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Intermittent rattling noise, car in ICU


Ct3833
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My 14 year old W212 had this intermittent rattling noise from the front when decelerating to about 40kmh to 20kmh, it will happen when engine is heated up. The rattle noise sounds like a rotating mechanism knocking or marbles hitting some metal walls. The problem is difficult to troubleshoot  due to the intermittent nature of the noise and only when the car is moving . I have to highlight that I am one who will not save on maintenance, so it is not due to lack of servicing. 

Let me share the trouble I have to go through to nail the cause, or at least, I believe the mechanic have found the cause. 

It started off with the intermittent noise, to rule out some of the possible causes and guess work, I want to highlight that I have  replaced engine mounts , transmission mounts, belts , tensioner, cam adjusters, timing chain etc,  even the drive shaft bearing and bracket was replaced. Most of those mentioned items were replaced as part of wear and tear or as preventive maintenance along the way during various servicing schedules till my car has reached 200k km now, except for the drive shaft bearing and bracket , it was the one that I told my workshop to replace it as part of problem isolation. I also asked the mechanic to check if there was metal parts like heat shield or exhaust  that may come very close to contact with other metal or mountings, but there was none.


2nd workshop

Since the first workshop couldn't pin point the problem, I asked another of my regular workshop, the mechanic heard the noise and told me could be auto transmission and he will have to open up the autotrans and service the whole unit, I was not convinced that it could be the autotrans but  I could not fault the mechanic since he had only heard the noise for the first time. I told him more likely to be the engine and asked if he could check the valve lifter etc, but he didnt think so.

3rd Workshop

To validate the findings form the 2nd workshop, i sent the car to an autotrans specialist that i repaired my Odyssey gear box before to get a 2nd opinion, incidentally, the car came up with a engine check light when we rev the engine hard during the test drive, he had also heard the noise. He told me my ECU was having problem after reading the code from OBD. Again i was not convinced the noise can be caused by ECU, I didnt want to speculate why the engine check light first. I check the error code when i reached home, it was indicating cylinder 4 having fault. 

4th workshop

Not convinced with the autotrans specialist, I sent my car to another autotrans and engine specialist workshop, the guy heard the noise, check the code, he didnt know what happen, asked me to leave the car with him. After the next full day, he told me he could not find the problem, I asked him to open the engine block to check, look out for hairline cracks, valve lifters defects etc, he asked me if i was sure that I wanted to open the engine block, i told him to proceed. Another day had gone and he said still no fault found, I was a little panic then, I told myself cant be so complicated or bad luck. Fortunately, on the 4th  day, he told he he found the knocking, it was due to a piston that was slightly loosen and was knocking against the cylinder.  With that,  I was more convinced with the finding, at least it was likely the cause of knocking and it explained why only when the engine was heated up. 

Those who know about engine would know what happen next, the engine will have to be overhauled. He told me that will need at least 5k, but that was not my concern, I am hoping that the problem could be resolved once and for all. 

My experience indicates one thing, one needs to have some car knowledge in order to drive an old car, otherwise, otherwise one maybe taken for a ride by workshops. Not that they will cheat but the problem is when they only get to see or hear a problem for once, their diagnostic and conclusion may not be accurate, especially when a problem is intermittent, the owner who drive the car everyday have to provide feedback accurately, take the input from mechanics and decide if the findings make sense.

Now on the workshops, one may think that I anyhow find a workshop to diagnose a strange problem, no i did not, all the workshops that i engaged are not fly by night workshops, they are reputable and very experience workshops , just that the problem i had was unique and more difficult to troubleshoot. 

The repair should be done by mid to late next week, I really hope the problem could be resolved and I personally think so. Meantime I have to be contented with my Altis.🤣

 

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On 8/20/2023 at 6:19 PM, ER-3682 said:

@RadXsaid,time to change Car.

His tyre punctured change car, my tyres grind until explode change to new tyres I already happy like birds🤣🤣

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"My experience indicates one thing, one needs to have some car knowledge in order to drive an old car,..."

Your experience indicates one thing...and deep pocket plus patience...😁

RadX would at the first instance of hearing any noise...drive straight into a car showroom...there and then resolve any issue...provided the battery could lust till the destination 😂

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(edited)
On 8/20/2023 at 6:48 PM, mersaylee said:

"My experience indicates one thing, one needs to have some car knowledge in order to drive an old car,..."

