Progressive wage or minimum wage? Detailed study needed

[Yewheng]

22 minutes ago, Victor68 said:

Yewheng, I was offered $2k but I feel I should be paid $5k so I rejected the offer. But hor, everyone else is offering $2k because there are more job seekers than opening then how? LL take $2k and look for 2nd job to reach $4k and hope for some OT lor

Then mean 2k is the market rate. So I order to be able to be paid 5k means this person need to prove that he could do the job that is justify for 5k job, not in the person view but in market rate conditions. 

Edited September 9, 2020 by Yewheng

[Yewheng]

1 hour ago, Victor68 said:

I think many people in the 'high level' didn't understand those earning below $1k situation. That is why the progressive wage always creeps into discussion. If one is struggling to survive with less than $1k without minimum wage, how to progress and enjoy long term benefits from progressive? Once you have that minimum,  then you can introduce whatever progressive lah.

Again you cannot cast judgement based on own persob thinking.. Remember tharman said about nobody have monopoly over compassion. It also applies to this too.. Tharman really very power.. Just a sentence and have so deep meaning. 

[Sdf4786k]

45 minutes ago, Yewheng said:

Okay, talking about this... Don't forget people have a choice. If the interviewer felt the pay is too low like huh? I will only get 850 per month for cleaner job? This cleaner may say no thanks, I will go for another job interview that will offer me higher salary. Government set mimimum wage law is just distort the market. The distortion could be in a from of hiring less low skill workers, push companies to automation, rise selling price of products or become less competitive in the market and etc. 

 

Don't forget, there is also risk of employees job hopping. Like they join this company worked for a few months decide to quit the job and join another company. Like that how? The money, time wasted in investing this person need to go through the whole process again. 

 

 

BTW, what you see is how can we survive like that, what if this person is just working for job experience like student, or this person is already quite happy with 850 then with no job. Look at maid, maid get even less then 850. They also like that.. So we cannot just cast judgement on a person like how can he get so low pay and how to survive where we are not him in the 1st place. We are just seeing from outside perspective that might not paint a 100% clear picture. 

 

 

 

 

Even maids from different country are paid differently.

So we agree that we probably need a snapshot of what the other part of the world is doing.

In germany, the workers on the production line are paid well and do not job hope. They take pride in their work and are truely well protected by the union. But the production workers in germany work very differently from our poly grad production workers. The skills and approach to a problem on the line will take 3 of the singapore workers to perform.

 

And hence, we should have an internship program for the ite students to be send to germany to be train and make singapore reinvent the workspace. Of course we wont do that. Its just my inner thoughts speaking out since we can use 650mil budget for the migrant workers, would it not make sense to spend a few billion to revamp the singaporean heartware and skill ware ? Or are we thinking. Nahhh.. lets just hire the foregn pmet. More leverage for trading partners.

We use to have the japan traini g instition and the german traini g institutiin. I suppose we need to have sn india training i stitution to dhow us the rope to a IT powerhouse if we want to build it?

If we already have Amazon, google and facebook here in singapore. Would it not be in the interest to setup a collaboration university and lab approach for singaporen to get ahead in this space

Edited September 9, 2020 by Sdf4786k

[Yewheng]

15 minutes ago, Sdf4786k said:

That 2 or 3 job thinking concept probably spin off from people who sits on 10 or more board of director roles. So, the idea to take on more than 2 jobs for them to say is easier than done. But if you need to have a full time job, need to take care of the family, take part time course for your degree or mba and still go for reservist, its just going to be an uphill slooe. Not impossible, but something will break. And like all people who dont have a response to such question, they will say there are not alot of these people. We should be resilent and talk about the solution, not about problems and see how to make it happen.

Which bring us one full circle. If discrimination is there. No matter how hard you work, as long as you not in that cirvle if friends, you will always be excluded no matter how hard you try. Its going to be a fools errant. 

 

Ya lor.. Whoever that come out with speech in parliament that need to mandate to allow employers to allow 2 jobs. Is really darn terrible idea.. And this is from PAP mp somemore.. Haiz.. Speechless.. 

 

It should be up to individual employers to decide whether to allow or not allow and not government step in and mandate you must do this, you must do that.. 

Edited September 9, 2020 by Yewheng

[Victor68]

54 minutes ago, Yewheng said:

Again you cannot cast judgement based on own persob thinking.. Remember tharman said about nobody have monopoly over compassion. It also applies to this too.. Tharman really very power.. Just a sentence and have so deep meaning. 

it is not my personal thinking and I am not even the receiver. It is the real situation that require our compassion. Something the government is able to address.  

[Victor68]

58 minutes ago, Yewheng said:

Then mean 2k is the market rate. So I order to be able to be paid 5k means this person need to prove that he could do the job that is justify for 5k job, not in the person view but in market rate conditions. 

then again you simply didn't understand how the bizman works. If I can get cheap labour, why pay more? These cheap labour compete in a unfair basis. For example the shops pay rental but the street vendors just display their goods and sell. Who is cheaper?

