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On 1/10/2025 at 3:10 PM, Krieger said:

I did feed back on the issue and the agent could not solve it despite saying its normal😀 But any way, its fun driving the European EV. 

The thing I cannot understand about having a mini fridge is the heat it generates will need the aircon to work extra work. Why in the first place put in? 

Is it the mini fridge runs on separate cooling system...just in case...no fish mini fridge for prawn also goode...😅

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On 1/10/2025 at 1:06 PM, Krieger said:

From a current EV car owner (2 brands), you have to be careful on the charging decay rate. I used to own an European brand and after 1.4 years, the consumption shoot up and reduce the efficiency by 20-30%. However, the handling is good.

Next is an non European brand. Battery is good, handling is so so and problems on parts rattling appear after the 2nd year. IU is horrible. I need to press many times on the screen at times to get to where I want. 

In short, its either you go for driving experience or you go for battery efficiency. 

When new, everything is good. 

 

Do you mind giving a hint on which European EV brand it is?

Shocking to hear 1.4 years the efficiency could degrade by 20-30%. Do you mean battery's State of Health has degraded by 20-30% or your electric consumption has went up by 20-30% in terms of kWh/100km? Something must be wrong with this car, unless you DC fast charge it to 100% every single time you had it for the 1.4 years. 

 

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Turbocharged
On 1/10/2025 at 7:06 PM, Lethalstrike said:

Do you mind giving a hint on which European EV brand it is?

Shocking to hear 1.4 years the efficiency could degrade by 20-30%. Do you mean battery's State of Health has degraded by 20-30% or your electric consumption has went up by 20-30% in terms of kWh/100km? Something must be wrong with this car, unless you DC fast charge it to 100% every single time you had it for the 1.4 years. 

It's likely the dfferent technology.

If I'm not wrong, only BYD is able to give a full 10 year warranty for their LFP batteries, which are touted to have long life and allow full charging to 100% without adverse consequences to battery life.

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On 1/13/2025 at 11:02 AM, Solar said:

It's likely the dfferent technology.

If I'm not wrong, only BYD is able to give a full 10 year warranty for their LFP batteries, which are touted to have long life and allow full charging to 100% without adverse consequences to battery life.

Even batteries sourced from CATL can also give 10-year warranty.

All LFP battery touted to have long life as compared to NMC.

 

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Neutral Newbie

Hi All,

Considering to get an EV also. I have a question, is EV insurance more expensive then ICE, based on assumptions say class of car. I looking at BYD sealion or model Y.

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@Sandpapa 

From first-hand owner experience (not some tia gong or EV doomsday non-EV owner naysayers), yes, definitely EV insurance premiums are higher than the ICE. For reference, for a driver profile with >10 years experience and 50% NCD, my very dinosaur age premium for the Alphard was at $735 while the EV premium is at $1500. 

It is made worst as a new EV car buyer as you are forced to take up the dealer in-house insurer thus one cannot source from the open market for a competitive quote. And it is made triple worst by the fact that the Sealion (an exceptional car by the way) is a new car thus premiums are always gonna be higher. 

However, it is not all gloom and doom. In terms of insurance costs, EV owner are most likely (at least in my case) required to pay more. However, once you broaden up the horizon, there are plenty of cost savings to be reaped for which the most obvious would be petrol cost. Thus, the best way to calculate is to determine your annual mileage, and base on your EV's km/kwh consumption, calculate the total charging costs for the entire year (can based on $0.6 per kwh) versus that of your current/comparative ICE car fuel consumption costs for the entire year. In most cases for an annual mileage of at least 15,000km, one should be able to get quite substantial savings. 

Once you are onboard the EV train, there is also a very satisfying smirk when you drive past those petrol stations and how those cartels will never ever earn a dime from you again. Today, I received a SMS from SPC about 23% fuel off. In the past, it would bring a grin to my face on the savings but now, I do not ever need to depend on their sympathy and pathetic discounts. 

