Aloysius Pang dies after SAF trg Ex in New Zealand

[Porche]

SINGAPORE - Singapore-born New Zealand teenager Brandon Smith will be required to fulfil his national service (NS) obligations, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs (MFA) said on Wednesday (March 2).

"Singapore adheres to the fundamental principles of universality and equity for NS. All Singaporeans are expected to fulfil our NS obligations as citizens," MFA stated in a written reply to Jurong GRC MP David Ong's question in Parliament.

"It would not be fair to allow citizens to avoid NS just because they reside overseas."

Mr Ong had wanted to know if the ministry had entered into discussions with New Zealand on the case of Mr Smith, who holds dual citizenship and had previously stated his desire to seek exemption from NS.

The 19-year-old, whose mother is Singaporean and father a New Zealander, moved to the city of Dunedin at the age of eight. He has had multiple applications to defer his NS call-up until he turns 21 - the age when he can relinquish his Singapore citizenship - rejected.

He told New Zealand news site stuff.co.nz in an interview on Jan 24 that spending two years doing NS was "pointless" as he did not speak Mandarin and would feel like an outsider.

But MFA has clarified that Mr Smith would still be liable for any breaches of the Enlistment Act, even if he were to apply for renunciation of his Singapore citizenship after attaining the age of majority.

https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/singapore-born-new-zealand-teenager-has-to-fulfil-national-service-obligations-mfa

Don’t come lah why argue with those idiots

[Atrecord]

didn’t ask me anything just load up and move out

 

transferred from rover to m113 directly ... still must carry officer backpack

[WangWang888]

https://mothership.sg/2019/01/jayley-woo-reporter-aloysius-pang/

 

Very disgusting journalist

[Icedbs]

Then do you propose we remove all form of death penalties, for murderers as well as drug traffickers? It's not all about accidents, or accidents that result in injuries. I'm referring to wilful disregard of the TSR that resulted in deaths of our sons.

 

Keen to hear your answer.

 

For murderers, drug traffickers, kidnappers, those are INTENTIONAL capital crimes.  There is an intent to kill, an intent to cause grievous hurt, etc. 

 

We are talking about accidents. Meaning there was no intent, but oversights and mistakes.

 

If it is indeed proven that there is a wilful disregard of certain safety standards, then I am sure the punishment will be heavy as well. However, wilful disregard does not directly means having an intention to kill ......it still comes back to human mistakes, lack of education/training, human fatigue, etc unless it is proven that he has an intention to kill through the act of wilful disregard. If a person does have an intention to kill through wilful disregard, then that's murder and will surely get death penalty anyway.

Edited January 25, 2019 by Icedbs

[Lightbringer]

Few thoughts of mine I wish to share for this sad incident:

 

1) Primary source of anger is the way MINDEF has controlled (or should I say tainted or oppressed) the flow of information from the very first day of the incident right up to the press conference. It is abundantly clear that MINDEF's priority has been damage control to their reputation in the public eye as well as their liabilities from a legal and governance standpoint.

 

2) Following 1, the deliberately obtuse and generic statements such as "serious injury" and "Corporal Pang was sufficient trained and well qualified" are all corporate speak for absolving liability and responsibility. Anybody involved in marcomms, corp comms or crisis comms will immediately recognize the specific goals which the statements released by MINDEF and their top people such as Ng Eng Hen and CDF/COA were meant to achieve.  Very precise phrasing and lines of inquiries all addressed in clinical statements.

 

3) It becomes very clear that from the very top down starting from the Minister, the entire no-blame honest-mistake machinery is kicking into high gear again. Very little real, genuine, honest empathy for the tragedy and the pain experienced by Aloy, family and loved ones.

 

4) About those who asks why should the heads or even the Minister be blamed - adding on to the excellent replies from the others, especially about how responsibilities rests at the top of the hierarchy even as work flows down the chain - this is because accountability at the very top creates a very real and strong incentive for chief executives and top decision-makers to plan for and prevent such tragedies from happening in the first place, which in turn would flow down the command structure and reduce the inherent risks (which everybody who served NS before would know about) in the environment. Create the right incentives and human behaviour naturally follows - this is basic corporate management which also applies to the armed forces.