Your experience indicates one thing...and deep pocket plus patience...😁

RadX would at the first instance of hearing any noise...drive straight into a car showroom...there and then resolve any issue...provided the battery could lust till the destination 😂

My pocket super shallow, Parf write off 25k, renew coe 35k, total 60k for 10 years, any cheaper i will have to take bus or riding a bicycle and be seen like a cockroache on the road by MCFers🤣🤣

Edited by Ct3833
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Twincharged
On 8/20/2023 at 6:06 PM, Ct3833 said:

My 14 year old W212 had this intermittent rattling noise from the front when decelerating to about 40kmh to 20kmh, it will happen when engine is heated up. The rattle noise sounds like a rotating mechanism knocking or marbles hitting some metal walls. The problem is difficult to troubleshoot  due to the intermittent nature of the noise and only when the car is moving . I have to highlight that I am one who will not save on maintenance, so it is not due to lack of servicing. 

Let me share the trouble I have to go through to nail the cause, or at least, I believe the mechanic have found the cause. 

It started off with the intermittent noise, to rule out some of the possible causes and guess work, I want to highlight that I have  replaced engine mounts , transmission mounts, belts , tensioner, cam adjusters, timing chain etc,  even the drive shaft bearing and bracket was replaced. Most of those mentioned items were replaced as part of wear and tear or as preventive maintenance along the way during various servicing schedules till my car has reached 200k km now, except for the drive shaft bearing and bracket , it was the one that I told my workshop to replace it as part of problem isolation. I also asked the mechanic to check if there was metal parts like heat shield or exhaust  that may come very close to contact with other metal or mountings, but there was none.


2nd workshop

Since the first workshop couldn't pin point the problem, I asked another of my regular workshop, the mechanic heard the noise and told me could be auto transmission and he will have to open up the autotrans and service the whole unit, I was not convinced that it could be the autotrans but  I could not fault the mechanic since he had only heard the noise for the first time. I told him more likely to be the engine and asked if he could check the valve lifter etc, but he didnt think so.

3rd Workshop

To validate the findings form the 2nd workshop, i sent the car to an autotrans specialist that i repaired my Odyssey gear box before to get a 2nd opinion, incidentally, the car came up with a engine check light when we rev the engine hard during the test drive, he had also heard the noise. He told me my ECU was having problem after reading the code from OBD. Again i was not convinced the noise can be caused by ECU, I didnt want to speculate why the engine check light first. I check the error code when i reached home, it was indicating cylinder 4 having fault. 

4th workshop

Not convinced with the autotrans specialist, I sent my car to another autotrans and engine specialist workshop, the guy heard the noise, check the code, he didnt know what happen, asked me to leave the car with him. After the next full day, he told me he could not find the problem, I asked him to open the engine block to check, look out for hairline cracks, valve lifters defects etc, he asked me if i was sure that I wanted to open the engine block, i told him to proceed. Another day had gone and he said still no fault found, I was a little panic then, I told myself cant be so complicated or bad luck. Fortunately, on the 4th  day, he told he he found the knocking, it was due to a piston that was slightly loosen and was knocking against the cylinder.  With that,  I was more convinced with the finding, at least it was likely the cause of knocking and it explained why only when the engine was heated up. 

Those who know about engine would know what happen next, the engine will have to be overhauled. He told me that will need at least 5k, but that was not my concern, I am hoping that the problem could be resolved once and for all. 

My experience indicates one thing, one needs to have some car knowledge in order to drive an old car, otherwise, otherwise one maybe taken for a ride by workshops. Not that they will cheat but the problem is when they only get to see or hear a problem for once, their diagnostic and conclusion may not be accurate, especially when a problem is intermittent, the owner who drive the car everyday have to provide feedback accurately, take the input from mechanics and decide if the findings make sense.

Now on the workshops, one may think that I anyhow find a workshop to diagnose a strange problem, no i did not, all the workshops that i engaged are not fly by night workshops, they are reputable and very experience workshops , just that the problem i had was unique and more difficult to troubleshoot. 

