EVs may put Mercedes, Porsche, Rolls Royce out of business

[enzoalec92]

On 10/29/2021 at 11:10 PM, Heartbreakid said:

Won't be surprise. The term luxury was used to be defined by quiet cabin, comfort and great ride, and of course the smoothness of the engine (V8, V12). All of which now can be even easily achieved by electric motor. 

Human progress have come to a "peak" point where, what can be define as the new "luxury"? Autonomous driving? Flying car? Voice recognition? Auto this and that? Big and bigger screens? All of which, before technologies were not so advance like today, were pretty much a huge margin between normal cars and luxury cars. 

Guess in future, there aren't many great things to look forward to in the automotive world as compared to those before 2000s. Just felt that cars of this era, are too similar and characterless. 

I completely agree. Increasing regulation in the industry has led to a convergence in approach, where every manufacturer merely applies a tried-and-tested formula in updating their lineup without much experimentation. Meanwhile, the '80s to '00s have been the generation in which the most desirable collectors' cars were produced, due to their implementation of just the right amount of technology without it stifling innovation.

On 10/29/2021 at 11:38 PM, Wt_know said:

sure bo? isn't Porsche already making Taycan ...

That's true, but apart from handling sportiness, there's not much else to distinguish it from "regular" EVs. Seems like nowadays any half-decent electric car can perform a 0-100 kph launch in under 4-5s, although the difference is that the Taycan can do it all day thanks to its dual-speed gearbox.

On 10/30/2021 at 2:01 AM, happy_man said:

Let' be +ve: In decades from now, you may hv a chance to own a vintage ICE-powered BMW 5 Series in all its gearbox and oil gasket glories.  😝

 

Yeah, prices of any remotely interesting ICE cars will shoot through the roof. For all you know, even passenger cars and 💩boxes will command a premium, just as with what we've seeing now with EK-generation Civics and so on.

On 10/30/2021 at 3:46 AM, Beanoyip said:

All comes down to branding.. knowing Sinkies they will still choose Tesla over NIO or BYD...

Locals generally lack automotive knowledge, thus Tesla is to EVs like what Maggi is to cup noodles for them.

On 10/30/2021 at 9:00 AM, Mkl22 said:

Exactly. Just like the humble mobile phone these days. We have progress to having HW all the same. Differentiated only by SW and APPs. 
 

quite looking forward to an EV. Less crap to break. For a daily transport, I would like as reliable as possible. Might keep a combustion engine as a classic plate for fun and enjoyment. 

Although I've never driven an EV, I totally understand why enthusiasts would want one for a daily while still keeping an ICE car for spirited driving.

On 10/30/2021 at 9:59 AM, t0y0ta said:

Merc is Nokia?

I think for cars, the badge will always matter. As long as Merc continue to be 400k a piece, towkay will still buy

For those who prioritise brand recognition and prestige, sure, but otherwise the differentiation factor will be a lot less in EVs as compared to ICE cars as per the article's point.

On 10/30/2021 at 11:20 AM, Mkl22 said:

Let’s see. Never say never. 
our generation vs the new gen, mindset is vastly different 

This is true too. Virtually every person I know who's learning to drive is taking up a Class 3A licence. This includes guys, and it's a really sad state of affairs, since it demonstrates the ever-dwindling demographic of car enthusiasts.

On 10/30/2021 at 3:25 PM, Voodooman said:

While performances is not everything, the new Mercedes EQE's century sprint is just 5-6s (need to pay a lot more for dual motor's AMG) when a Tesla Model 3 with its dual motor cost a lot less and is much faster.

Maybe luxury in this context means slow too. Towkays don't like jerky ride?  😂😂😂

But agree with the article, with EV technology, the premium brands will need to work a lot harder to differentiate themselves, otherwise the premium will need to disappear or some will go out of business.

I understand you're joking, but luxury carbuyers typically have the disposable income to opt for a mid-to-upper range model instead of "poverty" spec, since it's a matter of "keeping up with the Joneses" and they wouldn't want others to think they can barely afford the badge LOL.

On 10/30/2021 at 6:18 PM, Lethalstrike said:

Nobody bothered to address the fact that every EV can be fast on the straights, but its a different ball game to make one which handles well along the twisties and with a linear braking feel?

Tesla is still far from the hall-mark of a handling machine, but that's beside the point. It's not meant for that at the first place, it performs extremely well for what's its designed to do. 

