Cab companies could be allowed to bid for COEs

[yishunite]

Just curious, how come public buses such as SBS transit, SMRT, etc do not need to bid for Cat C COE for their fleet? Is it because they are 'public transport'? If so, then current system that Taxi, which is also 'public transport', being excluded from COE bidding is correct, no?

Buses can carry 30-80 people in the space occupied by 2 cars.

 

Taxi can carry 4-5 people in the space occupied by 1 car.

 

COE is about managing congestion. Do the math

[Octopus]

Buses can carry 30-80 people in the space occupied by 2 cars.

 

Taxi can carry 4-5 people in the space occupied by 1 car.

 

COE is about managing congestion. Do the math

 

 

I am asking how come Category C COE only for Private Buses such as Excursion Buses, Private Buses and Private Hire Buses, while Public Buses such as SBS Transit and SMRT are exempted, they do not need to bid for any COE.

If the reason is because Public Buses are considered "Public Transport", then current system where Taxi, which are also classified as "Public Transport" under LTA are exempted from COE bidding since Y2012 is correct.

Ref LTA definition of Public Transport: https://www.lta.gov.sg/content/ltaweb/en/public-transport.html

[yishunite]

I dont think the reason is merely that they are "public transport". Im pretty sure the reason is that public buses are net reducers of congestion serving a public need

[xul]

the problem in singapore is we just looked at the numbers. There are people who rely on cars because public transport doesn't serve their need. No matter how good the public transport is it will never cover all the needs. Pushing the COE to sky high will only affect the average joe, but for the rich it is just a number. Should driving be a privilege of the rich? Rich need the convenience of having a car, but the average people don't? Rich can have 3 or 4 cars in one household and yet the average people can't afford a basic b&b car. If the policy maker just focus on collecting more $, and ignore the sentiment of the people, it will backfire...

Everyone wants convenience. Roads cannot support everyone driving their own car. If money is not used to discourage people from driving then what else can? Of course I am also upset with high coe but what other solution is there for land scarce Singapore?

[Watwheels]

For me, I highly doubt LTA will allow cab companies to do their own bidding. I could be wrong.

The reason I say this is becos when it comes to public transport the authorities will want absolute control over it. If there are to be fierce competition or ppl get to manipulate the systems already in place...they will have none of it. Fierce competition may cause taxi drivers to start strikes like in Europe blocking all the major roads with their taxis causing the city to grind to a stop. My guess is LTA will do the usual of putting a cap to the taxis population and maybe tweak the current system a little. They will not allow such big changes.

 

They wont want any major changes upsetting the public transport which can potentially grind Sgp to a halt. They learn from last time the bus companies riots in the 50s. How much chaos it can cause to the island. That's why I say they would want absolute control over all aspects of the public transport system.

the problem in singapore is we just looked at the numbers. There are people who rely on cars because public transport doesn't serve their need. No matter how good the public transport is it will never cover all the needs. Pushing the COE to sky high will only affect the average joe, but for the rich it is just a number. Should driving be a privilege of the rich? Rich need the convenience of having a car, but the average people don't? Rich can have 3 or 4 cars in one household and yet the average people can't afford a basic b&b car.  If the policy maker just focus on collecting more $, and ignore the sentiment of the people, it will backfire... 

 

It's all about better management of your time when you have a car. You dont need to waste time waiting or calling or using a app. There's also the freedom whereby you just get into your car and go. If we were to be like depend on the public transport to do deliveries we will all be dead. LoL... Public transport isn't the solution to all the road problems. What is difficult is striking a balance with our limited roads.

[Lotr]

the problem in singapore is we just looked at the numbers. There are people who rely on cars because public transport doesn't serve their need. No matter how good the public transport is it will never cover all the needs. Pushing the COE to sky high will only affect the average joe, but for the rich it is just a number. Should driving be a privilege of the rich? Rich need the convenience of having a car, but the average people don't? Rich can have 3 or 4 cars in one household and yet the average people can't afford a basic b&b car. If the policy maker just focus on collecting more $, and ignore the sentiment of the people, it will backfire...

Yes, very true. All I can say is vote wisely.

[Heman75]

Buses can carry 30-80 people in the space occupied by 2 cars.

 

Taxi can carry 4-5 people in the space occupied by 1 car.

 

COE is about managing congestion. Do the math

well to be more specific . it is the coe quota that manage the congestion . it doesnt matter where you put the taxi . it is still the same effect on congestion . it is about the number of cars on the road and not number of ppl in the car . what makes you so sure taxi always carry 4 to 5 ? i take taxi too and always myself . 

