielding upstarts in the South a lesson. Everyone in China and Malaysia sibei happy.

 

...

 

No lehhh .... Ah Khaw say the pilots can "maneuver" around tall obstacles if necessary, doing manual flying as per existing visual procedures.

 

He avoids mentioning that pilots are dependent on ILS (in fact, system is mandatory and must be operative) in order to perform landing in low visibility or in tech terms, the runway visual range (RVR) drops below certain figures.

[1fast1]

No lehhh .... Ah Khaw say the pilots can "maneuver" around tall obstacles if necessary, doing manual flying as per existing visual procedures.

 

He avoids mentioning that pilots are dependent on ILS (in fact, system is mandatory and must be operative) in order to perform landing in low visibility or in tech terms, the runway visual range (RVR) drops below certain figures.

Haha. Yes. Our politicians can blow smoke just like theirs can. That would reduce visibility lol. Edited December 13, 2018 by Turboflat4

[Mercury1]

Staff there told me it was only propeller planes but you're right that one cannot discount future development, from my understanding the ILS was primarily meant to help the planes land especially during poor visibility / raining. 

 

Such a pity though the airport was meant to foster closer ties with families living in remote parts of Msia, had family friendly many areas for kids to keep entertained.

 

Anyway guess we will have to see if both sides can work out a fair resolution.

 

in the past when prpeller driven aircraft used Seletar the approach was from the south, with its expansion, manually turbo-prop started to use Malaysian airspace for approach is still okay....but comes jet airliner with ILS......think they want to put a full-stop to Seletar Airports future bigger developments which nobody can actually rule out.

 

[Wt_know]

all these planning did not take into account ahjib kor will lose the election?