I am more of a reader than contributor in this forum, and in my opinion, the 2 camps of ICEs versus EVs are very polarising and toxic. And there is plenty of misinformation on EV ownership where I even highly doubt that the contributor of those lopsided EV opinions are EV owners themselves to begin with. To them,

1. EVs combust spontaneously when you hit a curb/or get into fender bender accidents,

2. there is a high probability that your EV will BBQ itself every time you plug it in to charge - like illegally modified PMDs,

3. you get ZERO PARF at the end of 10 years - which is really nonsense as car ownership is looking at annual depreciation and not the PARF rebates,

4. insurance is x 3 or x 4 of ICE cars, road tax is a killer - true to a certain extent, so advice is stay below 250k kw motors,

5. you will never find an empty charging point in your lifetime - on the contrary, I always see empty chargers thus its really how one plan your charging schedule, if you can plan a holiday, planning a charging schedule isn't rocket science, 

6. Tyres wear out after 6 months of use - will provide more personal user experience in time to come

7. You need to sell your EV at 50% loss after 1 - 1.5 years of use - again, I have presented the Atto 3 resale prices for direct reference in my 'Electric MPV thread' to counter these naysayers. 

I really cannot understand the rationale behind these EV naysayers. I mean if you are a genuine EV owner, then yes, you are qualified to say your piece as back up by true ownership experiences. But from the way they write, one can safely assume they are ICE owners. If so, why the continued barbs in EV related threads? Just let potential EV owners do their own research and due diligence. I really don't see any EV owners go on a tirade and whack ICE cars bigtime in ICE related threads so hoping for some peace and balance to the 2 camps. 

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Hypersonic
On 1/17/2025 at 11:08 AM, Chipsahoy8919 said:

@Sandpapa 

From first-hand owner experience (not some tia gong or EV doomsday non-EV owner naysayers), yes, definitely EV insurance premiums are higher than the ICE. For reference, for a driver profile with >10 years experience and 50% NCD, my very dinosaur age premium for the Alphard was at $735 while the EV premium is at $1500. 

It is made worst as a new EV car buyer as you are forced to take up the dealer in-house insurer thus one cannot source from the open market for a competitive quote. And it is made triple worst by the fact that the Sealion (an exceptional car by the way) is a new car thus premiums are always gonna be higher. 

However, it is not all gloom and doom. In terms of insurance costs, EV owner are most likely (at least in my case) required to pay more. However, once you broaden up the horizon, there are plenty of cost savings to be reaped for which the most obvious would be petrol cost. Thus, the best way to calculate is to determine your annual mileage, and base on your EV's km/kwh consumption, calculate the total charging costs for the entire year (can based on $0.6 per kwh) versus that of your current/comparative ICE car fuel consumption costs for the entire year. In most cases for an annual mileage of at least 15,000km, one should be able to get quite substantial savings. 

Once you are onboard the EV train, there is also a very satisfying smirk when you drive past those petrol stations and how those cartels will never ever earn a dime from you again. Today, I received a SMS from SPC about 23% fuel off. In the past, it would bring a grin to my face on the savings but now, I do not ever need to depend on their sympathy and pathetic discounts. 

I am more of a reader than contributor in this forum, and in my opinion, the 2 camps of ICEs versus EVs are very polarising and toxic. And there is plenty of misinformation on EV ownership where I even highly doubt that the contributor of those lopsided EV opinions are EV owners themselves to begin with. To them,

1. EVs combust spontaneously when you hit a curb/or get into fender bender accidents,

2. there is a high probability that your EV will BBQ itself every time you plug it in to charge - like illegally modified PMDs,

3. you get ZERO PARF at the end of 10 years - which is really nonsense as car ownership is looking at annual depreciation and not the PARF rebates,

4. insurance is x 3 or x 4 of ICE cars, road tax is a killer - true to a certain extent, so advice is stay below 250k kw motors,

5. you will never find an empty charging point in your lifetime - on the contrary, I always see empty chargers thus its really how one plan your charging schedule, if you can plan a holiday, planning a charging schedule isn't rocket science, 

6. Tyres wear out after 6 months of use - will provide more personal user experience in time to come

7. You need to sell your EV at 50% loss after 1 - 1.5 years of use - again, I have presented the Atto 3 resale prices for direct reference in my 'Electric MPV thread' to counter these naysayers. 

