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kobayashiGT

How do you put out a lithium-ion battery fire from a PMD.

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So since this topic is here to stay, I think instead of debating who is right and wrong, I think we should be prepared if there is something bad happening around us. I used to be from the Navy so I have learned some basic fire-fighting knowledge. I never fight a real fire before, luckily. So all the stuff I mention is from my understanding and with the help from google.

At least 34 cases of PMD-related fires this year.

There have been at least 34 cases of fires involving personal mobility devices (PMDs) so far this year, with two incidents over the last two days.
Read more at https://www.todayonline.com/singapore/least-34-cases-fire-involving-pmds-year

It is believed that lithium-ion battery fires are some of the most difficult fires to suppress. You can see the video here. and for a small lithium-ion battery, it can already cause such big damage, imagine you have like 10kg worth of lithium-ion battery.

 

How to extinguish a lithium-ion battery?

To prevent me from "oversteer", let's dive straight to the topic. Despite their name, lithium-ion batteries used in consumer products do not contain any actual lithium metal. For lithium fires, only a CLASS D COPPER POWDER EXTINGUISHER is recommended. The minimum equipment required includes eye-protection, respirator, rubber gloves, etc. If other combustibles nearby catch fire as well as a result of the lithium fire, then we need to use appropriate extinguishing agents to douse the secondary fires. Needless to mention, it is important to address each type of fire with the appropriate extinguishing.

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So as you can see from the chart, Class D fire is to tackle combustible metal.

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It is very expensive to actually keep a class D fire extinguishers at home compared to the dry powder extinguishers.

So is there any other way to put out class D fire?

since Li-ion contains very little lithium metal that reacts with water. Water also cools the adjacent area and prevents the fire from spreading. Research laboratories and factories also use water to extinguish Li-ion battery fires. But I think this part is subjective. If there is smoke from the lithium-ion battery or there is an initial flame, I think water will be useful if it has already ignited, I don't think it will help. @carbon82 can help me with this. haha.

Should I get one Class D fire extinguishers?

Some of you might not have bought a fire extinguisher before.  A normal dry powder ABC extinguisher is about $25 at lazada.

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So who will want to buy $620 dollar of extinguisher and stand by? If our government can invest 7 million on the return scheme of PMD, I think they should consider having extinguisher mounted at all HDB staircase or something. 

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And I think it is good that maybe whoever is buying and registering a PMD, they need to go through a 1-hour fire fighting session or something. If they carry the risk, they must minimize the risk too. make the buying process a bit more troublesome, so those young punk will find it a hassle to own one.

That's my thoughts. I never win TOTM before thou. 🤣🤣🤣

 

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Ask SCDF what they use.

They should have plenty of experience.

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8 minutes ago, Kb27 said:

Ask SCDF what they use.

They should have plenty of experience.

I am sure they have a lot of experience. But they need to fight traffic to reach the fire scene. When they reach I think they are only resposible for evacuating the residents.

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All PMD should be equip with the appropriate fire extinguisher. The owner is liable to maintain both the PMD and the extinguisher. 

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32 minutes ago, Ichibawa said:

All PMD should be equip with the appropriate fire extinguisher. The owner is liable to maintain both the PMD and the extinguisher. 

Good idea.

Maybe also add first aid box and mobile defibrillator as compulsory.

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3 hours ago, RadX said:

Throw the owner in it

you like to eat roasted cockroaches is it

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@kobayashiGT here I come. I will try to keep it short.

I said the exact same thing to a few of SCDF officers recently during a public seminar:
"It is very WRONG to encourage the general public to fight lithium-ion (Li-ion) batteries fire using a fire extinguisher. The CORRECT advice should be: Get away from the burning batteries as far as possible (10 meter min.)."

If you have watched videos of PMD fire, it should not be hard for you to figure out why. One unique characteristic of Li-ion batteries is that it will continue to burn by itself until there's nothing left due to Thermal Runaway.

Thermal runaway of a lithium-ion battery initiates an unstoppable chain reaction. The temperature will rise rapidly within milliseconds causing energy stored in the battery to be released suddenly. When the temperatures reaches ~400°C, battery goes into gaseous state, and a fire (can hardly be extinguished by conventional means) will erupt. The risk of thermal runaway begins at a temperature of ~60°C and becomes extremely critical at 100°C.

Class D fire extinguisher is useful for fighting metal fire (e.g. pure lithium, magnesium, potassium, titanium, etc.) but less effective for compound material (e.g. Li-ion batteries). The old belief is that Li-ion contain certain % of pure lithium, thus cannot use water to extinguish it. But over the year, this belief has been overturned with more research.

