Brake Kit at Stamford?

Icetrap · December 4, 2007

Not much choices in the market for that budget.

Maybe those taiwan brands or maybe wilwoods

1)wilwood

2)VTTR

3)ESpec

Colt_ralliart_ver_r · December 4, 2007

Bro Elfenstar,

Paiseh, me noob... was reading ur post and wanted to clarify...

U mean tat the Civic with only front BBK installed stopped longer than Stock? (I.e. Stock brakes performed better??) And only with all 4 brakes changed, then there is improvement???

Cheers

Elfenstar · December 4, 2007

No need to paiseh. Nothing wrong in wanting to clarify what i said [wave]

Yup. You read it right. Note that it was stock brakes wit EBC greenstuff pads.

Mind you the set of 4 was designed specifically for the ek civic.

Edited December 4, 2007 by Elfenstar

Yc86 · December 4, 2007

Its the caliper pressure settings. This can be different even for diff cars from the same manufacturer. There's nothing you can do except for changing the master cylinder if you want to keep the calipers.

Good car-specific kits do take this into consideration, and most aftermarket BBK's do have ratios in that more pressure is exerted for a given pedal movement. Thats also why they feel better. I'm guessing you're using an OEM 4pot???

Are you sure the master cylinder cannot be upgraded for your car as it involves removing the current one and replacing it with a different unit. If you're driving the swift gti as per your avatar, there should be heaps of options.

Edit: Btw, since you do not have ABS, it would be much easier! Also since you said you like VTTR, I would say go for them if they have a kit for your car. IMHO their calipers are pretty good.

ah.. i see.

Yup it's OEM 4pot, it actually came together with a OEM master cylinder. Tried to get the workshop to fit it but it's too big. The inlet manifold's blocking the way, so what others have done was to relocate the manifold on the other side, which is a big headache.

ok, thanks for your help. [:)]

Yc86 · December 4, 2007

1.7k seems alittle weird.. can anyone confirm the pricing?

From RaceTech booth during SIN.

Even if accident, can the fit claim insurance? [lipsrsealed]

Edited December 4, 2007 by Yc86

Elfenstar · December 4, 2007

Sorry bro. I wish I could be of more help, but without being able to be physically there to look at the space and possibilities I can't help much more than this.

If you're going aftermarket BBK, don't forget to get an adjustable brake proportioning valve and adjust it so that your front brakes lock just before your rears.

Edit: I almost forgot about this as it is a part that rarely comes up. There is this thing called a residual pressure valve. It bolts between the calipers and master cylinder and it maintains a set hydraulic pressure between the calipers and them. I would try and get a 2psi pair that fits between the hardline and hose. It should help. They're actually meant for systems where the master cylinder is below the height of the calipers but have been known to help in these scenarios. Also if it can be done in the GTi raise the pedal height a lil so that if you maintain your normal seating, you'll be pressing just that bit harder.

Edited December 4, 2007 by Elfenstar

Icetrap · December 5, 2007

Have anyone installed their brake kits at Stamford? Which branch was it done? Can share your experience and what to watch out for?

Thanks....

Installing a upgrade brake kit is a very tricky question. Normal people will just plug and play their brake kits (BBK) and do not do much research before buying it.

First of all you need to consider what kind of brakes upgrade you want to do.

1)Upgrading the Brake pads, Retaining Stock Caliper and Disc Rotor Size

2)Upgrading the Brake pads and Rotors, Retaining Stock Caliper and Disc Rotor Size

3)Upgrading the Brake pads, Rotors Size (Example 262mm-282mm), Retaining Stock Caliper

4)Upgrading the Brake pads, Rotors Size (Example 262mm-282mm), Caliper Size

5)Upgrading the entire Brake System with the Big Brake Kit(BBK)

Upgrading the front brake does not means that your car will stop better. Everything plays a part from suspension setup, Friction coefficient of brake pads, weight of cars, Brake pump, etc. You can have AP 8 POT brakes but have bald tyres, it's not going to help.

Note : Everytime You do something to a brake system, it may affect the original manufacturer's spec of brake biasing of a Car. While we can do calculations to determine what the optimum front-to-rear brake bias should be under all conditions, we do not really have the time or money to do this. Most of us here usually like to be on a budget aka Cheap and Good kind of brake system.

I have include a bit of the post I have written before below

Note : Any time that a bigger front rotor is installed, there is a simultaneous

need to decrease the effective clamping force of the caliper (installing smaller pistons is the easiest method) to offset the increased torque created by larger rotor effective radius.