I really cannot understand the rationale behind these EV naysayers. I mean if you are a genuine EV owner, then yes, you are qualified to say your piece as back up by true ownership experiences. But from the way they write, one can safely assume they are ICE owners. If so, why the continued barbs in EV related threads? Just let potential EV owners do their own research and due diligence. I really don't see any EV owners go on a tirade and whack ICE cars bigtime in ICE related threads so hoping for some peace and balance to the 2 camps. 

Good write-up.

I have been a converted EV owner for 3 months. 

Insurance typically doubles the ICE.  From my 2L turbo to Cat B EV with 282bhp. $900+ up to $1700+ on EV.

For the EV KW/h consumption, the actual can be better depending on driving style. My car paper spec is 5.2km/kWh. My actual is around 6.5km/kWh. This is based on manual recording and calculation for the past 3 months.

I don't even need to heavy foot or push hard and always ahead of traffic and lane changing is so effortless.

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1st Gear

For insurance, just to help with another point of reference.

2L turbo SUV 3 years old $1500 a year on renewal (it was $2000 a year when it was a brand new model)

Cat B EV $1800 a year

50%+5% NCD, fairly young driver. This is AIG through C&C so of course if you take outside coverage it can be half that amount, but at least through distributor the coverage is very extensive (you get hire car, easy to claim etc).

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Hypersonic
On 1/17/2025 at 1:10 PM, Jev said:

For insurance, just to help with another point of reference.

2L turbo SUV 3 years old $1500 a year on renewal (it was $2000 a year when it was a brand new model)

Cat B EV $1800 a year

50%+5% NCD, fairly young driver. This is AIG through C&C so of course if you take outside coverage it can be half that amount, but at least through distributor the coverage is very extensive (you get hire car, easy to claim etc).

You go outside AIG also get hire car lah. After 1yr of car ownership should immediately move out already.  Why stay with C& C to buy insurance. 

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On 1/17/2025 at 12:26 PM, Tohto said:

Good write-up.

I have been a converted EV owner for 3 months. 

Insurance typically doubles the ICE.  From my 2L turbo to Cat B EV with 282bhp. $900+ up to $1700+ on EV.

For the EV KW/h consumption, the actual can be better depending on driving style. My car paper spec is 5.2km/kWh. My actual is around 6.5km/kWh. This is based on manual recording and calculation for the past 3 months.

I don't even need to heavy foot or push hard and always ahead of traffic and lane changing is so effortless.

@Tohto

Thanks for chipping in as a fellow EV owner. 

You are right on about the 'better than paper' energy consumption of EVs, which while some may say is due to the fact that your EV is new (well, same logic can be applied to ICE & Hybrids as well), my EV fuel consumption is averaging at 5km/kwh, better than the claimed 4.66 km/kwh. 

And the perk of EVs (which goes against traditional ICE ingrained mindset) is that the more you drive, the more you save! As an ex-ICE user, petrol costs is definitely the biggest recurring denominator (after car depreciation) when it comes to car utilisation, and this is why most cars are going hybrid + PHEV now as the next evolution of the venerable ICE cars. So, it is not unusual for the thought process to only use the car when really necessary, either to save petrol costs or keep mileage low for warranty/resale value. Thus, it is not a stretch to say that some may choose to walk, car pool, use public transport even when they have a car at their disposal. At least, I am guilty of such cost savings measure. In an EV, one can say that you can drive the car 'guilt-free' as the usage cost per km is really low and the counterintuitive fact is that the more you drive, the more you save! 

In city-stated driving where there are plenty of start-stop traffic, EVs are definitely easier to drive (with 1-pedal driving) and in the past, I would lament every red light stoppage or traffic jams as it meant burning up petrol needlessly, which is a lot considering I was driving a very fuel guzzling Alphard. Nowadays, I am sincerely more zen when it comes to slow traffic or stopping at the lights, knowing that nothing more than a few watts of electricity is being used. Furthermore, when you 'brake' the car in slow traffic (not really brake as you just let go of the accelerator to let the motor regen itself), you are adding range to the battery thus one can really take further comfort in that except for time loss, you are not really losing anything else. 