In fact in my previous workplace, I convinced my COO and Directors to have all class D extinguisher replaced with water extinguisher (and water tank), as the most effective way to stop a batteries fire is to cool it down (to below the thermal runaway temperature).[cool]

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2 hours ago, Carbon82 said:

@kobayashiGT here I come. I will try to keep it short.

I said the exact same thing to a few of SCDF officers recently during a public seminar:
"It is very WRONG to encourage the general public to fight lithium-ion (Li-ion) batteries fire using a fire extinguisher. The CORRECT advice should be: Get away from the burning batteries as far as possible (10 meter min.)."

If you have watched videos of PMD fire, it should not be hard for you to figure out why. One unique characteristic of Li-ion batteries is that it will continue to burn by itself until there's nothing left due to Thermal Runaway.

Thermal runaway of a lithium-ion battery initiates an unstoppable chain reaction. The temperature will rise rapidly within milliseconds causing energy stored in the battery to be released suddenly. When the temperatures reaches ~400°C, battery goes into gaseous state, and a fire (can hardly be extinguished by conventional means) will erupt. The risk of thermal runaway begins at a temperature of ~60°C and becomes extremely critical at 100°C.

Class D fire extinguisher is useful for fighting metal fire (e.g. pure lithium, magnesium, potassium, titanium, etc.) but less effective for compound material (e.g. Li-ion batteries). The old belief is that Li-ion contain certain % of pure lithium, thus cannot use water to extinguish it. But over the year, this belief has been overturned with more research.

In fact in my previous workplace, I convinced my COO and Directors to have all class D extinguisher replaced with water extinguisher (and water tank), as the most effective way to stop a batteries fire is to cool it down (to below the thermal runaway temperature).[cool]

MCF fire safety expert have spoken.

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I keep bottles of water and a small pressurized sprayer nearby because I cannot find a water extinguisher. 😄

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Aiya, just take your saf helmet and cover over the battery, then put your body over the helmet.

Ppl will call you hero. 😂

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The best way is to charge lithium batteries in an open area away from an combustible items or in a combustion proof container. Also use a proper charger that will monitor the charging process.

 

Take note that powder extinguisher will cause a mess when used. So is foam and water extinguisher. The best is CO2 extinguisher, no mess.

 

I have experienced countless lithium battery explosions when running my r/c. I find the best way is to let the lithium battery to just burn itself off.

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10 hours ago, Kklee said:

I keep bottles of water and a small pressurized sprayer nearby because I cannot find a water extinguisher. 😄

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:D:D

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13 hours ago, Carbon82 said:

@kobayashiGT here I come. I will try to keep it short.

I said the exact same thing to a few of SCDF officers recently during a public seminar:
"It is very WRONG to encourage the general public to fight lithium-ion (Li-ion) batteries fire using a fire extinguisher. The CORRECT advice should be: Get away from the burning batteries as far as possible (10 meter min.)."

If you have watched videos of PMD fire, it should not be hard for you to figure out why. One unique characteristic of Li-ion batteries is that it will continue to burn by itself until there's nothing left due to Thermal Runaway.

Thermal runaway of a lithium-ion battery initiates an unstoppable chain reaction. The temperature will rise rapidly within milliseconds causing energy stored in the battery to be released suddenly. When the temperatures reaches ~400°C, battery goes into gaseous state, and a fire (can hardly be extinguished by conventional means) will erupt. The risk of thermal runaway begins at a temperature of ~60°C and becomes extremely critical at 100°C.

Class D fire extinguisher is useful for fighting metal fire (e.g. pure lithium, magnesium, potassium, titanium, etc.) but less effective for compound material (e.g. Li-ion batteries). The old belief is that Li-ion contain certain % of pure lithium, thus cannot use water to extinguish it. But over the year, this belief has been overturned with more research.

In fact in my previous workplace, I convinced my COO and Directors to have all class D extinguisher replaced with water extinguisher (and water tank), as the most effective way to stop a batteries fire is to cool it down (to below the thermal runaway temperature).[cool]

Seems like it is better to keep a fire blanket at home too. Can at least protect yourself when running away from fire.

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40 minutes ago, Watwheels said:

Aiya, just take your saf helmet and cover over the battery, then put your body over the helmet.

Ppl will call you hero. 😂

image-55271-860_poster_16x9-abcd-55271.j

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1 minute ago, kobayashiGT said:

Seems like it is better to keep a fire blanket at home too. Can at least protect yourself when running away from fire.

th?id=OIP.uE0UwbW0Uf3bMNEDNtLNdwHaHa%26p

Also depends on location of where u keep it.

If whole living room on fire and the fire blanket is there, you also cannot retrieve it.:XD:

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