Jump to content

studying IT in singapore.


Playtime
 Share

Recommended Posts

8 hours ago, Kangadrool said:

Hahaha... the tide has turned! Indeed, during my time, Electronics Engineering was the most popular Engineering choice. Most of these Electronics Engineers/Technologists are now either selling insurance/property or driving taxis. 

Back in local univ in those days, everyone in engineering did one year of common engineering course, before choosing whether they wanted to be continue in CE, EE or ME. EE was the most competitive, if I recall, followed by ME, then CE is for those who really wanted it or got no choice [laugh]

 And among the EE, further specializations - I remember semicon and comms were the most popular - due to the growth of the wafer fab and hard disk sectors, and also liberalisation of telecoms sector, allowing M1 and starhub to join the fray. Those were the days. 

  • Haha! 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

25 minutes ago, Sosaria said:

Back in local univ in those days, everyone in engineering did one year of common engineering course, before choosing whether they wanted to be continue in CE, EE or ME. EE was the most competitive, if I recall, followed by ME, then CE is for those who really wanted it or got no choice [laugh]

 And among the EE, further specializations - I remember semicon and comms were the most popular - due to the growth of the wafer fab and hard disk sectors, and also liberalisation of telecoms sector, allowing M1 and starhub to join the fray. Those were the days. 

And I belong to that era.  During that time,  the EE classmates around me were mostly from top JCs and the grades were easily 3or 4 straight As and  above.

Really sad to see it has turned into a dumping ground. 

And Engineering is not easy.  I am wondering how intakes with poor entry grades could survive the 4 years.

 

  • Praise 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, Sdf4786k said:

Quite true. Because our studies are generic in nature so that No one gets hurt forecasting the tech. 

Example, there are so many cloud flavours out there. Going with one and not the others would deem unfair practice.

Yet the CECA community does it so well.. I wonder how they do it.

So as an example, MQ and clover messaging and other messaging tech, not many singaporean will be able to say they heard of it. Yet ask any other non Singaporean, they will tell you its a old tech and they did it many years ago.

Just like a resurgence of AS400. RPG , some banks are hiring .. but none are familiar and they paying big bucks for it to the extend of hiring and reskilling ...

 

 

Despite it's ancient origin, AS400 had nvr been out, i believe most bank r still using it in their backend cos AAS00 is very secure due to it's physical structure, and u r right, those few certified AS400 old man engineer maintaining the system r super heng cos they r paid very well for a relatively simple job of maintaining the system.

  • Haha! 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

23 hours ago, Albeniz said:

And I belong to that era.  During that time,  the EE classmates around me were mostly from top JCs and the grades were easily 3or 4 straight As and  above.

Really sad to see it has turned into a dumping ground. 

And Engineering is not easy.  I am wondering how intakes with poor entry grades could survive the 4 years.

 

Lowered standard lorrr ... make test/exam easier etc. But I think the university has no pressure to graduate the students - if fail means wash out, no need to have a target number to graduate every year. At least for engineering, where the numbers of undergrads are large enough to take the attrition. It'd be different, say, for more protected limited-numbers courses like medicine or law.

Edited by Sosaria
Link to post
Share on other sites

22 hours ago, Sosaria said:

Lowered standard lorrr ... make test/exam easier etc. But I think the university has no pressure to graduate the students - if fail means wash out, no need to have a target number to graduate every year. At least for engineering, where the numbers of undergrads are large enough to take the attrition. It'd be different, say, for more protected limited-numbers courses like medicine or law.

Yeah, fourier transform is pretty interesting.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

There's some harmful myths that hurt Singapore and many are shown here.

1) Singaporeans arent good enough

Did you know any decent software engineer with a bit of working experience and willing to work in San Francisco or Seattle starts at easily 100k USD per year, going up to 500k USD or more after a few years with stock awards? This is a salary no other profession will offer to fresh grads. There has always been great IT Singaporean workers if you know where to look, and most will not stay here, given the ease to work in US thanks to H1B1 visas.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chade-Meng_Tan

 

2) IT jobs can be easily outsourced

You can be Singhealth, or you can be Microsoft. You are always one major IT breach away from completing ruining your reputation. It's about time Singapore companies realise having competent IT is an essential competitive edge and not a cost to be minimised.

