How to enforce the law for PMDS?

[inlinesix]

1 minute ago, Ender said:

Riding pmd got gait meh?  If they walk with their pmd, means they are obeying the law liao. 

Everyone ride/walk differently. With big data analytic, confirm can find

[Fitvip]

3 hours ago, VteckiCk said:

pretty strange isn't it

when we speed on the road or have certain illegal mods on our cars

see a tp on the road, get asked to pull over

and so we do, we signal, and we pull over where and when it's safe on the shoulder

and then we wait for our summon letter to reach us

however, if we don't pull over, what happens then?

we drive off, we speed off, we try to evade the tp

what happens?

tp chase. tp chase because we don't stop, why don't stop? got drugs? no license? something illegal inside the car? got gun? no one knows

we run, tp chase, tp call for back up

and then it's all out gotta catch us no matter what

now, isn't it same for pmd?

you get asked to stop because you were doing something illegal

but you don't. you run, enforcer chase, you continue to run

but enforcers are on foot. how? outrun your illegally modded pmd?

i think if we wanna mod our cars, slap on illegal exhaust, tinted windows, or some even tamper with fuel gauge so can go in jb pump petrol at reserve, we are all prepared to pay the fine, it comes with the risk isn't it

and if you run, people will chase

just like if you see a dog, don't run, because the dog will chase you

🙄

When a law breaker tries to get away, the law enforcer has to apprehend him by any means. When the offender does not submit himself to the officer by words or action, the officer can use necessary force to effect the arrest! 

Even the ICA have built mechanical barriers (claws) to prevent any vehicles from getting away!

It will be a sad day for Singapore's law and order if the officer were to be penalised!

Edited December 12, 2019 by Fitvip

[Shibadog]

1 hour ago, Ender said:

But even we speed, and got caught, speeding away from enforcer is the last thing on our mind. And that is the point on why some of us feel for a need for drastic actions. It a signal to offenders successful escape from the law has a very favorable odds. 

 agreed. But why don't we speed off if get caught? can't be because we are law-abiding right?

I think it's because we know if we speed n get caught, there's no point in running away because on top of committing another offence, there's a high likelihood of getting caught eventually due to licence plates + cameras.

if we were running with no plates or fake plates and there's a good chance to not be caught ever by camera or road block etc, then will these drivers still stop when asked to by TP?

that's the quandary with managing pmd users. How to identify those errant buggers if they zhao? they know they can outrun the LTA enforcers with little/no chance of getting caught later.

is drastic action used to stop them due to the severity of their offence? or due to the difficulty in catching them later?

 

at the end of the day, I think it's best to blame LTA for not pre-empting the mentality of pmd users in SG and for not taking the necessary steps in a timely manner to mitigate the frequency and results of selfish, anti-social behaviour by some pmd users.

[Whitemorning]

4 hours ago, Ganwb79 said:

The "kick" is akin to a push but using the leg. The rider didn't go flying off his PMD the moment contact was made, he lost his balance. If you are so inclined, even if the officer had used his hand to push as you wished, you would have called it a "punch" 

Agreed with ur point, that a kick is akin to a push. But the key difference is the force delivered by the officer and the impact to the rider’s body. 

Another key factor to consider is the officer’s true intention. If he just wanted to take down the PMD, is kicking the only option? By kicking, my take is his real intention could be more than that (just my gut feel). We have heard or seen drivers evade police roadblocks but I don’t believe police will use their patrol cars to ram the offender to make him stop. Bcoz it’s just too risky n putting lives at stake. 

Also, no one can tell the extent of injuries that can be inflicted by the kick or the fall (I think even the officer wouldn’t know). Assuming the rider had died (touch wood), anyone still feels that the officer’s actions were justified or appropriate? 

Like another bro said, the authorities should take a big blame for the current PMD situation. A serious lack of oversight n timely remedial actions.

[Carbon82]

What's wrong with kicking? Even our 4th PM (in waiting) HSK does it... 

[Angcheek]

5 hours ago, Carbon82 said:

Face recognition? The highly efficient HWZ CSI team cannot even find out who is this guy after a month, so can some technical expert share with us commoner how does face recognition works in this case?

And I couldn't agree more with your last statement! (and I thought CASE was the only toothless tiger here)

 

 

 hahha ......  

Edited December 12, 2019 by Angcheek

[Celicar]

3 hours ago, JohnSHL said:

 agreed. But why don't we speed off if get caught? can't be because we are law-abiding right?

I think it's because we know if we speed n get caught, there's no point in running away because on top of committing another offence, there's a high likelihood of getting caught eventually due to licence plates + cameras.

if we were running with no plates or fake plates and there's a good chance to not be caught ever by camera or road block etc, then will these drivers still stop when asked to by TP?

that's the quandary with managing pmd users. How to identify those errant buggers if they zhao? they know they can outrun the LTA enforcers with little/no chance of getting caught later.

is drastic action used to stop them due to the severity of their offence? or due to the difficulty in catching them later?

 

at the end of the day, I think it's best to blame LTA for not pre-empting the mentality of pmd users in SG and for not taking the necessary steps in a timely manner to mitigate the frequency and results of selfish, anti-social behaviour by some pmd users.