[Mockngbrd]

the problem in singapore is we just looked at the numbers. There are people who rely on cars because public transport doesn't serve their need. No matter how good the public transport is it will never cover all the needs. Pushing the COE to sky high will only affect the average joe, but for the rich it is just a number. Should driving be a privilege of the rich? Rich need the convenience of having a car, but the average people don't? Rich can have 3 or 4 cars in one household and yet the average people can't afford a basic b&b car. If the policy maker just focus on collecting more $, and ignore the sentiment of the people, it will backfire...

Backfire how?

[yishunite]

well to be more specific . it is the coe quota that manage the congestion . it doesnt matter where you put the taxi . it is still the same effect on congestion . it is about the number of cars on the road and not number of ppl in the car . what makes you so sure taxi always carry 4 to 5 ? i take taxi too and always myself . 

Yes but that only bolster my argument since taxis are by far the greatest contributors to congestion. they are always on the road thruout the entire shift of a taxi driver. whereas we who own car go to work, park, come out for lunch (sometimes), go home, park, go out for dinner (sometimes).... far lower usage of the road than a taxi

 

So it is actually that taxis have been benefiting from paying lower tax relative to their contribution to congestion - inspite of being for profit-making use of the car - ever since COE came about

 

Consider the fact that many ppl who use a taxi to work and back every day - still can spend less than buying a car in terms of annual transport cost. Yet they contribute as much to congestion as a car owner. And the taxi they use twice a day continues to contribute congestion the rest of the day long. My point is private car owners pay way too much a share of the congestion tax compare to PHV and taxi

Edited May 16, 2019 by yishunite

[Heman75]

Yes but that only bolster my argument since taxis are by far the greatest contributors to congestion. they are always on the road thruout the entire shift of a taxi driver. whereas we who own car go to work, park, come out for lunch (sometimes), go home, park, go out for dinner (sometimes).... far lower usage of the road than a taxi

 

So it is actually that taxis have been benefiting from paying lower tax relative to their contribution to congestion - inspite of being for profit-making use of the car - ever since COE came about

 

Consider the fact that many ppl who use a taxi to work and back every day - still can spend less than buying a car in terms of annual transport cost. Yet they contribute as much to congestion as a car owner. And the taxi they use twice a day continues to contribute congestion the rest of the day long. My point is private car owners pay way too much a share of the congestion tax compare to PHV and taxi

Is ok. I dont think you got my point.

[minion]

Yes but that only bolster my argument since taxis are by far the greatest contributors to congestion. they are always on the road thruout the entire shift of a taxi driver. whereas we who own car go to work, park, come out for lunch (sometimes), go home, park, go out for dinner (sometimes).... far lower usage of the road than a taxi

 

So it is actually that taxis have been benefiting from paying lower tax relative to their contribution to congestion - inspite of being for profit-making use of the car - ever since COE came about

 

Consider the fact that many ppl who use a taxi to work and back every day - still can spend less than buying a car in terms of annual transport cost. Yet they contribute as much to congestion as a car owner. And the taxi they use twice a day continues to contribute congestion the rest of the day long. My point is private car owners pay way too much a share of the congestion tax compare to PHV and taxi

 

no. it's the other way round. private cars contribute far more to congestion than taxis.

taxis run all day long but jam occurs during peak hours proof exactly they DON'T contribute most to congestion, otherwise the congestion should be all day long or the jam will be random. The reason why we have consistent peak hours is because private cars congest the road.

 

just open your eyes and take a quick glance when the traffic is slow, the vehicle population that jams the road together consists of private cars as majority and taxis as minority.

Among hundreds of cars in any stretch of peak hour jam, we will always see more private cars than anything else.

[yishunite]

no. it's the other way round. private cars contribute far more to congestion than taxis.

taxis run all day long but jam occurs during peak hours proof exactly they DON'T contribute most to congestion, otherwise the congestion should be all day long or the jam will be random. The reason why we have consistent peak hours is because private cars congest the road.

 

just open your eyes and take a quick glance when the traffic is slow, the vehicle population that jams the road together consists of private cars as majority and taxis as minority.

Among hundreds of cars in any stretch of peak hour jam, we will always see more private cars than anything else.