 

3) CECA is the reason why Singaporeans cant find IT jobs

This may not be a myth, but it doesnt work the way you think. The government made hiring of foreign IT workers much harder since 2011, but because of CECA, they couldnt do a corresponding tightening for CECA countries. The end result is that the only ones you can hire are from CECA countries, leading to a lack of diversity. Had we retained the vibrant diversity before 2011, a Singaporean can more easily fit into a team full of Aussies, French, Swedes, Russians. Now the whole team is Indian. Dont even need to speak English already. How will a Singaporean fit in "culturally"?

 

4) There's no future in IT

I am paid very well, considering I nearly flunked out of university (I studied EE). I dont even code. I have been told for decades the profession is dead, Indians will take over. It is rubbish. If you are good at what you do, there will always be room. Every single industry has an IT angle to it. The biggest selling point of Tesla compared to other BEVs is the software. Same with iPhones. Does anybody buy a non smart TV? 

 

5) Singaporeans should not do basic IT work that should be outsourced

This is like telling medical students dont do housemanship. Law students shouldnt do pupilage. Just jump straight into the senior roles. Nobody will trust you to do the real work if you never did the grunt work. Outsource it all, then dont be surprised Singaporeans cant get the real IT jobs. I worked my way up from crawling around server floors as did my other Singaporean colleagues.

 

Edited by Jim
  • Praise 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

I really love the way Jim phrased things. I am a graduate in Comp Science from overseas and have >10 years working experience in IT.

1. There are really great Singaporean workers that have been shadowed by the cheaper workers from CECA countries. I do agree that a lot of the top Singaporean IT grads (including one of my friends from army) has moved out of SG to the US. They pay him REALLY WELL.

2. In my current company, they have outsourced nearly 95% of the work overseas but there are some work where they realised they have to be kept in SG. No matter how good the outsource countries are, there is always a need for someone on the ground in SG to look at the systems here.

3. Future in IT. When I took my Dip in IT > Bach in Comp Sci, back then people keep telling me that I'm not good enough therefore is unable to go into professional courses like Medicine, Law, Accountancy, etc. Nowadays, people pat me on the back (including the same people that mocked me back then) and say I am are lucky to choose IT.

4. I have done time grinding, worked from the desktop support - L1 > network support L2 > Wintel L3. Now I'm a PM working on IT automation project. 

- When I interview new graduates, a lot of them ask for unrealistic basic salary and I'm surprised that the local Uni are selling these "salaries" as the norm. I think that is why a lot of them are unhappy when they join the IT industry.

  • Praise 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

When you restrict your people from studying certain courses. Try to set very high entry level. Then you start to import 'talents' that aren't at all. Then you say the locals need retraining. This whole saga is just amusing.  

Link to post
Share on other sites

maybe we ARE totally dependent on "leading global companies" from India....

 

 

 

https://www.straitstimes.com/politic...-on-watch-list

Call to curb biased hiring by naming firms on watch list
 

This image has been resized.Click to view original image


47 more employers were recently added to the FCF watch list for potentially discriminatory hiring practices, on top of an earlier 1,200.PHOTO: ST FILE

PUBLISHED 3 HOURS AGO
FACEBOOK TWITTER

Senior labour MP says this will improve transparency and send a strong signal

Grace Ho Senior Political Correspondent

A senior labour MP has called on the authorities to disclose the names of companies put on a watch list for biased hiring, to improve transparency and send a strong signal that such behaviour must stop.

National Trades Union Congress assistant secretary-general Patrick Tay told The Straits Times yesterday that "it is ever more critical for us to ensure that Singaporeans are considered fairly, especially in the current employment climate".

He has been lobbying to tighten the Fair Consideration Framework (FCF) to ensure workplaces are fair and progressive, and to strongly deter unfair hiring practices.

The FCF was introduced in 2014 to maintain a strong Singaporean core in PMET (professional, managerial, executive and technician) jobs and requires employers to assess Singaporeans fairly for all job openings.

Amid concerns from job seekers in a tough job market caused by the Covid-19 pandemic, the Ministry of Manpower (MOM) said on Wednesday that 47 more employers were recently added to the FCF watch list for potentially discriminatory hiring practices, on top of an earlier 1,200.

Eighteen of these firms have foreigners comprising over half of their PMET workforce. Thirty are in the financial and professional services, and were found to have a high concentration of PMETs from single nationalities - significantly higher than their industry peers.

Their Employment Pass (EP) applications for foreign hires will be closely scrutinised, and those who are recalcitrant or uncooperative will have their work pass privileges cut back.