My point is, traditional premium marques still can draw on their past expertise and lineage in building cars. It's just that in the era of EVs, they had to become much more imaginative and creative in what they do. It's not just a solid thump from closing the doors, and swathes of premium leather here and there to command the premium. Cookie cutter designs and the same design language expressed in Small, Medium, Large templates (looking at you Germans) just doesn't cut it anymore. 

And yes, start poaching the talented software and electrical engineers. Especially the former. 

Yep, that's exactly my point. That being said, if Hyundai can accomplish what they've managed to do over the last 20 years - going from 💩box makers to overtaking Honda or Toyota in terms of build quality even in a tougher-to-compete generation of ICEs - imagine what these all these new players like Rivian and Foxconn can do in this new era of EVs.

On 11/1/2021 at 5:15 AM, Beanoyip said:

I think the Taycan or Audi GT does drive like a normal car..

It depends on what you define as "normal" though. If driving excitement's what you're after, then maybe, but I think it's still difficult to compare a general passenger ICE car to an enthusiast EV just because of the feel and sound of engine revs. Furthermore, even run-of-the-mill EVs tend to corner "flatter", since their battery packs are lower and they have less body roll than more sporty ICE cars.

23 hours ago, Throttle2 said:

I think the differentiation for the masses and the car lovers would be vastly different.

To me , a car with no sound is great for daily commute but horrible as a weekend drive.  A design as boring as a model 3 is worse than a toyota CHR.  
there is absolutely no excitement in the really boring ugly looking Model3.  Not to mention its average quality feel overall.
If we are talking purely singapore context.  How fast can you, do you really want to go?  I rarely drive faster than 90kmh nowadays.  Pick up of anything under 8 secs 0 to 100kmhr is really more than enough.   

so that leaves the $ talk now.   Parts maintenance petrol etc….. whic you pay as you drive or upfront $$$ for the price of the car and high rd taxes to boot along the way.  A young chap once commented to me, that when tesla is out, he will buy one becos he estimated the cost to be $80k all in.  I told him it will at least be double that, knowing how our govt works 😁🤣.    It has been 2 yrs since, i dont see him with his Tesla.

 now, the last thing i will highlight reveals truly what has already happen historically.  
digital watch versus mechanical watch.  
Everybody thought the digital watch would destroy the mechnical watch industry totally in the earlys years of introduction.

Even Rolex came up with quartz models in full solid gold no less!   In the end? What happened?

the culture of the new world and new world products is Use and throw, buy latest one.  
It does not savour nor relish the deeper inner things in life.  

in the end NOBODY WANTED TO BUY AN OLD DIGITAL WATCH. Not even when it was cheap  It was use, abuse, throw, get new.

while some may argue that for Tesla, just upgrade software. Its not so simple, hi tech stuff must have high tech look and feel.  Moreover we all know, Tesla also not stupid, if let you upgrade for free, how they sell new cars? If sell new cars, then how about old Teslas? For example how much would you pay for a 5 yr old Iphone 13?  I also dont know but i probably wouldnt.  So the one who buys new and does not sell within a year or two is screwed?    There isnt a right or wrong in the choice of your car.
All  these things we dont know, its in the future and i am just thinking aloud .

 No one knows what the future holds and my one simple take is not to read into the future too much, the present is most important.  
i think i will stick to my 3.5liter fuel guzzler “hi tech” car for the time being.   Maybe its just me, the tech laggard.  Or it could be the really smooth creamy feel of my V6 engine.

Agreed, the mindset between us enthusiasts and the general public who just want an applicance is vastly different. That being said, there will always be those who place an emphasis on the heritage of a marque, just as I've covered above in my reply to @t0y0ta.

22 hours ago, Wt_know said:

must HODL the IL6 and V6 engine liao .... V8/V10 has been "vintage" liao .... LOL

last time a street car E92 M3 = V8 and E60 M5 = V10 .... that's history liao .... 

Yep, just about everything has gone the way of turbocharging or hybridisation. Apart from Porsche with their 9,000 rpm flat-6s in the GT3 line or GMA with their 12,000 rpm Cosworth monster in the T.50 and a few select others, NA engines have sadly been relegated to the history books. 😭

[Mkl22]

Combustion engine cars are just too damn complex these days. So many sensors to meet emissions and also to break. Direct injection, turbo, supercharger, mild hybrid, DSG etc. each tech needs its own feedback loop and sensors. 

[enzoalec92]

3 hours ago, Mkl22 said:

Combustion engine cars are just too damn complex these days. So many sensors to meet emissions and also to break. Direct injection, turbo, supercharger, mild hybrid, DSG etc. each tech needs its own feedback loop and sensors. 