The repair should be done by mid to late next week, I really hope the problem could be resolved and I personally think so. Meantime I have to be contented with my Altis.🤣

 

Wow. 5workshops! I guess most of them are not too bothered to investigate. Typical of local workshops. 
hmm. Quite an unusual problem. Not too sure we understand what you mean by piston loose. You mean something wrong with the piston wrist pin to the conrod? That’s quite a rare problem. Which cylinder was it by the way. 
would think crank bearings would be more of an issue or piston rings broken. 
5k isn’t too much depending of what you and workshop mean by full overhaul. Quite subjective. 

anyway toyota for the win. 😂

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Twincharged
On 8/20/2023 at 6:48 PM, mersaylee said:

"My experience indicates one thing, one needs to have some car knowledge in order to drive an old car,..."

Your experience indicates one thing...and deep pocket plus patience...😁

RadX would at the first instance of hearing any noise...drive straight into a car showroom...there and then resolve any issue...provided the battery could lust till the destination 😂

Old cars still Japanese NA engines for the win. Simple and easy to fix. Turbo this and that for nice drivability but when old lots of weird problems especially conti. Too many ecu and whatever management computers and things to go wrong. 
if Subaru EJ or Mitsubishi 4G63, lots of mechanics here can rebuilt with eyes closed! 

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On 8/20/2023 at 7:29 PM, Mkl22 said:

Wow. 5workshops! I guess most of them are not too bothered to investigate. Typical of local workshops. 
hmm. Quite an unusual problem. Not too sure we understand what you mean by piston loose. You mean something wrong with the piston wrist pin to the conrod? That’s quite a rare problem. Which cylinder was it by the way. 
would think crank bearings would be more of an issue or piston rings broken. 
5k isn’t too much depending of what you and workshop mean by full overhaul. Quite subjective. 

anyway toyota for the win. 😂

Agree, some may not want to simply open up the engine block for an unconfirmed problem. 

I have not gotten the full explanation from the guy, let him do the repair first,  but insuspect it is cylinder 4. i also told him to replace anything that is about to wear out so as to avoid operting the hear twice. 

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On 8/20/2023 at 7:32 PM, Mkl22 said:

Old cars still Japanese NA engines for the win. Simple and easy to fix. Turbo this and that for nice drivability but when old lots of weird problems especially conti. Too many ecu and whatever management computers and things to go wrong. 
if Subaru EJ or Mitsubishi 4G63, lots of mechanics here can rebuilt with eyes closed! 

That's why I scrapped or exported all my past conti when they reached 10 yo...no matter how well maintained or low mileage...just not worth the risk of down time, let alone the potential hazardous situation...

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On 8/20/2023 at 6:19 PM, ER-3682 said:

@RadXsaid,time to change Car.

Dont sabo him, dont end up he get dragged into the $1billion dollar discussion.🤣🤣

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Supercharged
On 8/20/2023 at 7:29 PM, Mkl22 said:

Wow. 5workshops! I guess most of them are not too bothered to investigate. Typical of local workshops. 
hmm. Quite an unusual problem. Not too sure we understand what you mean by piston loose. You mean something wrong with the piston wrist pin to the conrod? That’s quite a rare problem. Which cylinder was it by the way. 
would think crank bearings would be more of an issue or piston rings broken. 
5k isn’t too much depending of what you and workshop mean by full overhaul. Quite subjective. 

anyway toyota for the win. 😂

loose wrist pin can give piston slapping sound 

quite distinctive, big end knocking is more low pitch and dull

I will lose sleep if I heard either one 😵💫

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On 8/20/2023 at 8:00 PM, Gnahp said:

loose wrist pin can give piston slapping sound 

quite distinctive, big end knocking is more low pitch and dull

I will lose sleep if I heard either one 😵💫

Actually it is not a problem as long as it can be fixed within  reasonable amount of money , worst case write off lor, but it will be a pity to write off 35k coe car.🤣🤣

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Do you have a second car in the family? 

The last time I have a similar problem (intermittent lost of engine power) that 3 separate workshops (including C&C) could not accurately troubleshoot and fix, I scrapped the car which I couldn't use much during that 1 month period.  There was no certain end to it and i just couldn't deal with it with my 996 schedule then.

You really need time and money to deal with old cars, not to mention the inconvenience.  Kudos to you and i hope you have really fixed it.

