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#1

Posted 04 May 2009 - 07:38 PM

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Hyundai Avante & Kia Cerato Forte, both are using the same platform, same engine, and same steering system. If I am not wrong the suspension system is the same too with macpherson struts in front and telescopic with springs at the rear. However, the Avante is using multi-link as a rear axle whereas the Forte is torsion beam. We know that torsion beam are a cheaper way to manufacture cars and wishbone or multilink is better in terms of performance and ride comfort. Can the pros and gurus here shed some light on axle designs, which is better and in what terms are they better?

Torsion beam rear axle:
Toyota Altis, Vios, Estima
Chevrolet Aveo
Kia Cerato Forte
Mazda 2
Mitsubishi Lancer EX

Multi-Link/Independant wishbone:
Honda Civic FD, CRV
Hyundai Avante
Mazda 3, 6
Mitsubishi Lancer CS3

#2

Posted 04 May 2009 - 08:45 PM

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Hyundai Avante & Kia Cerato Forte, both are using the same platform, same engine, and same steering system. If I am not wrong the suspension system is the same too with macpherson struts in front and telescopic with springs at the rear. However, the Avante is using multi-link as a rear axle whereas the Forte is torsion beam. We know that torsion beam are a cheaper way to manufacture cars and wishbone or multilink is better in terms of performance and ride comfort. Can the pros and gurus here shed some light on axle designs, which is better and in what terms are they better?

Torsion beam rear axle:
Toyota Altis, Vios, Estima
Chevrolet Aveo
Kia Cerato Forte
Mazda 2
Mitsubishi Lancer EX

Multi-Link/Independant wishbone:
Honda Civic FD, CRV
Hyundai Avante
Mazda 3, 6
Mitsubishi Lancer CS3


Lancer EX also using multi-link suspension for rear.

Torsion beam set up cannot do rear wheel alignment in case bang against kerb or pot hole.


#3

Posted 06 May 2009 - 02:11 AM

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Opel Astra also use Torsion Beam...I think...

nevertheless, it is how balanced the overall suspension is designed. by right independent suspension ensure that if one wheel hit a rough patch, it will not affect the other wheel since they are not connected, thus better comfort. some says torsion beam has better road holding, it is just like adding a thick strut bar or anti-roll bar to your 'independent' suspension...

but in reality, you should feel the car for yourself. If double wishbone design is always superior, then you might as well say the old Honda Concerto is more comfortable and better handler than Forte or AStra or many modern cars...which is not true. It is not simply the type but the design and tuning of the car to fit the local road. The structure rigidity also play a big part.




#4

Posted 06 May 2009 - 04:07 AM

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I think the advantage of torsion beam, like you have said is the low cost. But it is lighter and need less space....especially good for a roomier and more usable interior space in a smaller car.

The multi-link on their hand is good in absorbing the bumps and road holding.

I feel how well a car drive depend a lot on using the right application.

#5

Posted 06 May 2009 - 09:35 AM

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Cars with Multi Link or Wishbone also crashed, as compared to Torsion beam setup.

EU cars like to stay with Torsion beam and Japs like to use Multi-link. Very dependent on the designers experience in Chasis setup.



#6

Posted 06 May 2009 - 09:52 AM

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Just sidetracking a bit...

Is that a parrot on your avatar? laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif

Good one thumbsup.gif a twist on the kangaroo
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#7

Posted 06 May 2009 - 10:02 AM

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torsion beam saves more space which can be used for the boot.

that is definite.

#8

Posted 06 May 2009 - 10:38 AM

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just compare the civic type R , the JDM VS UK (FIT type-R ?)... JDM uses multilink , the uk- torsion bar . the JDM goes faster around the circuit faster than the UK version , multilink has better rear tyre control . the torsion bar is cheap and good , for manufacter to produce and space for boot . in terms of adjustablilty and track use - zero . there is a race version of the uk type-R , they had to redesign the rear suspension to replace the torsion bar to be competitive . recently , i seen a swift had to change the rear torsion bar/suspesion because it was bent . the camber was out of spec . if you use the car for normal transport , either are good . for dual purpose track and road ... go multilink .
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#9

Posted 06 May 2009 - 12:13 PM

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Point to note ... not all muti link are double wishbones...but all double wishbones are multi link. Double wishbones are the best form of multilink with most number of degree of freedom.