 

5) the reverse also applies - create a no-blame honest-mistake lets-hint-its-the-fault-of-the-dead culture, and decision-makers will start prioritizing other KPIs such as training time, winning awards and accolades, achieving XXX or YYY, over more-boring KPIs such as safety, zero-death policy or simple welfare. It's human psychology and behaviour at play all over again. Yes, the Minister, CDF or COA did not directly cause the incident with their direct actions - but they certainly could have instituted top down changes that prevents these from happening in the first place. And the buck stops with them - when the top never get held responsibilities for any screw-ups, how do you expect field commanders or line officers to assume responsibility as well? And what do you think the higher remuneration and benefits for the top folks are for - it's certainly not just because of their capabilities, but also because of their heavier responsibilities!

 

6) very very sad incident. my heart aches. and for the kids here commenting on the motives of those who are grieving - please take your juvenile bulls**t over to Eat-drink-man-woman, because that's where you probably belong.

[Lightbringer]

Add-on: I also saw some posts asking what do we expect the CO to do if there are some bobo soldiers who screw-up.

 

I can very strongly, when the top always escape responsibilities for all manner of screw ups, what sort of messages you think that conveys to the entire command structure? Everybody with some sort of authority or command will simply pass the buck to the person below him! And what do you think happens?

 

Well, just open your eyes and observe history - the deceased are blamed for having allergies, making mistakes, deviating from SOPs, etc. Or an unfortunate fellow comrade or the direct superior gets the brunt of the blame and punishment for his direct role in the tragedy. Everybody else gets a slap on the wrists and goes on to live happily ever after.

 

This no-blame honest-mistake blame-the-dead-guy culture is a rot and cancer in any organisation in which it manifests. And in our case, it is a rot and cancer in the entire political structure ruling Singapore now - and yet the people still ask mind-numbing questions about what's the point of blaming the top people and punishing or removing them from office, what is it going to solve? 

 

Well, it's going to solve the exact same thing which the entire freaking criminal justice system has been set up to achieve: DETERRENCE AND MAKING AN EXAMPLE TO INCENTIVE DESIRED BEHAVIOUR.

 

Rapidly losing patience over this....

[Datsun366]

The enforcement of the summary execution in the military is not about individual injustice.

It's about discipline and that the SAF is not playing.

The SAF is a tool to make Singapore safe via violent means.

Those working in the SAF have to accept that their deaths are part of their job requirement. If they mess up and waste resources such as soldiers lives, whether deliberate anot they have to answer to Singapore. Regardless of what the current government thinks or wants.

BS aside, common sense... People obey power. To protect lives dominance is needed. Obviously something needs to be done to dominate the leadership in SAF to ensure repercussions are felt by highly paid soldiers who never have to be wounded or die?

How many of the stars since the wc have actual combat experience whereby they have to answer for lives lost?

 

The SCDF KOLAM case is another thing altogether.

 

This type of kuku death is very unacceptable. You may ask the speaker if his son died this way because others were fooling around and had no fear or respect for their commanders. What would he do? Privately sort it out? Anyone of their many commanders will do.

 

That's what the man on the moon knew and practised. Fierce but always mindful he is a sheepdog.

 

Be the sheepdog against feral dogs and wolves.

 

Smack the military leadership, regulars and NSman must pay if any of their men expire under their care.

 

What happens to lousy sheepdogs? You don't blame the shepherd. They lost out on their sheep.

 

Edited January 26, 2019 by Datsun366

[Showster]

Add-on: I also saw some posts asking what do we expect the CO to do if there are some bobo soldiers who screw-up.

 

I can very strongly, when the top always escape responsibilities for all manner of screw ups, what sort of messages you think that conveys to the entire command structure? Everybody with some sort of authority or command will simply pass the buck to the person below him! And what do you think happens?

 

Well, just open your eyes and observe history - the deceased are blamed for having allergies, making mistakes, deviating from SOPs, etc. Or an unfortunate fellow comrade or the direct superior gets the brunt of the blame and punishment for his direct role in the tragedy. Everybody else gets a slap on the wrists and goes on to live happily ever after.

 

This no-blame honest-mistake blame-the-dead-guy culture is a rot and cancer in any organisation in which it manifests. And in our case, it is a rot and cancer in the entire political structure ruling Singapore now - and yet the people still ask mind-numbing questions about what's the point of blaming the top people and punishing or removing them from office, what is it going to solve?