Just 3 years ago when I bought the Alphard, I had considered EV which was coming to the fore at that point in time. But lukewarm government support, hefty road tax, uncertain utilisation costs (like charging options), insurance and the usual EV myths (spontaneous combustion, no resale value) deterred me from taking the plunge. Like many of the EV owners here, I am now 100% converted in that EVs are the future of the automotive world.

At the very least, I put my money where my mouth is (or fingers in this sense) by purchasing a $300k China made EV (again, the old me would say over my dead body for a $300K China product) but hey, even a Honda Accord costs the same amount now. Truly, one just needs to drive into Leng Kee to see this wave of transformation taking place. In the past, the showrooms are hogged by German makes. Today, at the junction of Leng Kee and Alexandra Road, the Audi building is giving way to Xpeng and this is the first thing any car owner sees driving into this famed stretch of car showrooms. Next to IKEA Queensway, Ford and Peugeot had lost their showroom to BYD and Denza. Recently, Eurokars (link: https://www.straitstimes.com/life/motoring/eurokars-group-bets-big-on-mg-as-part-of-47-million-showroom-and-facility-revamp) is pouring $47 million into a new showroom for MG (another China brand).

If one were to digest these news carefully, the Kwees and other automotive bigwigs have been in this game for the longest time. Does the EV (or even China EV) naysayers really believe that these industry tycoons who have seen it all, will invest millions of dollars into what the anti-EV camp says are doomed investments? After so many years as a working adult, I can say 1 thing I learnt is that the rich will only get richer, thus I would hedge that these automotive moguls are latching on to the next big thing. In the future (or in my overimaginative figment of reality), I would hazard that the resale of ICE would decrease or have lower value as compared to resale EV. The next wave of car buyers are those in the 18s - 25s now, who have been exposed to tech use since young so like what Doug Demuro (car Youtuber said a few years ago), owning a Tesla is now trendier than owning a BMW. So take for you will, EVs are here to stay so for both EV and ICE camps, let's just enjoy our respective rides and respectfully 'agree to disgree' with facts/personal experiences. 

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Hypersonic
On 1/17/2025 at 2:23 PM, Chipsahoy8919 said:

@Tohto

Thanks for chipping in as a fellow EV owner. 

You are right on about the 'better than paper' energy consumption of EVs, which while some may say is due to the fact that your EV is new (well, same logic can be applied to ICE & Hybrids as well), my EV fuel consumption is averaging at 5km/kwh, better than the claimed 4.66 km/kwh. 

And the perk of EVs (which goes against traditional ICE ingrained mindset) is that the more you drive, the more you save! As an ex-ICE user, petrol costs is definitely the biggest recurring denominator (after car depreciation) when it comes to car utilisation, and this is why most cars are going hybrid + PHEV now as the next evolution of the venerable ICE cars. So, it is not unusual for the thought process to only use the car when really necessary, either to save petrol costs or keep mileage low for warranty/resale value. Thus, it is not a stretch to say that some may choose to walk, car pool, use public transport even when they have a car at their disposal. At least, I am guilty of such cost savings measure. In an EV, one can say that you can drive the car 'guilt-free' as the usage cost per km is really low and the counterintuitive fact is that the more you drive, the more you save! 

In city-stated driving where there are plenty of start-stop traffic, EVs are definitely easier to drive (with 1-pedal driving) and in the past, I would lament every red light stoppage or traffic jams as it meant burning up petrol needlessly, which is a lot considering I was driving a very fuel guzzling Alphard. Nowadays, I am sincerely more zen when it comes to slow traffic or stopping at the lights, knowing that nothing more than a few watts of electricity is being used. Furthermore, when you 'brake' the car in slow traffic (not really brake as you just let go of the accelerator to let the motor regen itself), you are adding range to the battery thus one can really take further comfort in that except for time loss, you are not really losing anything else. 

Just 3 years ago when I bought the Alphard, I had considered EV which was coming to the fore at that point in time. But lukewarm government support, hefty road tax, uncertain utilisation costs (like charging options), insurance and the usual EV myths (spontaneous combustion, no resale value) deterred me from taking the plunge. Like many of the EV owners here, I am now 100% converted in that EVs are the future of the automotive world.