[Voodooman]

If you work 10-12 hours a day, do your job and yet don't earn enough to live a basic existence as cheap foreign workers (living 12 to a room) are flooding the market, who is to blame? Certainly not the worker who is willing and able to work. It is a policy failure.  YH will say these workers should then move to a white collar job and earn $10k a month. Wahaha..... 

If G cannot manage the economy and job market well, perhaps another team can try to do a better job. 

Not saying everyone is entitled to a job but G's primary function must be to ensure majority of people who wants to work can find a job that pays enough to sustain a basic life in Singapore. 

To be fair, they are not doing too badly on this front with PWM.

[Yewheng]

44 minutes ago, Victor68 said:

then again you simply didn't understand how the bizman works. If I can get cheap labour, why pay more? These cheap labour compete in a unfair basis. For example the shops pay rental but the street vendors just display their goods and sell. Who is cheaper?

So you are assuming that market so big that every business momopolise? It does not make sense, coz job seeker can choose not to accept the job if pay is too low. 

 

When there are only say 4 or 5 companies yes they can momopolise based on what you said, but when there are thousands of companies, how can they able to do that? 

Edited September 9, 2020 by Yewheng

[Victor68]

44 minutes ago, Yewheng said:

So you are assuming that market so big that every business momopolise? It does not make sense, coz job seeker can choose not to accept the job if pay is too low. 

 

When there are only say 4 or 5 companies yes they can momopolise based on what you said, but when there are thousands of companies, how can they able to do that? 

Why are we having so many FT today? 

[Yewheng]

35 minutes ago, Victor68 said:

Why are we having so many FT today? 

You want business closure or have ft and yet hire Singaporeans? 

[Victor68]

43 minutes ago, Yewheng said:

You want business closure or have ft and yet hire Singaporeans? 

The subject of expatriates working in foreign countries is not new and we never have a problem with this in the past. Singaporeans are also working oversea as expatriates whether talent or not depend how one sees it.

When you have an influx that took away jobs meant for locals and our economy cannot support even locals, then it is a big question. These business is here for charity or pump in money to the government by setting up their companies with their own people but taking away anything? If they are indeed here offering employment opportunities to the locals, then what is the complaint? In the 70 we have many factories employing locals in manufacturing. They have senior staff over here to set up and run the plants. 

All our education systems have failed so badly that these FT educations are far better? We run out of Singaporeans and they prefer Grab? Have you work or have experience with FT in your course of work and find that they are indispensable or special skills you cannot find as compared to locals? That gentleman in the condo incident is a classic example. I am not saying strictly zero FT but we need to review this thoroughly and someone must be responsible. To me, MOM who issue the permit is responsible.  

[Yewheng]

58 minutes ago, Victor68 said:

The subject of expatriates working in foreign countries is not new and we never have a problem with this in the past. Singaporeans are also working oversea as expatriates whether talent or not depend how one sees it.

When you have an influx that took away jobs meant for locals and our economy cannot support even locals, then it is a big question. These business is here for charity or pump in money to the government by setting up their companies with their own people but taking away anything? If they are indeed here offering employment opportunities to the locals, then what is the complaint? In the 70 we have many factories employing locals in manufacturing. They have senior staff over here to set up and run the plants. 

All our education systems have failed so badly that these FT educations are far better? We run out of Singaporeans and they prefer Grab? Have you work or have experience with FT in your course of work and find that they are indispensable or special skills you cannot find as compared to locals? That gentleman in the condo incident is a classic example. I am not saying strictly zero FT but we need to review this thoroughly and someone must be responsible. To me, MOM who issue the permit is responsible.  

What you said is somewhat true, but introduce mimimum wage will help? In fact it make things worst. 

This is like applying wrong medicine to the sickness.. 

Edited September 9, 2020 by Yewheng

[Windwaver]

5 hours ago, Sdf4786k said:

We use to have the japan traini g instition and the german traini g institutiin. I suppose we need to have sn india training i stitution to dhow us the rope to a IT powerhouse if we want to build it?

 

 

https://www.domainofexperts.com/2019/11/3-months-and-400-for-guaranteed-diploma.html

Less than a week after J P Morgan Executive Director Ramesh Erramalli was in the news for his aggressive attitude towards a security guard, netizens have dug further into his educational background.

 

According to his LinkedIn profile, which has since been deactivated, Mr. Erramalli had graduated with an Executive MBA from the University of Hull (2009 to 2011) and had earlier obtained a Postgraduate Diploma in Computers & Information at Uptron ACL (1994 to 1996).

 

While there is nothing unusual about this on the surface, an inquisitive netizen Jack Song dug deeper into Uptron ACL and found out that its registered address was at B-96 Wazipur Industrial Area Ring Road in New Delhi – 110052.

Besides the fact that Uptron ACL was sited within an industrial area, it is interesting to note that a school – which purports to teaches IT skills – does not appear to have any online presence. The eagle-eyed netizen thus took it upon himself to look up the school at its address.