 

Well, it's going to solve the exact same thing which the entire freaking criminal justice system has been set up to achieve: DETERRENCE AND MAKING AN EXAMPLE TO INCENTIVE DESIRED BEHAVIOUR.

 

Rapidly losing patience over this....

Bro, which country, company or organisation (hundreds of thousands to millions of employees) show a positive example of this model?

 

There are also unannounced internal controls affecting leaders’ futures as well if serious lapses were found under their watch that they could have foreseen.

 

It’s hard enough to find one good man to lead. What makes us think we can swop and swop and swop to solve inherent issues involving the lives of millions for any screw ups?

 

I would rather take also a sensitive stance rather than an insensitive stance, since the wounds of everyone are fresh from the loss.

 

I have my own questions as well. Who designed the barrel of the howitzer in such a manner? Why was the last component protruding like that and can it be designed in a safer manner that allows at least standing space or a safety box area?

Edited January 26, 2019 by Showster

[Volvobrick]

in those days, I believe its the combination of tin sardines  + jam nanas + spiced pork cubes 

 

You left out the main culprit - baked beans!

[Kusje]

Can. The soldier become blur sotong at the wrong time and wrong place.....

Then this guy has always been on the ball, doing his work properly and suddenly made one screw up because of dunno what reason? Does he deserves to die for it?

 

 

I just saw the photo and read about the claim from army that there is usually enough space for someone to stand there.

 

My guess is that it means the space is just enough for a normie so fatties like my 165kg sifu will get crushed. Since the deceased looks thin, could it be possible that he was wearing his sbo?

Edited January 26, 2019 by Kusje

[Datsun366]

SBO this.

 

[Fcw75]

Actually I am just curious. I saw during the press conference by those paper generals on internet and tv, no reporters ask any question at all. Are they mute or are they censored out?

 

MINDEF is afraid of them not being able to answer questions?

 

Why no one ask them if they are implying that all the safety procedures are there but it’s Aloysius fault for standing there?

 

In US, the reporters will be bombarding those with questions.

Edited January 26, 2019 by Fcw75

[Beregond]

What i most tulan until now.

Is those closest to him when the accident happen is not allow to speak and give their view of the incident.

 

Obviously they scare some truth might hurt mindef.

In the end own backside still more important then any thing else

[Enye]

there is an obvious difference in opinions how the hand holding picture should be viewed

 

no need to hurl insults if your opinion is different from mine

 

my comment was there because someone posted a picture which i feel is insensitive to the person on his deathbed and the grieving family

 

this is the last post i have on that particular issue

 

 

[Wind30]

Kind of curious, everyone say many nsf die. How much of each incidents do u know and what changes was done after each incident?

 

https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/singapore/saf-training-death-gavin-chan-no-negligence-or-misconduct-10242480

 

https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/singapore/death-nsf-dave-lee-casualty-management-delayed-evacuation-10592976

 

https://www.straitstimes.com/politics/parliament-external-panel-to-review-policies-on-combat-vehicle-safety-in-saf-after-nsf

Edited January 26, 2019 by Wind30

[RogerNg_185295]

Actually I am just curious. I saw during the press conference by those paper generals on internet and tv, no reporters ask any question at all. Are they mute or are they censored out?

 

MINDEF is afraid of them not being able to answer questions?

 

Why no one ask them if they are implying that all the safety procedures are there but itâs Aloysius fault for standing there?

 

In US, the reporters will be bombarding those with questions.

This is Singapore and reporters are not supposed to ask too much. State controlled media

[Wind30]

Trying to read about Taiwan or Korea national service fatalities...

 

http://www.asianews.it/news-en/The-death-of-a-soldier-forces-Taipei-to-rethink-military-service-28670.html

 

This is what I found

[No_worries]

Actually I am just curious. I saw during the press conference by those paper generals on internet and tv, no reporters ask any question at all. Are they mute or are they censored out?

 

MINDEF is afraid of them not being able to answer questions?

 

Why no one ask them if they are implying that all the safety procedures are there but itâs Aloysius fault for standing there?

 

In US, the reporters will be bombarding those with questions.

The reporters are all from the state media. You would expect all questions from them to be civilised , restraint and measured .

 

You won’t want to sound too aggressive or else you will lose your job in the state media .