Full Totalitarian State - Xinjiang

[Lala81]

Well to subsume another distinctly different tribe into your country is usually not a pretty affair. 

[Lala81]

Well to subsume another distinctly different tribe into your country is usually not a pretty affair. 

[Victor68]

8 hours ago, t0y0ta said:

Traditional China empire (Han, Song, Tang, Ming etc) did not rule over places like Tibet and Mongolia, instead they were treated as barbaric lands to be kept in check and mostly as vassal states who had to pledge loyalty to the Chinese emperor and send regular tribute.

The manchurians expanded the boundaries of their Qing empire to include the current northern provinces such as Heilongjiang, Liaoning which are the home of the manchus (descended from Jurchen; Khitans)  as well as the north-west (Mongolian plains - which one of the Qing emperor renamed as "Xin Jiang" - New Border) and also the western region of Tibet, although it was a looser tributary relationship and formal annexation was during the PRC period.

So the current geographically HUGE china is really a direct result of the Qing empire joining up all the conquered lands and very surprisingly holding on to it through the chaos of the Taiping rebellion, the 8army foreign invasion, the 1911 revolution and the 1940s civil war.

Not much difference from the formation of USA which is history.  Why the spliting up of a country is always focus away from the west? N ireland, Quebec, Falkland, etc no stirring? Someone here says freedom, Iraq was 'liberalised' and a ruin today thanks to who? Who supply and supported all the fighting? Why don't they focus on south africa or Sahara desert? 

[inlinesix]

8 hours ago, Lala81 said:

My parents went the few weeks before the Chinese annual Congress political meetings. So heightened security.

Checkpoints especially outside the city. Checkpoints mean all passengers disembark. Individual Id check plus they go through the bus. Stand around 30 mins waiting for clearance. Few times during their trip. 

The security check alone for the flight there took a long while according to them. Unpack every single thing from your luggage and go through with 公安。like ndp bomb check. 

Dont think u can take hsr then or its cheaper to fly.

For a few years, my parents travelled within China via their own domestic tour agencies. They will fly into shanghai or gz and travel with domestic tour agencies cos its cheaper and they find it more interesting. Only later years then they just go with chan brothers or SA. 

U can't do that for xinjiang BTW. Cos they tried.

Well all these are maybe 4 years back. 

This is 1,000% worst than security checks in Beijing during important days.

[Lala81]

24 minutes ago, inlinesix said:

This is 1,000% worst than security checks in Beijing during important days.

I don't mind. More security for my parents. Lol.

They wanted to travel there on-off for many years. Then major unrest in 2009, cannot go for few years. 
One year, they flew into shanghai wanting to try that domestic tour agency method, but told by tour operator not possible. 
Cos the usual places they been to liao, so usually they go the less traveled locales.  
Some years in singapore is book the tour then wait for enough pax to cheng2 tuan2. Sometimes cancel due to boh lang. 

Haha don't think my dad is big fan of sun wukong. Dunno why want to go there and see this. 
https://www.travelchinaguide.com/attraction/xinjiang/turpan/mt_flaming.htm

[inlinesix]

3 minutes ago, Lala81 said:

I don't mind. More security for my parents. Lol.

They wanted to travel there on-off for many years. Then major unrest in 2009, cannot go for few years. 
One year, they flew into shanghai wanting to try that domestic tour agency method, but told by tour operator not possible. 
Cos the usual places they been to liao, so usually they go the less traveled locales.  
Some years in singapore is book the tour then wait for enough pax to cheng2 tuan2. Sometimes cancel due to boh lang. 

Haha don't think my dad is big fan of sun wukong. Dunno why want to go there and see this. 
https://www.travelchinaguide.com/attraction/xinjiang/turpan/mt_flaming.htm

Tibet is another location not ez to get into in term of permits.

Not free and easy trip for foreigners

[ToyotaShuttle]

18 hours ago, Watwheels said:

If Singapore is your home, will you leave?

What I dont like is the authoritarian rule, why should I leave? I should make the ruler leave, not I leave my home what.

Leaving are for quitters. 

Actually yes, I will leave if I can find somewhere better. Why not?

My great grandfather was a leaver when he abandoned China for British Malaysia and then Singapore. My grandfather and father have lived in Singapore their entire lives but that doesn't mean I and my desendents have to right? If things get bad enough (or you get rich enough) then you should absolutely make plans to leave. BTW, the world is getting so interconnected now so you don't have to be held hostage by your friends and family being in Singapore.

Leaving is for quitters but nothing wrong with being a quitter lah.

[t0y0ta]

There are 2 distinct narratives at play here.

The Western narrative is that China is colonial master and there are atrocities and police state in the Western provinces. The evidence they usually pull out are pictures of the smiley Dalai Lama, and murmurings of uigher camps. Their narrative dominates the Rest Of World thanks to their control of mass media.

The Chinese narrative is that these lands, esp Tibet under the religious rule had subjected to general population to serfdom and a miserable existence. China has brought prosperity and real development and also the non-Han minority citizens are accorded higher legal status in their system.

Having read both sides, I suspect the truth is somewhere in the middle.

 

[Lala81]

5 minutes ago, inlinesix said:

Tibet is another location not ez to get into in term of permits.

Not free and easy trip for foreigners

My parents went Tibet. They said it's the worst trip ever in terms of physical discomfort. Akin to a pilgrimage.

They went via Qinghai to acclimatize. But i think too short duration cos of the limited duration of the tour. 
They took several nights to be able to sleep through the night. 

