2021 Hyundai Ioniq 5 EV

[teomingern]

1 hour ago, boonhat_91 said:

Road tax never had any logic one.. Even among ICE car they all roughly occupy the same space regardless of engine size, yet there is differentiation based on engine cap.

You raise some pretty good points.. The small-ness of our city is quite fixed, therefore SG is actually a great place for large scale EV adoption.

That said, car-lite is the endgame here. Gov isn't gonna move middle/low-incomers to electric, rather, the goal is to move them to public transport.

You might have also strengthened the argument for car-lite. Why invest heavily into EV infrastructure if hydrogen is the "real future"? Maybe by the time I invest in hydrogen infrastructure there is a new tech that is the "real future". Instead of constantly playing catchup with greener solutions for private transport, why not axe private transport altogether? It would cost less to keep up investments into greening public transport only.

For a city state... car lite or public transport makes sense... it's just that it was never thought to reach all areas... so we're paying the price now given our building density and road network... the amount of digging, demolishing, building and refurbishment of our walkways, roads, kerbs is astounding...

I just wonder why we don't invest in EV in a larger way for buses given that they use depots, travel fixed routes and mostly fixed timings... so I thought it was the most effective way to reduce emissions and noise and heat on the ground...

Edited March 2, 2021 by teomingern

[Gliazzurra]

On 3/1/2021 at 8:13 PM, inlinesix said:

Unlike BEV, hydrogen will not improve in range without increasing tank size.

Battery and electric motor technology has been improving fast over the years.

For ppl with children, it is unlikely they will go carless.

In addition, for ppl for don't like a hassle, it is unlikely you will renew COE.

 

But hydrogen cars don't have range issue in the first place cause the refill is done in 5 mins, similar as gas..

[inlinesix]

10 hours ago, teomingern said:

Tank size isn't an issue... cos refueling is easy and quick... just double that of filling with petrol... plus increased hydrogen density tanks will help with range I suppose...

I have many colleagues with children who go without a car... young children by the way... so it's possible... and would be likely if it's simply not economical to do so or financially impossible lor...

From Mirai 1 to 2, range improved with bigger tank.

Next time I will share this post.

[inlinesix]

16 minutes ago, Gliazzurra said:

But hydrogen cars don't have range issue in the first place cause the refill is done in 5 mins, similar as gas..

Currently, hydrogen car & BEV has about the same range.

Globally, hydrogen has limited refill station.

Toyota Mirai starts from US$50k

Tesla Model 3 starts from US$29k.

[yishunite]

I would be damn scared of hydrogen cars knowing there are Tanjong Pagar racers out there

[boonhat_91]

4 hours ago, yishunite said:

I would be damn scared of hydrogen cars knowing there are Tanjong Pagar racers out there

Electric cars no different, some more the fire notoriously hard to extinguish. Instant M4-like acceleration at a fraction of the price, scary too.

[teomingern]

10 hours ago, yishunite said:

I would be damn scared of hydrogen cars knowing there are Tanjong Pagar racers out there

You have them everywhere lor... I always avoid... ha ha...

[Lethalstrike]

On 3/2/2021 at 10:57 AM, boonhat_91 said:

Road tax never had any logic one.. Even among ICE car they all roughly occupy the same space regardless of engine size, yet there is differentiation based on engine cap.

You raise some pretty good points.. The small-ness of our city is quite fixed, therefore SG is actually a great place for large scale EV adoption.

That said, car-lite is the endgame here. Gov isn't gonna move middle/low-incomers to electric, rather, the goal is to move them to public transport.

You might have also strengthened the argument for car-lite. Why invest heavily into EV infrastructure if hydrogen is the "real future"? Maybe by the time I invest in hydrogen infrastructure there is a new tech that is the "real future". Instead of constantly playing catchup with greener solutions for private transport, why not axe private transport altogether? It would cost less to keep up investments into greening public transport only.

Besides physical size, you forgot about emissions. Our road tax assumes that the higher engine capacity will produce more emissions. 

[teomingern]

On 3/4/2021 at 10:43 PM, Lethalstrike said:

Besides physical size, you forgot about emissions. Our road tax assumes that the higher engine capacity will produce more emissions. 

I thought it's measured? Not presumed to be such? That's where the VES kicks in to discount the tax? Is that how it's supposed to be understood? Tax breaks for more efficient propulsion methods?

Edited March 8, 2021 by teomingern

[Lethalstrike]

14 minutes ago, teomingern said:

I thought it's measured? Not presumed to be such? That's where the VES kicks in to discount the tax? Is that how it's supposed to be understood? Tax breaks for more efficient propulsion methods?