 

Upon reaching the given address, however, the school was nowhere to be found but a business by the name of “Shri Ram Laminators Pvt. Ltd.” was spotted instead. Based on their website, the Shri Ram Laminators calls itself a “Manufacturer, Supplier of Orthopedic Belt Fabric , Helmets Laminated Fabric, EVA Laminated Fabric” that was established in 1991.

Posing as a student, Mr. Song managed to ‘enroll’ in a 3-month long diploma for a mere 21,000 rupees (S$403) which includes registration, library and course fees. According to Mr. Song, the school had even promised him a ‘guaranteed’ graduation.

 

[Atonchia]

7 hours ago, Victor68 said:

I think many people in the 'high level' didn't understand those earning below $1k situation. That is why the progressive wage always creeps into discussion. If one is struggling to survive with less than $1k without minimum wage, how to progress and enjoy long term benefits from progressive? Once you have that minimum,  then you can introduce whatever progressive lah.

Some said $1K can buy flat right. 

Where got struggle? 

[kobayashiGT]

1 hour ago, Windwaver said:

 

https://www.domainofexperts.com/2019/11/3-months-and-400-for-guaranteed-diploma.html

Less than a week after J P Morgan Executive Director Ramesh Erramalli was in the news for his aggressive attitude towards a security guard, netizens have dug further into his educational background.

 

According to his LinkedIn profile, which has since been deactivated, Mr. Erramalli had graduated with an Executive MBA from the University of Hull (2009 to 2011) and had earlier obtained a Postgraduate Diploma in Computers & Information at Uptron ACL (1994 to 1996).

 

While there is nothing unusual about this on the surface, an inquisitive netizen Jack Song dug deeper into Uptron ACL and found out that its registered address was at B-96 Wazipur Industrial Area Ring Road in New Delhi – 110052.

Besides the fact that Uptron ACL was sited within an industrial area, it is interesting to note that a school – which purports to teaches IT skills – does not appear to have any online presence. The eagle-eyed netizen thus took it upon himself to look up the school at its address.

 

Upon reaching the given address, however, the school was nowhere to be found but a business by the name of “Shri Ram Laminators Pvt. Ltd.” was spotted instead. Based on their website, the Shri Ram Laminators calls itself a “Manufacturer, Supplier of Orthopedic Belt Fabric , Helmets Laminated Fabric, EVA Laminated Fabric” that was established in 1991.

Posing as a student, Mr. Song managed to ‘enroll’ in a 3-month long diploma for a mere 21,000 rupees (S$403) which includes registration, library and course fees. According to Mr. Song, the school had even promised him a ‘guaranteed’ graduation.

 

Woah. XXXXX my diploma cost me 12K leh!

[Sdf4786k]

11 minutes ago, kobayashiGT said:

Woah. XXXXX my diploma cost me 12K leh!

U not shy meh. Your 12 k dipolma vs 400 dipolma can become managing director liao.

In fact after that episode, i became very depress and sucidal, because my dipolma and degree is just not good enough to be employed by a prestigous bank with system admin experience. Dont even need much money and effort. 

Haiz. I am such a failure to my family line. 😁

Edited September 9, 2020 by Sdf4786k

[Sdf4786k]

3 hours ago, Victor68 said:

The subject of expatriates working in foreign countries is not new and we never have a problem with this in the past. Singaporeans are also working oversea as expatriates whether talent or not depend how one sees it.

When you have an influx that took away jobs meant for locals and our economy cannot support even locals, then it is a big question. These business is here for charity or pump in money to the government by setting up their companies with their own people but taking away anything? If they are indeed here offering employment opportunities to the locals, then what is the complaint? In the 70 we have many factories employing locals in manufacturing. They have senior staff over here to set up and run the plants. 

All our education systems have failed so badly that these FT educations are far better? We run out of Singaporeans and they prefer Grab? Have you work or have experience with FT in your course of work and find that they are indispensable or special skills you cannot find as compared to locals? That gentleman in the condo incident is a classic example. I am not saying strictly zero FT but we need to review this thoroughly and someone must be responsible. To me, MOM who issue the permit is responsible.  

I tend to agree on your observation. 

When HP setup factory to make scope. We still did not have enough manpower. So we import malaysian from the causeway. But we manage to co exist. We also had angmoh boss that impart skill and knowhow and sometimes we even fly overseas for product transfer.

And we were so good that it was an economical miracle for us to take pride in our education. And the evidence that hardwork pays. You go to school. You study . Have a above average brain and above average work ethics, you will do well. Meritrocacy rule the day. 

 

Now we even have to realign our thoughts on meritrocacy or rather, the erosion of the value.

[kobayashiGT]

33 minutes ago, Sdf4786k said:

U not shy meh. Your 12 k dipolma vs 400 dipolma can become managing director liao.

In fact after that episode, i became very depress and sucidal, because my dipolma and degree is just not good enough to be employed by a prestigous bank with system admin experience. Dont even need much money and effort. 

Haiz. I am such a failure to my family line. 😁

Ya lor. Singapore only can produce failure like me. 🤣 Maybe I should go India and find work. Maybe come back I can be CEO also. or COO, CFO.. . .