Mr Tay said disclosing the companies' names will allow job seekers to be better informed.

Asked why MOM did not name companies on the watch list, which was first introduced in 2016, a ministry spokesman told ST that it will periodically publicise the names of firms that are found guilty of discriminatory hiring practices.

"For example, in March 2020, MOM released the names of five employers penalised for age-related discriminatory hiring," it said.

They are: education centre Wisdomtree Learning Centre, events company Outshinerz Events, and security firm Security & Risk Solutions, all of which had indicated preferred age criteria in job ads. Two related companies, Incredible Service Doc and IDOC, granted interviews only to female Chinese applicants under the age of 45.

For breaching Tripartite Guidelines on Fair Employment Practices, MOM barred the five firms from hiring foreigners and from renewing the work passes of existing foreign employees for 12 months.

Mr Tay proposed two other measures to tackle biased hiring: Remove the exemption for intra-corporate transferees (ICTs), and have tougher measures and penal sanctions against companies that treat the FCF as "mere window dressing" or find ways to circumvent the requirements through the use of exemptions.

He said: "This will help level the playing field for Singaporean job seekers, such that as long as they are competent and qualified for the job, they can apply and be considered for the position."

Currently, a job is exempted from the FCF advertising requirement if it will be filled by an ICT.

The requirement states that employers must advertise positions for Singaporeans on Jobs Bank - launched in 2014 to facilitate job matching for local job seekers - before they can apply for an EP.

To be exempted, the EP candidate has to meet the stringent definition of ICTs under the World Trade Organisation's General Agreement on Trade in Services, or any applicable free trade pact that Singapore is party to. This includes term limits and a minimum number of years of work experience in the company outside Singapore.

Yesterday, MOM said the FCF watch list was introduced to proactively identify employers suspected of discriminatory hiring practices.

Through the Tripartite Alliance for Fair and Progressive Employment Practices' engagement, firms suspected of discriminatory hiring practices will be referred to MOM for investigation and action, it said.

MOM added that those on the watch list have to take immediate actions to correct their practices, and will be assessed every six months.

"If they improve on their hiring practices, they will exit the watch list. Only a handful of firms have been put back on the watch list after exiting it."

Calls for tougher measures have been raised in Parliament. Last November, Senior Minister of State for Manpower Zaqy Mohamad said the FCF watch list has shifted employer behaviour, but has not gone unnoticed: "If leading global companies think twice about investing in Singapore or rethink their future plans for Singapore, the result could be fewer good jobs for Singaporeans. So, it is a delicate balancing act."


 

Link to post
Share on other sites

and this.

 

https://www.theonlinecitizen.com/2019/11/18/st-says-number-of-local-it-grads-set-to-grow-while-ceca-continues-to-import-it-workers-from-india/

 

The Straits Times reported today that the number of local university IT graduates is set to grow by two-thirds in 3 years’ time, which will go some way towards “plugging the gap in the sector” (‘Rising number of tech grads in Singapore set to plug gap in sector‘, 18 Nov).
The intake for infocomm and digital technology courses across the six local universities shot up from 1,250 in 2015 to 2,050 last year, according to data from Ministry of Education (MOE).
However, even as Singapore’s universities are producing more local IT graduates, the Singapore-India Comprehensive Economic Cooperation Agreement (CECA) remains under enforcement. Under CECA, it allows for “movement of natural persons” between the India and Singapore:

Professionals who are employed in 127 specific occupations are allowed entry and can stay for up to a year to “engage in a business activity as a professional”. The person would need to produce “letter of contract” from the party engaging the services of the said person.

Intra-corporate transferees will be permitted entry and can work for up to 2 years. This can be extended to a total term of not more than 8 years;

Business visitors who hold five-year multiple journey visas will be permitted entry for business purposes for up to 2 months, with an option to extend by an additional month; and

Short-term service suppliers will be allowed entry to service their contracts for an initial period of 90 days.