It's presumed to be such, historically. 

The road tax structure which you paid for accordingly to your engine cap and vehicle age has existed for a long time, way before CEVS/VES emissions scheme came into effect from 2013 onwards. How did they came to the conclusion that a higher cc engine is supposed to pay more than the lower cc engine back in those days? You would have guessed its due to emissions, engine power and physical size.

In those days, it's very rare that any automaker will put in a 3000cc engine into a A segment body. So the road tax structure back then simply assumes that a larger capacity engine would come with a bigger physical size and higher power with more emissions. Simply put, the invention of a BMW 7 series luxury sedan with a 1998cc (2.0L turbo) or a BMW M140i hatchback with a 2,998cc (3.0L turbo) are products of modern times. 

 

 

[velocity-]

1 hour ago, Lethalstrike said:

It's presumed to be such, historically. 

The road tax structure which you paid for accordingly to your engine cap and vehicle age has existed for a long time, way before CEVS/VES emissions scheme came into effect from 2013 onwards. How did they came to the conclusion that a higher cc engine is supposed to pay more than the lower cc engine back in those days? You would have guessed its due to emissions, engine power and physical size.

In those days, it's very rare that any automaker will put in a 3000cc engine into a A segment body. So the road tax structure back then simply assumes that a larger capacity engine would come with a bigger physical size and higher power with more emissions. Simply put, the invention of a BMW 7 series luxury sedan with a 1998cc (2.0L turbo) or a BMW M140i hatchback with a 2,998cc (3.0L turbo) are products of modern times. 

 

 

I always felt the EV roadtax was flawed and should be taxed either by a flat rate, or how much electricity it consumes.

I.e 10-15kwh/100km, band 1

     15.1-18kwh/100km, band 2

      18.1kwh/100km and more band 3.

 

After all with a small 100hp ev or a Porsche Taycan turbo S, if both driven at legal limits, I'm sure the emissions are still 0 and the energy used proabably differs by not more than 20%.

[Volvobrick]

9 minutes ago, velocity- said:

I always felt the EV roadtax was flawed and should be taxed either by a flat rate, or how much electricity it consumes.

I.e 10-15kwh/100km, band 1

     15.1-18kwh/100km, band 2

      18.1kwh/100km and more band 3.

 

After all with a small 100hp ev or a Porsche Taycan turbo S, if both driven at legal limits, I'm sure the emissions are still 0 and the energy used proabably differs by not more than 20%.

It's a luxury tax lah!  Higher power means more expensive and owner is licher and can be taxed more, just like the tiered ARF. Nothing so complicated. Nothing about emissions, efficiencies etc.

[inlinesix]

 

[teomingern]

7 hours ago, Volvobrick said:

It's a luxury tax lah!  Higher power means more expensive and owner is licher and can be taxed more, just like the tiered ARF. Nothing so complicated. Nothing about emissions, efficiencies etc.

So with all the odd configurations on the market now, taxes should be based on power output with OMV... plus emissions? Maybe how recyclable the car is, with emphasis on the battery?

[Fellows]

On 3/1/2021 at 9:59 AM, Newfamilyguy said:

Road tax is a pure unknown. Either government retain current road tax framework and phase out petrol car in next one to two decades (which I think could be possible) or lowered it to match petrol car. 

If they retain the current road tax framework and phase out car, it might force quite a number of people to not drive car, which fulfil their idea of car-lite. However, I hope they lower the road tax. 

The current outdated COE (via Horsepower/Engine CC) and road tax structure for EV cars don’t make any sense which is based on battery power output and its HP already more than 500HP. 

If only the Govt can give new first time EV cars users a special 10% off COE price, it might be attractive enough to make people buy EV cars. 

Edited March 20, 2021 by Fellows

[inlinesix]

46 minutes ago, Fellows said:

The current outdated COE (via Horsepower/Engine CC) and road tax structure for EV cars don’t make any sense which is based on battery power output and its HP already more than 500HP. 

If only the Govt can give new first time EV cars users a special 10% off COE price, it might be attractive enough to make people buy EV cars. 

By 2030, it is either Hybrid or EV.

By 2040, it is EV only.

 

[Mkl22]

30 minutes ago, inlinesix said:

By 2030, it is either Hybrid or EV.

By 2040, it is EV only.

 

Means majority of asean built cars will not be coming in. Not that it matters

Edited March 20, 2021 by Mkl22

[teomingern]

14 hours ago, Mkl22 said:

Means majority of asean built cars will not be coming in. Not that it matters

ASEAN will probably start building EVs as a matter of course... Will still be lower cost, leading to lower prices...