At the very least, I put my money where my mouth is (or fingers in this sense) by purchasing a $300k China made EV (again, the old me would say over my dead body for a $300K China product) but hey, even a Honda Accord costs the same amount now. Truly, one just needs to drive into Leng Kee to see this wave of transformation taking place. In the past, the showrooms are hogged by German makes. Today, at the junction of Leng Kee and Alexandra Road, the Audi building is giving way to Xpeng and this is the first thing any car owner sees driving into this famed stretch of car showrooms. Next to IKEA Queensway, Ford and Peugeot had lost their showroom to BYD and Denza. Recently, Eurokars (link: https://www.straitstimes.com/life/motoring/eurokars-group-bets-big-on-mg-as-part-of-47-million-showroom-and-facility-revamp) is pouring $47 million into a new showroom for MG (another China brand).

If one were to digest these news carefully, the Kwees and other automotive bigwigs have been in this game for the longest time. Does the EV (or even China EV) naysayers really believe that these industry tycoons who have seen it all, will invest millions of dollars into what the anti-EV camp says are doomed investments? After so many years as a working adult, I can say 1 thing I learnt is that the rich will only get richer, thus I would hedge that these automotive moguls are latching on to the next big thing. In the future (or in my overimaginative figment of reality), I would hazard that the resale of ICE would decrease or have lower value as compared to resale EV. The next wave of car buyers are those in the 18s - 25s now, who have been exposed to tech use since young so like what Doug Demuro (car Youtuber said a few years ago), owning a Tesla is now trendier than owning a BMW. So take for you will, EVs are here to stay so for both EV and ICE camps, let's just enjoy our respective rides and respectfully 'agree to disgree' with facts/personal experiences. 

So you driving the Denza D9?

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Turbocharged

I perfectly understand your joy in transiting from your ICE to current EV ride. Alphard is no doubt spacious and quality product but it is costly to run as a thirsty petrol guzzler even if one is rich. I remember the joy when I changed it to a humble E180 which is considerably frugal, with FC improved from 7km/L to 12km/L. Cannot help but feel happy when seeing petrol stations also as finally escaped the clutch of the thirsty beast. So I can understand your joy as your new ride is an EV which is even more frugal to run in terms of fuel cost.

BUT pls there is no need to paint EV as pure angels that everyone must embrace else something must be wrong with the person. It is definitely alright for people to wait at sideline to see how the technology evolve as this is still relatively new technology. The onslaught of Chinese EVs is to be expected and seems interesting with many new players entering our market. But if one is to pay attention to the China market, it is easy to see that the industry there is quite skewed and not realistic with the kind of excessive support provided by their govt. That is why we are now seeing more EV car makers closing shop as they cannot stay profitable even with the heavy subsidy. As some videos explained nicely, the EV market there is not about good product design or innovation, but more of doing enough to attract new fundings so that the existing investors can be rich and reaped more profit, hoping to be the next unicorns to be exact. The amount of debts they holding is really staggering and I really wonder how much longer they can survive.

So do not see this group of people as naysayers just because they want to be more cautious and are happy with their rides as is. Chinese EV industry is definitely not a bed of roses despite a few shining examples, even a few of them are dubious in reputation if you look carefully. If you like, just buy and enjoy. But nothing wrong to wait and see. And do not be like FM 95 as there are always 2 sides to a coin.

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Hypersonic
On 1/17/2025 at 4:33 PM, Chipsahoy8919 said:

@Tohto  yes [wave]

Very nice and comfortable car.

Never tried the full EV before.

But I took my Shanghai friend ride Denza D9 PHEV model for our road trip out from Shanghai for a few days. Very stable, quiet & comfortable ride for both China's long-distance highways and B road.

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@Heartlander 

And this is why i am more of a reader than contributor. Avoiding situations like this which sooner or later degrades into name calling and the likes. 

I think the situation is that the EV naysayers actively and intentionally wades into EV related thread spewing out misinformation and advice like they have owned EVs for years to reliably give their 5 cents worth of opinion. I mean one needs not be an owner to give a measured and considered opinion, but from the way I see it, some are borderline 'scams' like saying EVs depreciate 50% in 1-1.5 years when no numbers in the marketplace can ever consistently substantiate such claims. I need not go further as my post earlier today already calls out many of the points that paints EVs negatively but are not 100% true. 