Our cars end up with both bigger rotors and larger pistons which serve to drastically shift the bias even more forward. (AKA your famous nose drive feeling)

So in short, I am not expert but we should be making changes to increase the amount of

rear brake bias. We should make small changes to increase rear bias and this might end up with shorter stopping distances than just having brake brakes in front and lesser nose diving.

If you want to learn more about brake biasing, read on

All about Brake biasing

Let's talk about brake biasing shall we? (It's gets a bit technical thought!) Before I post my 10000 words essay, I should just summaries for the Lazy people

1)I am not an expert and neither claim to be one. Just giving my 2 cents of opinon. :)

2)Upgrading the Front Brake Biasing (Big Brake Kits) might causing stopping distance to increase and the car to nose dive.

3)Upgrading the Rear is recommended but the should not cause the Rear tyre to brake more which may cause our cars to drift like Takumi. (Ok I am kidding)

4)Calculating Brake Biasing and Weight transfer is not an easy Task. We do not have the time and money to do this

5)We are not professional racers and usually mod for the love of it.

Most important Point : Changing the effectiveness of the front brake components without changing the rear brake effectiveness can also cause our brake bias to change

So if you all are still reading, I hoped I have not caused you to sleep

Before upgrading, we need to consider the brake biasing and weight distrubution

Brake Biasing

1)Weight distribution of the vehicle at rest

2)CG height

Edited December 5, 2007 by Icetrap

Protege · December 5, 2007

I am not sure what is your ride. For Civic owners, what they did is for brake upgrade is to firstly get the Stainless Steel Braided Hose to improve brake feel and response. After than is to upgrade the brake pads. Some also change to similar size but upgraded rotors (Slotted). However, if you do all the above, you going to spend quite a bit already and therefore some of them go straight for the BBK.

To me, its your choice. Try to find a ride like yours with either BBK or upgraded pad and rotor and try it out and choose which you prefer.

For brakes, nothing beats trying a real ride feel.

Nohnemwan · December 5, 2007

Were you referring to me? My BBK involved upgrading my master cylinder as well as the proportioning valve and i had a brake specialist adjust the bias.

No.

BS??? Slotted rotors are manufactured to close to min thickness so you can't machine them. Have a read of the instructions on your EBC Greenstuff, one of the requirements is either new rotors or machined rotors.

I checked the instructions. You show me where it says that the rotor MUST (as per your claim in post #41) be replaced with each pad change? For your easy reference, see Q12 on this subject, where the rotor change is merely conditional, not a MUST DO:

http://www.ebcbrakes.com/assets/typicalq%26a.html

When you changed pads, did you check the run-out and thickness of the discs to ensure they were within safe tolerances??? Just because you did not do it and are fine does not mean it was safe. Does not wearing a safety helmet at a construction site and not getting hit mean you're safe??

Yes I observed the mechanic comply with the runout check. The rest of your remarks are speculative nonsense.

BBK's always feel good even if not properly installed simply because of the extra leverage which leads to a better inital bite thanks to the bigger rotors. The extra pistons help with the feel, and they together with the larger surface area help with cooling. However at the end of it all even with all this, what is the point if its going to take longer for you to stop with an improperly upgraded brake system. Have a look at the link i placed in my reply to bro YC86 to understand the basics of brake bias.

My particular BBK produced shorter stopping distances when compared side-by-side against another same model car with stock brakes in our own as-scientific-as-can-be stopping contest at the track. That is good enough proof for me. Just because SOME BBKs produce longer braking distances does not mean that ALL BBKs produce longer braking distances compared to stock.

Protege · December 5, 2007

Thats how I feel too bro!

Anyway, during today's heavy rain, got 1 A@#Hole who do a last minute left turn into a small road at Bukit Timah today. 2 cars were in front of me and I am the 3rd car behind the car which turned. The 1st car behind manage to stop, the 2nd one which is a Lancer did not manage to stop in time and rear ended the first car. I saw the thing very late but my brakes manage to stop in time before I rear end the Lancer.

To me, the BBK is really a good investment and it did prove my point in improving safety! [thumbsup]

Elfenstar · December 5, 2007

Good call [thumbsup]

I just wanted to add one thing to your write up. There is no one fixed best braking bias because at X deceleration force, x bias would be best and at Y deceleration force, y bias would be best. The best thing for a street car would be to have the bias set to rougly 0.9 to 1g of braking which is roughly the limit of street tyres to cater mostly for emergency braking.