#10

Posted 06 May 2009 - 12:27 PM

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In fact, many european small hatches uses torsion beam, like Citroen C4/Xsara, Pug 206/207, Opel Astra etc.. One of the main reason is cheap and good, plus it saves space. Is it inferior compare to multi-link system? Might not.. Just put the above cars wif equivalent Jap on a track (stock) and compare..

#11

Posted 06 May 2009 - 12:38 PM

Picanto
torsion beam less complicated. less costly to replace in an accident.

#12

Posted 06 May 2009 - 12:55 PM

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In fact, many european small hatches uses torsion beam, like Citroen C4/Xsara, Pug 206/207, Opel Astra etc.. One of the main reason is cheap and good, plus it saves space. Is it inferior compare to multi-link system? Might not.. Just put the above cars wif equivalent Jap on a track (stock) and compare..


If the performance of torsion beam is = independent suspension such as mult-link, don't you think high performance cars like WRX, EVO, F1 will used torsion beam instead? gossip.gif

#13

Posted 06 May 2009 - 01:01 PM

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If the performance of torsion beam is = independent suspension such as mult-link, don't you think high performance cars like WRX, EVO, F1 will used torsion beam instead? gossip.gif


Well one of the reasons they don't is because torsion beam setup cannot be used on drive wheels, i.e. not applicable for 4WD cars.

The bottom line is this: multi-link does offer greater scope for fine-tuning than torsion beam. But it boils down to who's going the tuning. A well-tuned torsion beam setup will beat a badly-tuned multi-link setup any time.

#14

Posted 06 May 2009 - 02:08 PM

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A quick summary of various vehicle suspension:
Reference: http://www.yorozu-co...nsion/index.htm

MacPherson strut
This suspension derives its name from the engineer who developed it, Earl S. MacPherson.
In this suspension the upper point of the strut, that has a shock absorber with spring is installed to the body and the lower point is installed to the axle housing or spindle.
The lower arm is connected between the axle housing and the body.
There are two varieties of lower arm. I type and A type because of its shape. It is also known as Transverse Link.
Merits:
As the upper point of shock absorber is high there is little error in the alignment of wheels.
It is inexpensive, as there are very few components.
More space is available for the engine, because of few components.
Demerits:
Some ride comfort may be lost, as it is hard to move smoothly because of bending input force due to the deviation between the strut and input load axis.


Double wishbone
This suspension has a pair of upper and lower arms. Each arms are installed to the body and axle housing. It is so named because the original arm resembled the V shaped breastbone of a bird (a wishbone).
Merits:
It is possible to increase the handling stability, as the suspension stiffness is high and the degree of freedom to control the wheel alignment change and the vehicle's posture is more. Its connection or assembly to a suspension member aids the suspension stiffness and the isolation of NVH.
Demerits:
The structure is complicated as there are many parts, is costly and has lot of weight. Due to the large space required for its installation, the engine room available is less.


Multi link
It has four or five links per wheel, that are connected between the body and axle housing. In many cases, links are installed to a suspension member, as in the double wishbone, but not to the body directly. Generally suspension members are installed to the body by four points. Since the suspension of Mercedes-Benz 190 was named "Multi link" in 1980, cars with the suspension called "Multi link" has been introduced in the Japanese market.
Merit
It is possible to increase the handling stability more easily than the double wishbone, using the most appropriate layout for multi links.
Demerits:
The structure is complicated as there are many parts, is costly and heavy when compared with the double wishbone suspension.


Torsion beam
Trailing arms are installed between the body and wheels and the right and left trailing arms are connected by a cross beam. This cross beam is called a "torsion beam" because it takes the torsion of the car's suspension during cornering etc. There are many types based on the position of installation. The most popular "torsion beam" is a cross beam that is located at the center of arms and is called as "center beam" or "coupled beam".
Merits:
Lot of space is available as there aren't many parts. It is possible to tune the handling stability by combining the cross beam stiffness and the bushing of trailing arm.
Demerits:
A pendulum like rotary motion of the whole suspension could occur as the assembled section of the trailing arm takes the whole lateral force from tires. It worsens the handling stability.