As I said, we do not see EV owners going actively and intentionally into ICE threads to try to convert non-believers to join them but the reverse is happening consistently in this forum thus just taking it upon myself to try and balance things out. 

 

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@Tohto 

Indeed, to me at least, it's the most bang for buck proposition for quality to price for large MPVs in today's marketplace. To draw a reference, one needs to top up $100k for a new Alphard which (again in my opinion) doesn't measure up the D9 in terms of what the car offers. 

Have been seeing more D9s on the road thus I am obviously not the only silly buyer parting with $300k for a China car with dubious resale value and low PARF.  

And for the best validation, even Grab is throwing their hats into the ring with the D9 set to become the next 'luxury' PHV ride ala the king of MPVs, the Alphard! 

Edited by Chipsahoy8919
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1st Gear
On 1/17/2025 at 3:59 PM, Heartlander said:

BUT pls there is no need to paint EV as pure angels that everyone must embrace else something must be wrong with the person. It is definitely alright for people to wait at sideline to see how the technology evolve as this is still relatively new technology. The onslaught of Chinese EVs is to be expected and seems interesting with many new players entering our market. But if one is to pay attention to the China market, it is easy to see that the industry there is quite skewed and not realistic with the kind of excessive support provided by their govt. That is why we are now seeing more EV car makers closing shop as they cannot stay profitable even with the heavy subsidy. As some videos explained nicely, the EV market there is not about good product design or innovation, but more of doing enough to attract new fundings so that the existing investors can be rich and reaped more profit, hoping to be the next unicorns to be exact. The amount of debts they holding is really staggering and I really wonder how much longer they can survive.

So do not see this group of people as naysayers just because they want to be more cautious and are happy with their rides as is.

Being cautious and waiting to see how market evolves is fine. But he's right there are some people coming into EV threads and spewing nonsense about EVs like they know what they are talking about.

You realise BYD sells more volume than Honda or Ford and most of that is China domestic market, they don't even need export market. The reason there are bankruptcies is because of competition. In 2019 there were around 300 EV manufacturers in China, now there are around 100. In 10 years there may only be 20. And you can be sure that the state owned ones GAC SAIC FAW Changan Dongfeng will all be there. How many Japanese car brands can you name?

Just don't buy a Skyworth or 3rd tier brand if scared about manufacturer leaving the market.

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1st Gear
On 1/17/2025 at 5:04 PM, Chipsahoy8919 said:

@Heartlander 

And this is why i am more of a reader than contributor. Avoiding situations like this which sooner or later degrades into name calling and the likes. 

I think the situation is that the EV naysayers actively and intentionally wades into EV related thread spewing out misinformation and advice like they have owned EVs for years to reliably give their 5 cents worth of opinion. I mean one needs not be an owner to give a measured and considered opinion, but from the way I see it, some are borderline 'scams' like saying EVs depreciate 50% in 1-1.5 years when no numbers in the marketplace can ever consistently substantiate such claims. I need not go further as my post earlier today already calls out many of the points that paints EVs negatively but are not 100% true. 

As I said, we do not see EV owners going actively and intentionally into ICE threads to try to convert non-believers to join them but the reverse is happening consistently in this forum thus just taking it upon myself to try and balance things out. 

 

Totally. Annoying to have to argue with some of these ridiculous claims. But myself and many others appreciate real world owner feedback, so thanks for that.

On 1/17/2025 at 5:10 PM, Chipsahoy8919 said:

@Tohto 

Indeed, to me at least, it's the most bang for buck proposition for quality to price for large MPVs in today's marketplace. To draw a reference, one needs to top up $100k for a new Alphard which (again in my opinion) doesn't measure up the D9 in terms of what the car offers. 

Have been seeing more D9s on the road thus I am obviously not the only silly buyer parting with $300k for a China car with dubious resale value and low PARF.  

And for the best validation, even Grab is throwing their hats into the ring with the D9 set to become the next 'luxury' PHV ride ala the king of MPVs, the Alphard! 

At that price I think it's very good value. I'm looking forward to grab also having them for the rare occasion I need to use grab premium 🙂

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