Nearly 1,000 households in Tengah sign up for centralised cooling system

[Victor68]

8 hours ago, Voodooman said:

You can't use thermostat to auto switch on and off (or run at lower load) like a home fridge (like Honda Vtec) when water temperature is at an optimal level with reduced usage? 

I am not sure if transmission loss for electricity is easier to manage than a DC system, which is dependent on pipe insulation to minimize cooling loss. Our power plants are mostly located all over the island but DC plants are built at location, so distance traveled would be far shorter.  Happy to hear your expert opinion. 

Whether using refrigerant or water cool, there will be 2 or 3 way valves to regulate temp. This is basic. Maintaining constant pressure and flow rate are never easy. Lag time in air-conditioning is very challenging and sudden draw of heavy load to achieve good Delta T which is efficiency of the system. Hear say only.

[Voodooman]

14 hours ago, Kb27 said:

I read some other remarks:

1. Maintenance cost is more or less fixed and likely to rise in the future. If SP offers you $X bill today with 1,000 household, what happens when the number of household drops for some reasons ? Will they increase your bill ? Probably, quite likely, then more household drops, cascading effect.

2. As the plant gets older more parts need to be replaced, again will SP  offload the bill onto consumers ?

They can talk all about efficiency, but the final sticking point is how much $ you pay ?

And when it's time you decide to remove that white elephant hanging off your wall, you have to pay $400.

If you use 2 aircon units for 8 hours a day, your electricity bill for aircon alone will be around $70 a month (My level of usage is even higher). Assuming saving of 20%, you can save at least $14 a month, over first 5 years, you will save $840. I read that because compressors are not needed and you only need to pay for the fancoil units, upfront cost is reportedly $2k lower. 

90% sign up rate in Tengah, i think the maths is easy if the 20-30% saving is real and there are no hidden cost and you are an aircon family. 

 

[kobayashiGT]

11 minutes ago, Voodooman said:

If you use 2 aircon units for 8 hours a day, your electricity bill for aircon alone will be around $70 a month (My level of usage is even higher). Assuming saving of 20%, you can save at least $14 a month, over first 5 years, you will save $840. I read that because compressors are not needed and you only need to pay for the fancoil units, upfront cost is reportedly $2k lower. 

90% sign up rate in Tengah, i think the maths is easy if the 20-30% saving is real and there are no hidden cost and you are an aircon family. 

 

I hope they will implement this on the next HIP at Ubi! I wanna save too! 🤣

[Voodooman]

4 hours ago, Victor68 said:

Whether using refrigerant or water cool, there will be 2 or 3 way valves to regulate temp. This is basic. Maintaining constant pressure and flow rate are never easy. Lag time in air-conditioning is very challenging and sudden draw of heavy load to achieve good Delta T which is efficiency of the system. Hear say only.

This is technical but i still don't understand why you think the project is not feasible.  

SP has been running DC at Marina Bay for more than 10 years and this is all over China, ME and Europe. They should know they are getting into a price sensitive household market whereby users have the option to switch if cost goes up and DC is no longer competitive. The market will ensure they price it competitively below conventional air-conditioning. 

They will need to build scale to make money, so the saving has to be real, otherwise this will end up like a white elephant and they will lose tens of millions.

 

 

[Stratovarius]

40 minutes ago, Voodooman said:

This is technical but i still don't understand why you think the project is not feasible.  

SP has been running DC at Marina Bay for more than 10 years and this is all over China, ME and Europe. They should know they are getting into a price sensitive household market whereby users have the option to switch if cost goes up and DC is no longer competitive. The market will ensure they price it competitively below conventional air-conditioning. 

They will need to build scale to make money, so the saving has to be real, otherwise this will end up like a white elephant and they will lose tens of millions.

 

 

Because it is technically hard? lol. the harder to do, the higher the cost, the more maintenance needed.

Also, the upfront/setup cost is much higher. Setting up a DC system can easily in tens of millions. This will directly affect the dollar/sqft of the real estate. Guess who's paying? Also, in land scarce SG, the footprint needed by DC building can be used for retail/office or residential which can generate more money through rental or sales.