For intra-corporate transferees, it is defined as an employee who has been employed for a period of not less than either six months in company and one year industry experience or three years industry experience immediately preceding the date of the application for entry.
There is also no quota requirement imposed on intra-corporate transferees, which means an Indian company can hire a whole “village” of staff and transfer them to Singapore 6 months later lock, stock and barrel.
Furthermore, under Article 9.3 of CECA, all the “intra-corporate transferees” are to be exempted from any “labour market testing” or “economic needs testing”. That means, economic needs testing like Singapore’s fair consideration framework which ensures fair hiring of Singaporeans cannot be applied to “intra-corporate transferees”.
To top it all, Article 9.6 even allows the “intra-corporate transferees” to bring in their spouses or dependents to work here too.
High number of IT occupations identified for Indian IT professionals to work in Singapore
And under the professional category, the professionals are allowed to work in the host country for a year as long as he or she could produce a “letter of contract” showing that his or her service has been engaged. That means to say, these professionals can work as contract workers for a year in the host country.
However, CECA did not say if they can come back to the host country to work again under a new contract for another year after their current contract ends.
Among the 127 specific occupations identified in CECA, at least 19 belong to the IT category:

System Designer & Analyst

Network System & Data Communication Analyst

Software Engineer

Computer and Information Systems Manager

Computer Operations and Network Manager

Application Programmer

Systems Programmer

Multi-media Programmer

Network System & Database Administrator

Database Administrator

Information Technology Auditor

Information Technology Security Specialist

Information Technology Quality Assurance Specialist

Electronics Engineer

Telecommunications Engineer

Computer Engineer

Computer Systems Engineer

Computer Applications Engineer

Computer Hardware Design Engineer

That means to say, Indian IT professionals under these 19 categories can work in Singapore as contract staff for a year, with possibility of constant contract renewals every year.
Recently, Trade and Industry Minister Chan Chun Sing assured that Indian professionals working in Singapore are subjected to work pass qualification. He said, “Indian professionals, like any other professionals from other countries, have to meet MOM’s existing qualifying criteria to work in Singapore. This applies to Employment Pass, S Pass, and work permit.”
But he forgot to mention that under Employment Pass (EP), there is no quota requirement for foreigners. The minimum salary to qualify for EP is only $3,600 a month.

So, as long as large number of Indian IT graduates continue to flood Singapore, the local IT graduates trained by the 6 universities will have an uphill task competing.
Also, with the huge supply of IT workers from India, the salaries in IT industry in Singapore can only be continually depressed, which further discourages Singaporean students from taking up IT in universities. The whole situation becomes a vicious cycle.
It’s not known if DPM Heng Swee Keat, the person who led the Singapore team in negotiating CECA with India back when he was the permanent secretary of MTI more than 15 years ago, has foreseen this at the time.
 

Link to post
Share on other sites

(edited)

i tot TOC lying....... but googling seems to indicate they have a case??

i wonder how many singaporeans have taken advantage to chiong India... this agreement MUST have benefited singaporeans immensely. other wise who so stupid sign it?

kinda like china "unequal treaty" no?

maybe im just hugely mistaken....

 

http://www.commonlii.org/sg/other/treaties/2005/1/INSFTA-Agreement.html

 

ARTICLE 9.3: GENERAL PRINCIPLES FOR GRANT OF TEMPORARY ENTRY

 

Each Party shall grant temporary entry to natural persons of other Party, who are otherwise qualified for entry under applicable measures relating to public health and safety and national security, in accordance with this Chapter.

Each Party shall process expeditiously applications for temporary entry from natural persons of the other Party, including requests for further extensions. Each Party shall notify applicants for temporary entry, either directly or through their prospective employers, of the outcome of their applications, including the period of stay and other conditions.

Neither Party shall require labour market testing, economic needs testing or other procedures of similar effects as a condition for temporary entry in respect of natural persons upon whom the benefits of this Chapter are conferred.

Natural persons of either Party who are granted temporary entry into the territory

of the other Party shall not be required to make contributions to social security funds in the host country. In such cases, they will not be eligible for social security benefits in the other Party for the duration of the stay.

 

ARTICLE 9.6: EMPLOYMENT OF SPOUSES AND DEPENDANTS

 

For natural persons of a Party who have been granted the right to long term temporary entry and have been allowed to bring in their spouses or dependants, a Party shall, upon application, grant the accompanying spouses or dependants of the other Party the right to work as managers, executives or specialists (as defined in paragraphs 2(f)(i)

to (iii) of Article 9.2), subject to its relevant licensing, administrative and registration requirements. Such spouses or dependants can apply independently in their own capacity (and not necessarily as accompanying spouses or dependants) and shall not be barred by the Party granting them the right to work from taking up employment in a category other than that of managers, executives, or specialists solely on the ground that they as the accompanying spouses or dependants are already employed in its territory as managers, executives or specialists.

 

 

Edited by Playtime
↡ Advertisement
Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...