Elfenstar · December 5, 2007

I checked the instructions. You show me where it says that the rotor MUST (as per your claim in post #41) be replaced with each pad change? For your easy reference, see Q12 on this subject, where the rotor change is merely conditional, not a MUST DO:
http://www.ebcbrakes.com/assets/typicalq%26a.html

Thats interesting considering the paper instructions that come with the pad says otherwise on needing to machine or change the disc. Anyway slotted rotors MUST be replaced because they are manufactured at close to min thickness and thus cannot be machined and remain at safe standards.

Here a quote on machining...

"what makes machining your disc rotors so important?

A disc rotor is the circular metal plate that your brake pad presses against to stop the car. The smoother the surface of the disc rotor, the more efficient the braking. So when new brake pads are fitted, machining of disc rotors ensures maximum braking efficiency.

After thousands of braking applications disc rotors wear, and usually unevenly. For effective braking, new brake pads should fit flush against the disc rotor. That's why your disc rotors should be machined"

Yes I observed the mechanic comply with the runout check. The rest of your remarks are speculative nonsense.

Disc thickness is speculative nonsense??? Maybe thats why EBC's, Brembo's, Willwood's catelogue's all have a min thickness for their rotors... Maybe thats why all factory rotors have the min thickness imprinted on the rotor too....

My particular BBK produced shorter stopping distances when compared side-by-side against another same model car with stock brakes in our own as-scientific-as-can-be stopping contest at the track. That is good enough proof for me. Just because SOME BBKs produce longer braking distances does not mean that ALL BBKs produce longer braking distances compared to stock.

Did the cars use the same wheels and tyres and were they in the same size? Did they use the same pads? Were you both stopping from the same speed? If no, then how can you say its the BBK and not one of those that shorted the stopping distance???

Nohnemwan · December 5, 2007

Thats interesting considering the paper instructions that come with the pad says otherwise on needing to machine or change the disc. Anyway slotted rotors MUST be replaced because they are manufactured at close to min thickness and thus cannot be machined and remain at safe standards.

You STILL continue to claim that slotted rotors MUST be replaced with every change of pads. But you can't back up that claim with ANY proof (as in perhaps a scan of the paper instructions). On the other hand I supply proof to the contrary that there is no NEED to replace slotted rotors EVERY time the pads are replaced. All you can do about such a fact is say "thats interesting". It is obvious that YOU are the one with a credibility problem, trying to pass off your opinion as fact.

Disc thickness is speculative nonsense??? Maybe thats why EBC's, Brembo's, Willwood's catelogue's all have a min thickness for their rotors... Maybe thats why all factory rotors have the min thickness imprinted on the rotor too....

You clearly don't uderstand the meaning of the word speculative. I was referring to your remarks in post #68 where you made a presumption which was speculative and nonsensical: "Just because you did not do it and are fine does not mean it was safe. Does not wearing a safety helmet at a construction site and not getting hit mean you're safe??"

Did the cars use the same wheels and tyres and were they in the same size? Did they use the same pads? Were you both stopping from the same speed? If no, then how can you say its the BBK and not one of those that shorted the stopping distance???

Do you know the meaning of "as-scientific-as-can-be"? Oh I forget. I can't be driving both cars at the same time when both cars are stopping from the same speed, so maybe the reason my car stopped earlier was because I was driving it and the other car was driven by an idiot. And obviously with a BBK the pads are larger than stock. So I suppose my comparison is now utterly invalid because of such technical impossibilities.

.

Elfenstar · December 5, 2007

I will scan the instructions but then i'm not a brakeshop person so i have to get it first.

Do you honestly think that a pad manufacturer will place different instructions for different rotor types??? You should be reading the slotted rotor instructions and/or measuring them and comparing to the catelogue. If you had measured your ap rotors (which i'm assuming you have since you're using the calipers), and compare it to the min thickness requirements, you will realise they are between 1mm above min thickness and exactly at it. Standard rotors can be machined so there is no need to replace them.

You said speculative in reference to two things. How would i know which one you're referring too? I just took it to be the first point.

My analogy basically states that just because you do not take measures to ensure your safety and nothing happens doesnt mean its safe. I think i can safely say that you did not ensure the bias by fitting an adjustable proportional valve, and if your car has ABS, I think I can safely say that you did not get it reprogrammed to suit.

Are you now saying that your "test" was not sufficiently scientific so your claim that the BBK helped you stopped faster was false??? What I asked was your test sufficient to rule out other factors in stopping distance. In my case, it was the same car, same driver and same wheels and tyres. The difference was in the rotor, pad and calipers. Btw, I wasn't and am not referring to pad size. I was referring to the pad composition as the size has no bearing on the stopping power. The size affects heat aspects of braking.

Yuan · December 7, 2007