Why is there a need to talk about hypothetical situations? Just ask yourself, if you were on a PMD just like the rider who got kicked and you were over the speed limit and were asked to stop, would you have stopped or would you have attempted to speed off like that guy who got the boot?

[Hamburger]

After the dust has settled, so is my thought.

 

Using leg to kick is wrong. Should have gotten a baseball bat and whack, is also safer for the officers executing their duty.

 

Some had commented that the rider was not an hard-core criminal that deserved such treatment,. So my question is, how could one distinguish a fugitive at large, just because he was not driving ???

 

 

 

 

[Shibadog]

17 minutes ago, Celicar said:

Why is there a need to talk about hypothetical situations? Just ask yourself, if you were on a PMD just like the rider who got kicked and you were over the speed limit and were asked to stop, would you have stopped or would you have attempted to speed off like that guy who got the boot?

mine are not hypothetical qns cos there are people using fake plates. See the bukit batok thread. See the bmw thread. See the msia clone car news.

your qns is hypothetical as I don't own nor use pmd. Well, except for my own two legs.

[Ct3833]

8 hours ago, RadX said:

our force here no testicles...

 

that cisco guy shd be given a medal

Everything dare not to do, must follow procedures,  afraid of getting complaints,  procrastinate, the state of PMD problem today speaks volume about their inability.

[Shibadog]

13 minutes ago, Hamburger said:

After the dust has settled, so is my thought.

 

Using leg to kick is wrong. Should have gotten a baseball bat and whack, is also safer for the officers executing their duty.

 

Some had commented that the rider was not an hard-core criminal that deserved such treatment,. So my question is, how could one distinguish a fugitive at large, just because he was not driving ???

 

yes LTA/cisco need to revise their ROE and issue baseball bats and/or bamboo poles to their enforcement teams n announce loud loud to deter pmd fm trying to zoom past.

If this fails, issue firearms n announce free-to-fire.

 

so this particular pmd rider tried to siam but failed due to the cisco guy going above the call of duty and risking his own limbs to stop him. Did the subsequent investigation find that he was involved in a serious crime or a fugitive?

[Yewheng]

3 hours ago, JohnSHL said:

 agreed. But why don't we speed off if get caught? can't be because we are law-abiding right?

I think it's because we know if we speed n get caught, there's no point in running away because on top of committing another offence, there's a high likelihood of getting caught eventually due to licence plates + cameras.

if we were running with no plates or fake plates and there's a good chance to not be caught ever by camera or road block etc, then will these drivers still stop when asked to by TP?

that's the quandary with managing pmd users. How to identify those errant buggers if they zhao? they know they can outrun the LTA enforcers with little/no chance of getting caught later.

is drastic action used to stop them due to the severity of their offence? or due to the difficulty in catching them later?

 

at the end of the day, I think it's best to blame LTA for not pre-empting the mentality of pmd users in SG and for not taking the necessary steps in a timely manner to mitigate the frequency and results of selfish, anti-social behaviour by some pmd users.

Ya.. So true.. I think it is the difficulty of catching them later that resulted in cisco officer that made a split decision to use kick to get the pmd rider off the ride. 

[Mkl22]

10 hours ago, Watwheels said:

Really facepalm on what LTA is doing. They deploy the enforcement officers but never train them properly. Now police investigation on this incident. The enforcement officers are not even equipped with cameras and they are on foot vs pmds. Still got cheek to say use facial recognition. Face recognised liao, what's next? Wait for police to go ask person to person, go door to door, "have you seen this si ginnah?". Wait until when? Waste of police resources isnt it? Become police go after errant pmd riders? Then what is the enforcement for?

Really wayang.

When the si ginnah realise all they have to do is wear a cap and wear face mask, what is LTA going to do then? Recognise their butt is it?

useless LTA again.

[Celicar]

18 minutes ago, JohnSHL said:

mine are not hypothetical qns cos there are people using fake plates. See the bukit batok thread. See the bmw thread. See the msia clone car news.

your qns is hypothetical as I don't own nor use pmd. Well, except for my own two legs.

That is just a premise.

Using that as the premise, your question was:

"If we were running with no plates or fake plates and there's a good chance to not be caught ever by camera or road block etc, then will these drivers still stop when asked to by TP?"

So forget about what if there is a good chance to not be caught ever by camera or road block. Now we have an actual situation which happened. If you were the rider, would you have stopped at the first asking, or would you have sped off like the guy who now have the scars to show for it?

[Whitemorning]

I think the reasonable assumption should be anyone is innocent until proven guilty, unless there is reliable intel or clear indication to prove otherwise. From the video, I really can’t tell whether the rider was a potential terrorist, a drug trafficker or someone who just wanted to avoid enforcement actions. 

Secondly, if the general public condones law enforcers to behave like “cowboys”, this could potentially cause some people to follow suit. Since law enforcers need not follow rules n procedures, why can’t the public do the same? Civilian cowboys can be anywhere anytime, but enforcement cowboys can’t be everywhere everytime. Is this the kind of society that we want?