Edited October 22, 2020 by Stratovarius

[Stratovarius]

17 hours ago, Kb27 said:

I read some other remarks:

1. Maintenance cost is more or less fixed and likely to rise in the future. If SP offers you $X bill today with 1,000 household, what happens when the number of household drops for some reasons ? Will they increase your bill ? Probably, quite likely, then more household drops, cascading effect.

2. As the plant gets older more parts need to be replaced, again will SP  offload the bill onto consumers ?

They can talk all about efficiency, but the final sticking point is how much $ you pay ?

And when it's time you decide to remove that white elephant hanging off your wall, you have to pay $400.

i think SP will just slap a flat rate for the "subscription fee" based on the size of your flat. Every few years they will adjust up to cater for maintenance and replacement of the system. Unlike electricity and water usage, it's hard to quantity household usage because the water is always flowing. Unless they can measure the heat load you added to the system and charge accordingly. 

[Didu]

The slot on the token is 20mm. It can probably be attached to a nato watch strap to wear it on the wrist.

 

[Kklee]

1 hour ago, Stratovarius said:

i think SP will just slap a flat rate for the "subscription fee" based on the size of your flat. Every few years they will adjust up to cater for maintenance and replacement of the system. Unlike electricity and water usage, it's hard to quantity household usage because the water is always flowing. Unless they can measure the heat load you added to the system and charge accordingly. 

The new acronyms I learnt are kWr and kWrh relating to capacity charge and usage charge. 

Edited October 22, 2020 by Kklee

[Victor68]

3 hours ago, Voodooman said:

This is technical but i still don't understand why you think the project is not feasible.  

SP has been running DC at Marina Bay for more than 10 years and this is all over China, ME and Europe. They should know they are getting into a price sensitive household market whereby users have the option to switch if cost goes up and DC is no longer competitive. The market will ensure they price it competitively below conventional air-conditioning. 

They will need to build scale to make money, so the saving has to be real, otherwise this will end up like a white elephant and they will lose tens of millions.

 

 

Do check with operators of Marina Bay DC. Are they paying cheaper per Rton. As I have said, commercial buildings load are much more predictable. Why commercial buildings are facing challenges for night load to achieve similar efficiency as day load? Resi will be much more challenging. Technically why, then one needs to be knowledge to fully understand.  Otherwise story talk until tomorrow also no use. Haha

[Voodooman]

6 hours ago, Stratovarius said:

Because it is technically hard? lol. the harder to do, the higher the cost, the more maintenance needed.

Also, the upfront/setup cost is much higher. Setting up a DC system can easily in tens of millions. This will directly affect the dollar/sqft of the real estate. Guess who's paying? Also, in land scarce SG, the footprint needed by DC building can be used for retail/office or residential which can generate more money through rental or sales.

So SP is investing tens of millions in a system that is likely to lose all its customers to conventional aircon system in years to come (as predicted by you and a few others here)? Or you think they don't mind losing tens of millions coz it is paid by Govt, which is taxpayer's money?  

I read the DC plants in Marina Bay are all underground. 

Edited October 22, 2020 by Voodooman

[Yewheng]

18 hours ago, Voodooman said:

So SP is investing tens of millions in a system that is likely to lose all its customers to conventional aircon system in years to come (as predicted by you and a few others here)? Or you think they don't mind losing tens of millions coz it is paid by Govt, which is taxpayer's money?  

I read the DC plants in Marina Bay are all underground. 

That's what I think too... Hope SP did not get any grant from government or what to built these aircon project.. If so does that, it really goes to the line of lobbying government at the expense of taxpayers money. If sp want can, spend their own money without government grant or what.. 

[Kklee]

50 minutes ago, Yewheng said:

That's what I think too... Hope SP did not get any grant from government or what to built these aircon project.. If so does that, it really goes to the line of lobbying government at the expense of taxpayers money. If sp want can, spend their own money without government grant or what.. 

AFAIK. 
Singapore District Cooling (SDC) is a subsidiary of SP Group .
SP Group is  been wholly owned by Singapore investment fund Temasek which in turn is wholly owned by the Singapore government.
Don't think so need grant. 