 

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Supercharged
On 8/20/2023 at 8:09 PM, Ct3833 said:

Actually it is not a problem as long as it can be fixed within  reasonable amount of money , worst case write off lor, but it will be a pity to write off 35k coe car.🤣🤣

diagnosis is the challenging, head scratching and time consuming part, like you said, cannot totally rely on the workshops 

you tell them you have headache, they chop the whole head and replace with a new one but in actual it is caused by a wisdom toothache 

time is money to them, they won't spend the time to find out what exactly causing the problem which could be due to a leaky 50 cents o-ring 

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On 8/20/2023 at 6:06 PM, Ct3833 said:

My 14 year old W212 had this intermittent rattling noise from the front when decelerating to about 40kmh to 20kmh, it will happen when engine is heated up. The rattle noise sounds like a rotating mechanism knocking or marbles hitting some metal walls. The problem is difficult to troubleshoot  due to the intermittent nature of the noise and only when the car is moving . I have to highlight that I am one who will not save on maintenance, so it is not due to lack of servicing. 

Let me share the trouble I have to go through to nail the cause, or at least, I believe the mechanic have found the cause. 

It started off with the intermittent noise, to rule out some of the possible causes and guess work, I want to highlight that I have  replaced engine mounts , transmission mounts, belts , tensioner, cam adjusters, timing chain etc,  even the drive shaft bearing and bracket was replaced. Most of those mentioned items were replaced as part of wear and tear or as preventive maintenance along the way during various servicing schedules till my car has reached 200k km now, except for the drive shaft bearing and bracket , it was the one that I told my workshop to replace it as part of problem isolation. I also asked the mechanic to check if there was metal parts like heat shield or exhaust  that may come very close to contact with other metal or mountings, but there was none.


2nd workshop

Since the first workshop couldn't pin point the problem, I asked another of my regular workshop, the mechanic heard the noise and told me could be auto transmission and he will have to open up the autotrans and service the whole unit, I was not convinced that it could be the autotrans but  I could not fault the mechanic since he had only heard the noise for the first time. I told him more likely to be the engine and asked if he could check the valve lifter etc, but he didnt think so.

3rd Workshop

To validate the findings form the 2nd workshop, i sent the car to an autotrans specialist that i repaired my Odyssey gear box before to get a 2nd opinion, incidentally, the car came up with a engine check light when we rev the engine hard during the test drive, he had also heard the noise. He told me my ECU was having problem after reading the code from OBD. Again i was not convinced the noise can be caused by ECU, I didnt want to speculate why the engine check light first. I check the error code when i reached home, it was indicating cylinder 4 having fault. 

4th workshop

Not convinced with the autotrans specialist, I sent my car to another autotrans and engine specialist workshop, the guy heard the noise, check the code, he didnt know what happen, asked me to leave the car with him. After the next full day, he told me he could not find the problem, I asked him to open the engine block to check, look out for hairline cracks, valve lifters defects etc, he asked me if i was sure that I wanted to open the engine block, i told him to proceed. Another day had gone and he said still no fault found, I was a little panic then, I told myself cant be so complicated or bad luck. Fortunately, on the 4th  day, he told he he found the knocking, it was due to a piston that was slightly loosen and was knocking against the cylinder.  With that,  I was more convinced with the finding, at least it was likely the cause of knocking and it explained why only when the engine was heated up. 

Those who know about engine would know what happen next, the engine will have to be overhauled. He told me that will need at least 5k, but that was not my concern, I am hoping that the problem could be resolved once and for all. 

My experience indicates one thing, one needs to have some car knowledge in order to drive an old car, otherwise, otherwise one maybe taken for a ride by workshops. Not that they will cheat but the problem is when they only get to see or hear a problem for once, their diagnostic and conclusion may not be accurate, especially when a problem is intermittent, the owner who drive the car everyday have to provide feedback accurately, take the input from mechanics and decide if the findings make sense.

Now on the workshops, one may think that I anyhow find a workshop to diagnose a strange problem, no i did not, all the workshops that i engaged are not fly by night workshops, they are reputable and very experience workshops , just that the problem i had was unique and more difficult to troubleshoot. 

The repair should be done by mid to late next week, I really hope the problem could be resolved and I personally think so. Meantime I have to be contented with my Altis.🤣

 

It would be helpful to know who are the workshops.
I owned and driven a W212 and it was relative trouble free with normal wear and tear. Given its age now, not too sure if it was overhauled?

Bring it to a Merc specialist. Some are quite good.

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On 8/20/2023 at 8:49 PM, Achtung said:

It would be helpful to know who are the workshops.
I owned and driven a W212 and it was relative trouble free with normal wear and tear. Given its age now, not too sure if it was overhauled?

Bring it to a Merc specialist. Some are quite good.

hi PM you, not fair for me to list them here.

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