It's only going to get worse as we switch to EVs, since everything is going to be locked behind software paywalls and whatnot. Tesla has already been doing this since 2016, while aftermarket companies attempt to hack through these paywalls with their own devices, and Tesla has been countering such devices with their own detection systems.

This ultimately boils down to the issue about right-to-repair, because we deserve to do whatever we want with the things we buy and own. Unfortunately, companies want to remove our ability to do so, because we become another source of long-term revenue for them if we're wholly dependent on them, much like what's happening with John Deere tractors.

[inlinesix]

3 hours ago, Mkl22 said:

Combustion engine cars are just too damn complex these days. So many sensors to meet emissions and also to break. Direct injection, turbo, supercharger, mild hybrid, DSG etc. each tech needs its own feedback loop and sensors. 

More parts = higher probability of failure.

With EV, number of parts is reduced. But broken parts are replaced and NOT repaired.

[inlinesix]

8 minutes ago, enzoalec92 said:

It's only going to get worse as we switch to EVs, since everything is going to be locked behind software paywalls and whatnot. Tesla has already been doing this since 2016, while aftermarket companies attempt to hack through these paywalls with their own devices, and Tesla has been countering such devices with their own detection systems.

This ultimately boils down to the issue about right-to-repair, because we deserve to do whatever we want with the things we buy and own. Unfortunately, companies want to remove our ability to do so, because we become another source of long-term revenue for them if we're wholly dependent on them, much like what's happening with John Deere tractors.

What you said would kill most of the existing Independent WS.

 

[enzoalec92]

11 minutes ago, inlinesix said:

More parts = higher probability of failure.

With EV, number of parts is reduced. But broken parts are replaced and NOT repaired.

Replacement is fine, as long as it's done responsibly with as much recycled or reused as possible. Problem is companies mostly only care about their bottom line, so I foresee the already problematic issue of e-waste becoming a bigger one.

10 minutes ago, inlinesix said:

What you said would kill most of the existing Independent WS.

 

That's why we need to demand for right-to-repair across all industries - not just cars but consumer electronics (phones, computers, etc.) too. Otherwise, we lose the ability to do as we please with the things we own, such as bringing our items to independent repair shops.

Edited November 2, 2021 by enzoalec92
Context

[Wt_know]

that's why Tesla is not just selling the car ... but the entire "eco-system"

physical car price + routine servicing + software upgrades + original parts only +  charging network + OTA services that can runs on the car eventually 

huat until siao ah!

when the network is ready ... i probably go with Car-as-a-Service and use Tesla only ... the current BlueSG cannot make it la ... LOL

 

Edited November 2, 2021 by Wt_know

[Wt_know]

in PRC ... EV network already provide "battery swap" ... don't even need to charge ...

immediate 1-to-1 swap battery and no need to waste time charging ... 

the battery is 100% warranty since buyer worry about battery degradation

it's a win-win ... chop chop curry pop

i remember donkey years ago when i started driving sibei laapok car

i recalled i can swap "battery" ... those using liquid type at workshop ... muahahaha

then workshop take in the old battery ... refurbished it ...  

Edited November 2, 2021 by Wt_know

[kobayashiGT]

38 minutes ago, happy_man said:

Elon hates battery swapping - 8 years ago, he promoted his Telsa swapping solution during a event in 2013 - selling the idea "free" vs " faster".  As it turns out within last few years, the Chinese EV makers hv moved ahead of Telsa. 😝

 

not fair comparision lah. Such a fast car, must compare with fast car also. 🤣

 

[enzoalec92]

23 hours ago, happy_man said:

I have good news for you:  Both Xiaomi and Oppo are moving into EV business also, with the former joining BYD as strategic partner.

Interestingly, phone making has a lot of similarity when comes to brain of a EV system. 😜

https://carnewschina.com/2021/05/04/its-not-just-xiaomi-and-huawei-bbk-the-worlds-largest-smartphone-manufacturer-consider-to-build-a-car-under-the-oppo-brand/

 

 

That's the thing, consumer electronics manufacturers have the upper hand when it comes to EVs, due to their expertise in dealing with maximising battery density as well as the software needed to operate everything. They just lack the experience in making cars compliant with crash and pedestrian safety regulations, but I imagine that's an easy job with enough time and the right people.

On the contrary, "traditional" carmakers are fighting an uphill battle since cars have only been truly reliant on integrated electronic systems for far less than 40 years out of the automobile's 135-year history, so they actually have to play catch-up to the electronics industry. As everything becomes increasingly automated, it's only going to be more difficult for them.