 

[Kangadrool]

On 10/21/2020 at 6:57 PM, Kb27 said:

I read some other remarks:

1. Maintenance cost is more or less fixed and likely to rise in the future. If SP offers you $X bill today with 1,000 household, what happens when the number of household drops for some reasons ? Will they increase your bill ? Probably, quite likely, then more household drops, cascading effect.

2. As the plant gets older more parts need to be replaced, again will SP  offload the bill onto consumers ?

They can talk all about efficiency, but the final sticking point is how much $ you pay ?

And when it's time you decide to remove that white elephant hanging off your wall, you have to pay $400.

Whether more or less households in the same precinct take up in the future, the rate will rise. More households, they will give higher demand, lesser households, they will cite higher per unit cost blah blah blah as reasons to justify. Head I win tail you loose scenario.

You basically become the captive audience.

Edited October 23, 2020 by Kangadrool

[Voodooman]

7 hours ago, Kklee said:

AFAIK. 
Singapore District Cooling (SDC) is a subsidiary of SP Group .
SP Group is  been wholly owned by Singapore investment fund Temasek which in turn is wholly owned by the Singapore government.
Don't think so need grant. 

 

Deleted

Edited October 23, 2020 by Voodooman

[Voodooman]

On 10/23/2020 at 2:03 PM, Kangadrool said:

Whether more or less households in the same precinct take up in the future, the rate will rise. More households, they will give higher demand, lesser households, they will cite higher per unit cost blah blah blah as reasons to justify. Head I win tail you loose scenario.

You basically become the captive audience.

Jialat, Tengah residents are really screwed.

Hearsay in the DC contract, there is a clause that said that if you switch to conventional aircon, your electricity supply will be cut off. So you can only switch to ceiling fan. How to tahan?

Just kidding bro. I really don't understand the negativity here. This project might still fall but it won't be because SP/ SDC are betting on residents' generosity and haven't taken competition risk into consideration. Maybe i assume too much, SDC might just be ran by a bunch of idiots. 😂

[Yewheng]

18 hours ago, Voodooman said:

Jialat, Tengah residents are really screwed.

Hearsay in the DC contract, there is a clause that said that if you switch to conventional aircon, your electricity supply will be cut off. So you can only switch to ceiling fan. How to tahan?

Just kidding bro. I really don't understand the negativity here. This project might still fall but it won't be because SP/ SDC are betting on residents' generosity and haven't taken competition risk into consideration. Maybe i assume too much, SDC might just be ran by a bunch of idiots. 😂

If that's the case, this is what I mean lobby government at the expense of others. 

[Voodooman]

4 hours ago, Yewheng said:

If that's the case, this is what I mean lobby government at the expense of others. 

Lobby to keep tariff high so that they lose more customers or lobby for subsidy to plug the hole?

[Yewheng]

3 hours ago, Voodooman said:

Lobby to keep tariff high so that they lose more customers or lobby for subsidy to plug the hole?

It's something like.. 

 

Company A approach government.. Hey I got this idea.. I can create a eco system that would benefit the environment and yet save on cost. Sounds great? Government look at the proposal and say.. Hmm.. Not bad.. And give it a nod to go ahead. 

 

The problem now is that this company A now have monopoly over the eco system. Whatever presented on paper does not matter anymore once this company gets to control it. 

 

So think of it this way, the centralised cooling system, yes it is workable in commercial building. It worked for commercial buildings does not mean it will work for residential buildings. Commercial building uses and operation is greatly different from residential building users. 

 

For residential uses, people generally do not on long hours for aircon right? Maybe at night sleeping or when there is guests coming. Coz if they on 24-7 the electricity bills will be expensive. Plus what if many of them on day time need to go work. So day time during weekday is mostly no need on aircon. So now the centralised cooling system will run 24-7 be it this household got use aircon at that timing or not right? So if too little users use the aircon at that particular timing, aren't it is not efficient use of the centralised cooling system? Plus why need to make things so complicated. For residential users.. If want to use aircon, they could ownself go buy and install aircon. If want save the environment, then buy the one that is the most energy efficient available lor, problem solved. Why always need to bring in government to the picture. By bringing government to the picture like okay, government to want to implement centralised cooling system to residential areas = another avenue for companies to lobby the government.