This is why our law enforcement officers r always reminded to be mindful of their professional conduct, esp when they r in uniforms n official duties.

End of the day, if everyone (be it irresponsible or law abiding PMD users, cyclists, drivers, pedestrians) can show more kindness n graciousness to one another, our community can definitely be a better place. 

This incident (n discussion) had surely provided many valuable lessons to be learnt for many of us. Hope there won’t be a repeat of such undesirable cases. 

Cheers n drive safe 😊

[Windwaver]

5 hours ago, Fitvip said:

When a law breaker tries to get away, the law enforcer has to apprehend him by any means. When the offender does not submit himself to the officer by words or action, the officer can use necessary force to effect the arrest! 

Even the ICA have built mechanical barriers (claws) to prevent any vehicles from getting away!

It will be a sad day for Singapore's law and order if the officer were to be penalised!

PMD has just shown to be the KING of roads, even more powerful than CARS!

https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/singapore/certis-cisco-officer-kicks-pmd-rider-lta-suspended-bedok-12176312

Certis CISCO officer suspended from active duty after kicking PMD rider off road

SINGAPORE: A Certis CISCO auxiliary police officer has been suspended from active duty after he kicked a personal mobility device (PMD) rider off the road in Bedok on Tuesday (Dec 10).

The incident was caught on video, which showed an officer dashing across a pedestrian crossing towards a PMD rider who is speeding on the road on the left-most lane.

As the rider nears the traffic junction, the officer kicks the man on his side. The force of the kick sends the rider bouncing off the kerb and onto the pavement.

RIDER IGNORED OFFICERS, TOOK 'EVASIVE ACTION'

PMDs are not allowed on roads and expressways.

The Land Transport Authority in 2016 launched a team of Active Mobility Enforcement Officers (AMEOs) who patrol public paths and take action against users who violate rules and regulations.

A team of AMEOs and Certis CISCO auxiliary police officers (APOs) were conducting enforcement duties along Bedok Reservoir Road at about 6.40pm on Tuesday when they spotted a PMD user riding on the road near the junction at Bedok North Avenue 3, an LTA spokesperson said in response to queries on Wednesday.

"When signalled by the APOs to stop, the rider took evasive action. He was subsequently stopped by another APO stationed at the next junction," she said.

Certis is contracted by LTA to carry out enforcement, the spokesperson added.

RIDER IN DANGER OF CAUSING SERIOUS INJURIES TO HIMSELF AND OTHERS

According to a Certis spokesperson, the man had ignored "repeated instructions" from the APOs to stop.

He was riding on the road at a high speed and could cause serious injuries to members of the public or himself, said Certis in response to queries.

"A Certis CISCO officer who was stationed at the next junction resorted to kicking his device when the rider refused to stop," said the spokesperson.

The rider suffered abrasions on his right elbow and right knee and received medical attention from paramedics at the scene.

The officer was also injured and was treated on site before heading to the hospital for further assistance.

According to "established enforcement protocols", officers are required to note down the appearance of an "escaping PMD user" as accurately as possible and then lodge a report with LTA, said Certis' spokesperson.

"Certis has a zero-tolerance policy against rash acts and will not hesitate to take stern action against officers who are found to be in breach of protocol," she said.

Certis will conduct a disciplinary inquiry into the incident, the spokesperson said, adding that it is providing full assistance to police investigations.

The incident is being looked into by LTA, Certis and the police. The Singapore Police Force confirmed it was investigating the incident.

"LTA does not condone any behaviour that deviates from the established rules of engagement," the authority said.

The transport authority said on Wednesday it is also investigating the PMD rider for offences including riding an unregistered and non-compliant PMD on public roads and failing to stop when required by an officer.

RIDER'S PMD WEIGHED MORE THAN 30KG

The rider's PMD, which weighed 30.54kg, has been impounded, the spokesperson added.

The Singapore Civil Defence Force (SCDF) said that it was alerted to the incident at about 6.55pm on Tuesday and that a man was taken to Changi General Hospital.

E-scooters have been banned from footpaths since Nov 5, with offenders facing fines of up to S$2,000 and jail time of up to three months once the ban is strictly enforced from 2020.
 

 

Sell your car, all buy PMDs  

[1fast1]

I see so many of these idiots out there on the roads, all with masks on. Not even a whiff of haze in the air. No flu or SARS epidemic. Tell me - what are they trying to do except escape punishment for flouting the law? 

Seems if you don't have visible registration, you can get away with anything. Maybe we should lose all our licence plates too? 🙄

[Windwaver]

10 hours ago, RadX said:

our force here no testicles...

 

that cisco guy shd be given a medal

I don't care what people say but this officer is MY HERO.

Just not too long ago, my family was walking on the pedestrian pathway and this ah-lian with daughter on PMD zoomed past us and gave us that 'what can you do to us' look when it's already illegal by law.

I really think this officer should be promoted and if the opposition talk about this particular incident during rally, it'll be very interesting to know that officers can get suspended when doing their job! 

It shows badly on how upper management has LOST TOUCH with the ground.

Edited December 12, 2019 by Windwaver