[phozt]

@enzoalec92 I think this is helpful in Singapore context. With reduced features, comes lower omv = cheaper cars.

 

I rather have a car with all the hardware built in which I can activate at a later date, than a kosong specs car where there is no way or cost too much to retrofit. Plus retrofitting may not work 100% the way the manufacturer intended.

[enzoalec92]

25 minutes ago, phozt said:

@enzoalec92 I think this is helpful in Singapore context. With reduced features, comes lower omv = cheaper cars.

 

I rather have a car with all the hardware built in which I can activate at a later date, than a kosong specs car where there is no way or cost too much to retrofit. Plus retrofitting may not work 100% the way the manufacturer intended.

That's a fair point about reduced cost, but the way the market is moving likely means increased electrification is only going to cram even more software features into an already highly complicated product, causing prices to rise even further.

I get your preference about having options too but once again, the issue of increasing manufacturers locking hardware features behind software paywalls comes back to my reply (seen below) about the problem of dwindling right-to-repair across all industries, not just the automotive.

On 11/2/2021 at 3:59 PM, enzoalec92 said:

It's only going to get worse as we switch to EVs, since everything is going to be locked behind software paywalls and whatnot. Tesla has already been doing this since 2016, while aftermarket companies attempt to hack through these paywalls with their own devices, and Tesla has been countering such devices with their own detection systems.

This ultimately boils down to the issue about right-to-repair, because we deserve to do whatever we want with the things we buy and own. Unfortunately, companies want to remove our ability to do so, because we become another source of long-term revenue for them if we're wholly dependent on them, much like what's happening with John Deere tractors.

 

[Throttle2]

EVs wont work in Singapore.

Let’s face it. Not in the next 20yrs.   We cant have our cake and eat it.

if you live in a landed house , it can work.  But if your house can only park one car, you cant have more than one EV.  It would be silly still

if you live in condo of say 350 households with 350 cars, how many charging stations can a condo have? Maybe 10% say 20% of the car lots? 
Get ready for arguments and lot chopping and fights between who gets to use when. 
 

hDB leh, lagi no need to say……

outside office, malls and shopping leh, same same problem, how many charging stations can they have?

bottomline, you buy car for convenience not for wasting time looking for or charging it.  
 

Have fun

 

[Throttle2]

5 hours ago, Throttle2 said:

EVs wont work in Singapore.

Let’s face it. Not in the next 20yrs.   We cant have our cake and eat it.

if you live in a landed house , it can work.  But if your house can only park one car, you cant have more than one EV.  It would be silly still

if you live in condo of say 350 households with 350 cars, how many charging stations can a condo have? Maybe 10% say 20% of the car lots? 
Get ready for arguments and lot chopping and fights between who gets to use when. 
 

hDB leh, lagi no need to say……

outside office, malls and shopping leh, same same problem, how many charging stations can they have?

bottomline, you buy car for convenience not for wasting time looking for or charging it.  
 

Have fun

 

the price of cOE and car owning related taxes will totally kill EV ownership on top of the above.

good luck……muayhahhahhahhahahahah (Driving off in my 3.5liter ICE gas guzzler)  😂🤣😄😁😅

 

[Throttle2]

EVs may work in SG if either ONE following 2 things happen

1. New Porsche 911s can be had otr for $100k

2. COE is scrapped with no replacement scheme

😂🤣😄😆

Edited November 15, 2021 by Throttle2

[inlinesix]

4 minutes ago, Throttle2 said:

EVs may work in SG if either ONE following 2 things happen

1. New Porsche 911s can be had otr for $100k

2. COE is scrapped with no replacement scheme

😂🤣😄😆

Whether EV works or not, consumers has no other choice.

Unless you don’t mind 3rd world car.

[Throttle2]

11 minutes ago, inlinesix said:

Whether EV works or not, consumers has no other choice.

Unless you don’t mind 3rd world car.

the choice is the consumers

For me, I dont mind.  Never did.
Most people will only use 25% of all new car functions and gimmicks today anyway.

no impact for me, i have landed house, can easily accomodate EV if required.

 

Edited November 15, 2021 by Throttle2

[inlinesix]

2 hours ago, Throttle2 said:

the choice is the consumers

For me, I dont mind.  Never did.
Most people will only use 25% of all new car functions and gimmicks today anyway.

no impact for me, i have landed house, can easily accomodate EV if required.

I know you stay landed la.

That’s why EQS ftw