But struck off from bucket list 

[Lala81]

2 minutes ago, t0y0ta said:

There are 2 distinct narratives at play here.

The Western narrative is that China is colonial master and there are atrocities and police state in the Western provinces. The evidence they usually pull out are pictures of the smiley Dalai Lama, and murmurings of uigher camps. Their narrative dominates the Rest Of World thanks to their control of mass media.

The Chinese narrative is that these lands, esp Tibet under the religious rule had subjected to general population to serfdom and a miserable existence. China has brought prosperity and real development and also the non-Han minority citizens are accorded higher legal status in their system.

Having read both sides, I suspect the truth is somewhere in the middle.

 

It will take several generations before history can say it's a "success" (integration into Han Society) or "failure" (inflamming the separatist movement more).

Anyway it's not like the Uighurs can vote.  
Allegedly they aren't even allowed to travel outside of Xinjiang. U need a permit for that 

[inlinesix]

4 minutes ago, Lala81 said:

My parents went Tibet. They said it's the worst trip ever in terms of physical discomfort. Akin to a pilgrimage.

They went via Qinghai to acclimatize. But i think too short duration cos of the limited duration of the tour. 
They took several nights to be able to sleep through the night. 

But struck off from bucket list 

I went jiuzhaigou when it was just opened for tourist.

It is not easy to get used change in elevation despite days traveling in Mini Bus.

[Lala81]

4 minutes ago, inlinesix said:

I went jiuzhaigou when it was just opened for tourist.

It is not easy to get used change in elevation despite days traveling in Mini Bus.

very beautiful but so crowded nowadays.
My parents went in the earlier years too. 

[inlinesix]

13 minutes ago, t0y0ta said:

There are 2 distinct narratives at play here.

The Western narrative is that China is colonial master and there are atrocities and police state in the Western provinces. The evidence they usually pull out are pictures of the smiley Dalai Lama, and murmurings of uigher camps. Their narrative dominates the Rest Of World thanks to their control of mass media.

The Chinese narrative is that these lands, esp Tibet under the religious rule had subjected to general population to serfdom and a miserable existence. China has brought prosperity and real development and also the non-Han minority citizens are accorded higher legal status in their system.

Having read both sides, I suspect the truth is somewhere in the middle.

It is undeniable facts that PLA “liberated” (aka invaded) Tibet from serfdom.

China has brought prosperity and development to the extent it looks like any other China cities (hearsay).

On the other hand, Tibet is losing its religious freedom greatly. Any religious leader is dealt with suspicion.

[inlinesix]

1 minute ago, Lala81 said:

very beautiful but so crowded nowadays.
My parents went in the earlier years too. 

I went in 1997.

My China colleague told me it is very crowded now 

[Lala81]

2 minutes ago, inlinesix said:

It is undeniable facts that PLA “liberated” (aka invaded) Tibet from serfdom.

China has brought prosperity and development to the extent it looks like any other China cities (hearsay).

On the other hand, Tibet is losing its religious freedom greatly. Any religious leader is dealt with suspicion.

Western religion is also an uncomfortable mix in the PRC state's world view.

Being a Catholic/Christian leader in China is like constantly "getting fixed"  (BTW I am a freethinker, so it's not me sympathizing with those of my faith).

[Lala81]

4 minutes ago, inlinesix said:

I went in 1997.

My China colleague told me it is very crowded now 

My parents maybe before the turn of the century too. 
Few years later, some singaporeans got hurt in accident. 
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/en/doc/2003-11/01/content_277519.htm

Not surprising to my parents, they said roads were dangerous.

I used to help them sort/select photos out to print.
This trip, i remembered them commenting on the accommodation/food. It's epic bad even by china standards.
Haha my parents told me go when it's developed. They said u won't be able to take the food 
 

[Beregond]

28 minutes ago, Lala81 said:

It will take several generations before history can say it's a "success" (integration into Han Society) or "failure" (inflamming the separatist movement more).

Anyway it's not like the Uighurs can vote.  
Allegedly they aren't even allowed to travel outside of Xinjiang. U need a permit for that 

Actually sg is a good example of how well we integrate  majority with minority different race n religion. There will be hardship at first.  Not all process will be perfect. But u had to go through with that for long term peace.

India is a good example where different religion split . Once u split forever no peace. How many generations  gone by. No improvement at all.

[Lala81]

2 minutes ago, Beregond said:

Actually sg is a good example of how well we integrate  majority with minority different race n religion. There will be hardship at first.  Not all process will be perfect. But u had to go through with that for long term peace.

India is a good example where different religion split . Once u split forever no peace. How many generations  gone by. No improvement at all.

hahaha our approach quite different from China approach.

But yes, in terms of the similarities that religious leaders here are held to strict code of conduct on commenting on anything other than religious issues (within your own faith).

I think it's hard to be integrated when there are different social strata, especially when the economic opportunities are skewed one way. 
Say the prosperity that went into Tibet allegedly (to the Tibetians) went to the Han settlers who came in and dominated the local economy. No doubt it's true. But in the earlier years, it's hard for the local provincial govt to trust native folks vs those pple coming from outer provinces whom u know is just there to make $. Pure and simple.
Similarly to the Africans who went to belgium/france/italy etc. And are now stuck in the lower classes. Disproportionately involved in crime and discriminated against. You can read about what Lukaku went through as a dark skinned guy growing up in belgium.

Edited July 29, 2020 by Lala81