No, I am talking abt individual car vs individual taxi (we are talking about COE here, which assign to one unit of car or taxi). Yes, total taxi quota is less than total of private cars, and all the private cars come out at the same time, 8-9am and 6-8pm or so. But the rest of the day they contribute nothing to congestion. But taxis contribute all day long everyday including weekends. An individual car vs an individual taxi: Which on the road more? So COE should be calculated closer to this ratio

 

The COE is for your overall contribution to congestion for a year, not during 8-9am and 6-8pm. Thats ERP that taxes this. A single taxi contributes far more volume on the road when averaged out than a single car. Both take one COE to be allocated

Edited May 16, 2019 by yishunite

[Bigtoe]

Everyone wants convenience. Roads cannot support everyone driving their own car. If money is not used to discourage people from driving then what else can? Of course I am also upset with high coe but what other solution is there for land scarce Singapore?

Simple.

 

Lucky draw every month. Household gets lucky draw can buy only 1 car and use that car for 5 years. After 5 years if still want car, lucky draw again.

 

Build more underground roads.

[Mann123]

Yes but that only bolster my argument since taxis are by far the greatest contributors to congestion. they are always on the road thruout the entire shift of a taxi driver. whereas we who own car go to work, park, come out for lunch (sometimes), go home, park, go out for dinner (sometimes).... far lower usage of the road than a taxi

 

So it is actually that taxis have been benefiting from paying lower tax relative to their contribution to congestion - inspite of being for profit-making use of the car - ever since COE came about

 

Consider the fact that many ppl who use a taxi to work and back every day - still can spend less than buying a car in terms of annual transport cost. Yet they contribute as much to congestion as a car owner. And the taxi they use twice a day continues to contribute congestion the rest of the day long. My point is private car owners pay way too much a share of the congestion tax compare to PHV and taxi

 

Your point seems reasonable however if LTA put higher tax on taxis then who will pay for additional taxes..  Public right ?

 

Then its back to square 1 

 

Wonder how new satellite based ERP will work for taxis and PHV 

Edited May 16, 2019 by Mann123

[Octopus]

No, I am talking abt individual car vs individual taxi (we are talking about COE here, which assign to one unit of car or taxi). Yes, total taxi quota is less than total of private cars, and all the private cars come out at the same time, 8-9am and 6-8pm or so. But the rest of the day they contribute nothing to congestion. But taxis contribute all day long everyday including weekends. An individual car vs an individual taxi: Which on the road more? So COE should be calculated closer to this ratio

 

The COE is for your overall contribution to congestion for a year, not during 8-9am and 6-8pm. Thats ERP that taxes this. A single taxi contributes far more volume on the road when averaged out than a single car. Both take one COE to be allocated

 

Basically I agree what you said, but you can also consider congestion = emission pollution. Basically the more time a vehicle spend on the road it create more emission pollution to the environment, and our COE system can be better tuned to focus on the amount of emission instead of vehicle capacity such as Cat A and Cat B. Nowadays bigger cars with better tech such as hybrid engine may create less pollution than smaller engine cars of older tech. But instead they came out with another "tax" which is the VES....

 

Motorcycle which does not have catalytic converter despite smaller engine capacity create much more air pollution than cars. Especially those Malaysia motorcycle, our government should look into it in the name of better environment, cleaner air.

[minion]

all the private cars come out at the same time, 8-9am and 6-8pm or so. But the rest of the day they contribute nothing to congestion.

 

the rest of the day there is no consistent congestion in the first place mah.

 

[yishunite]

the rest of the day there is no consistent congestion in the first place mah.

 

Its called a COE. Not COETDDPH (certificate of entitlement to drive during peak hours)

[Binatan]

Basically I agree what you said, but you can also consider congestion = emission pollution. Basically the more time a vehicle spend on the road it create more emission pollution to the environment, and our COE system can be better tuned to focus on the amount of emission instead of vehicle capacity such as Cat A and Cat B. Nowadays bigger cars with better tech such as hybrid engine may create less pollution than smaller engine cars of older tech. But instead they came out with another "tax" which is the VES....

 

Motorcycle which does not have catalytic converter despite smaller engine capacity create much more air pollution than cars. Especially those Malaysia motorcycle, our government should look into it in the name of better environment, cleaner air.

Not only M’sian Motorcycle, the trucks are emitting black smoke too. And those black tinted M’sian cars are everywhere too, and you will only see LTA enforcer stopping/booking SG cars/trucks for non-compliance but not M’sian vehicles. Is this some kind of double standard? We got penalized in our own land but the M’sian vehicles get away with it?