#15

Posted 06 May 2009 - 03:37 PM

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It depends on how you develop it....go read about the torsion beam equipped Renault Megane R26.R and R26 which is the best hot hatch on this planet and the fastest front drive car on the track...check out the youtube videos on how it set the fastest lap time of any front drive car on the Nurburgring...there was an article that pitted the R26(230bhp) against a BMW M6(500bhp) and it was proven the R26 goes around corners faster with its astonishing traction, whereby you can get on the power earlier ...needless to say it is all due to its chassis needless to say the Civic FD Type R with its double wishbone is no match for it too...

#16

Posted 06 May 2009 - 08:37 PM

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It depends on how you develop it....go read about the torsion beam equipped Renault Megane R26.R and R26 which is the best hot hatch on this planet and the fastest front drive car on the track...check out the youtube videos on how it set the fastest lap time of any front drive car on the Nurburgring...there was an article that pitted the R26(230bhp) against a BMW M6(500bhp) and it was proven the R26 goes around corners faster with its astonishing traction, whereby you can get on the power earlier ...needless to say it is all due to its chassis needless to say the Civic FD Type R with its double wishbone is no match for it too...


Two thought came to my mind...

1) M6 being 400kg heavier, would not takes on corner as well as the lighter R26.R

2) If R26.R were to use independent rear suspension instead of torsion beam, might just shave a few more sec off the lap time. happy.gif

#17

Posted 06 May 2009 - 08:58 PM

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It depends on how you develop it....go read about the torsion beam equipped Renault Megane R26.R and R26 which is the best hot hatch on this planet and the fastest front drive car on the track...check out the youtube videos on how it set the fastest lap time of any front drive car on the Nurburgring...there was an article that pitted the R26(230bhp) against a BMW M6(500bhp) and it was proven the R26 goes around corners faster with its astonishing traction, whereby you can get on the power earlier ...needless to say it is all due to its chassis needless to say the Civic FD Type R with its double wishbone is no match for it too...


Thats not a fair apples to apples comparison....Hot hatch Vs Grand tourer...Might as well compare those cars within the same class but different suspension types...maybe like the EK9?
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#18

Posted 06 May 2009 - 09:02 PM

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Well one of the reasons they don't is because torsion beam setup cannot be used on drive wheels, i.e. not applicable for 4WD cars.

The bottom line is this: multi-link does offer greater scope for fine-tuning than torsion beam. But it boils down to who's going the tuning. A well-tuned torsion beam setup will beat a badly-tuned multi-link setup any time.


Agree, eventually it boils down to tuning. Whether it's torsion beam or wishbones is transparent. We feel only the tuning.

#19

Posted 07 May 2009 - 11:46 AM

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I just want to illustrate that torsion beam although cheaper than multi link need not necessarily be inferior. It is inferior in theory and on paper but in the real world, it isn't that simple. It doesn't matter what class of cars I am comparing cos my comparison is limited to the suspension designs only. Just want to illustrate that the fastest front drive production car on the track is using torsion beam. In fact it can be more expensive to produce and develop depending on how much R n D is spent and the materials used. I am sure the Renault R26 torsion beam cost a lot more to develop and produce than say the multi link of the civic 1.8, lancer Ex, etc. Cost production is also dependent on development cost and not just material cost alone. I have heard of some people who changed their mind abt buying a car when they find out that its using torsion beam, I think they should not bother abt the paper specs and focus on feel of it.

#20

Posted 07 May 2009 - 02:16 PM

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Well one of the reasons they don't is because torsion beam setup cannot be used on drive wheels, i.e. not applicable for 4WD cars.

The bottom line is this: multi-link does offer greater scope for fine-tuning than torsion beam. But it boils down to who's going the tuning. A well-tuned torsion beam setup will beat a badly-tuned multi-link setup any time.

Torsion beam can be applied on 4WD system, in fact, plenty of small hatches like Mitsubishi Colt, Honda Jazz/Fit are available in 4WD configuration in Japan for winter purpose.

There is no single design that can meet the best in every aspect, often time it comes down to what is our design purpose: Cost or performance? Cars like Lamborghini and Ferrari where cost is not an object will squeeze the best into their design.

Actually torsion beam is very forgiving in slow corner hence making tires last longer.


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