Bullied by Pinoy at work

[Mkl22]

this i agree with you 100%

 

 

personally i think all PRs should do NS or something like it if its possible

 

 

But the reality is if that was the law then we would find it even harder to get FTs. Who would come knowing they would have to do NS? Remember WE need them more than they need us. Theres other countries competing with us for these FTs.

 

The other issue is increasingly we are needing/bring in more higher skilled/qualified FT's and many of these would be too old for NS.

 

 

But I agree with you if someone is a PR they should be prepared to defend Singapore. Maybe some kind of reservist thing could be done.

 

NS is for nation building and I think it does a good job. But remember PRs are NOT citizens. Their re-entry permit is dependant on them working. no job and they can lose PR. They also can not buy landed property. Their status is not the same as citizens. Certainly if someone becomes a citizen they should be prepared to do NS.

 

 

the FTs that are really usefully and contribute are a minority. i mean foreign talents and not foreign labour. i would say maybe 30% are useful to singapore. the rest are just imported crap that use singapore as a stepping stone to elsewhere. This is most prevalent in our local universities where we welcome with open arms all these talents who just want to put "Singapore Inc" into their resume to show the US or EU employers that they have been screened and determined to be good by the Singapore Govt. But why do these trash want to come here in the 1st place if they are that good? its because of all the freebies and begging from the Singapore govt to invite them here. by bring such lousy people here, the brand is diluted.

Edited June 17, 2011 by Mkl22

[Kyrios]

oh please! take a look in the mirror - You, me, all of us are immigrants to singapore.

 

 

We are all 1st, 2nd or 3rd generation immigrants!

 

 

So you believe current generation of PRC immigrants are so different to your grandfather? or great grandfather?

 

 

come on.

 

Unless your a malay fisherman (the original indigenous people of singapore) YOU OR YOUR FAMILY ARE IMMIGRANTS TO SINGAPORE

 

 

This is like smokers who after they quit become the most ardent anti-smokers....

 

This sudden anti immigration mentality is screamingly hypocritical coming from a population who are made up soley of sons/daughters of immigrants

 

U are utterly wrong bro..back then..most asian countries did not have their own identity, most were colonised by european forces..

 

after the europeans and yanks left, slowly each national identity be it philippines, vietnam or singapore, is forged. We from Singapore especially, have combined 4 major races into one singapore identity. So suddenly you force in other countries people and want us to call them brothers..definitely hard to swallow..

 

And these folks from other countries can suddenly switch allegiance? Makes you wonder what else they are capable of..

 

 

[Wishcumstrue]

the FTs that are really usefully and contribute are a minority. i mean foreign talents and not foreign labour. i would say maybe 30% are useful to singapore. the rest are just imported crap that use singapore as a stepping stone to elsewhere. ..

 

This is a fact and everyone in the world knowns that. LKY knows, the retired civil-servants at coffee shop knows.

Problem is Badder seems to ignore this even obviosly had seen this having hired both local and foreigners in his career.

It puzzles me by he remains clueless about Singaproean's sentiment...

 

When thousands of foreigners willingly sell themselves to Singapore every year, and yet he claims "WE (Singapore) need them more than they need us..." I wander who he is speaking for??

 

 

 

 

[Mecontle]

Ya. all immigrants. but i do NS. so that makes it different. why should i waste 2.5years of my life doing it full time and the liability for up to 40days a year. and in the end get treated same as a PR or a foreigner. remember these people do have a country they call home to go back to.

 

same same bro we r from the same farking 2.5yr NS era, last yr gana 2 ict total 15 days, some more bei zao liao 2.4 cannot meet 12min liao, rt awaits every year si bei sian

 

[Badder]

 

 

The govt literally invited these so-called foreign talents here with zero cost to these "talents".

lol you want them to pay? why would they come if it was unattractive to do so. Of course we invited them - we need them

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Badder]

No, we do not need these FTs more than they need us.

We need to develop local talents (LT).

 

Importing FTs is a short term solution that must not be abused, else when their numbers soar (like what is happening in SGP now), it will lead to social problems (when the numbers of FT outnumber the local population, and the established social structure is challenged.)

 

The Singapore government must understand and clarify, are they here to serve the interest of SINGAPORE, or the SINGAPORE PEOPLE?

Are they so misguided and running SINGAPORE like a company, where they view the citizens as "employees"? Where they implement policies for the apparent benefit of Singapore Inc, regardless of the welfare of the Singapore people? To replace us Singaporeans with more capable FTs?

Are we second class citizens in our own homeland??

 

 

I appreciate the sentiment and challenges (i feel it too) but the fact remains we need them.

 

we simply do not have enough citizens to fill the jobs we have. our industry and its growth has been too sucessful. in economics if you dont grow you die. basic tenant.

 

check out the mom stats on employment - v interesting, puts thing in clear perspective.

 

 

[Meepok87]

No, we do not need these FTs more than they need us.

We need to develop local talents (LT).

 

Importing FTs is a short term solution that must not be abused, else when their numbers soar (like what is happening in SGP now), it will lead to social problems (when the numbers of FT outnumber the local population, and the established social structure is challenged.)

 

The Singapore government must understand and clarify, are they here to serve the interest of SINGAPORE, or the SINGAPORE PEOPLE?

Are they so misguided and running SINGAPORE like a company, where they view the citizens as "employees"? Where they implement policies for the apparent benefit of Singapore Inc, regardless of the welfare of the Singapore people? To replace us Singaporeans with more capable FTs?

Are we second class citizens in our own homeland??

Developing local talents? we are facing problems of ageing population. The reason why they import is bcos, singaporeans do not give birth enough.

 

Thats why they got to import, to boost consumption, production, GDP, tax, reserves, money.

 

If they wait for the local talents to develop, they wont have any chance of achieving growth at such a fast rate.

 

Thats why they caused the dissentment/anger from the citizens.

 

Its not a simple thing to say or do, as it involves moneys, the amount of profit and $$ they earn.

[Badder]

Dear Badder,

 

I don't know whether to cry for or laugh at you on the above a comments.

 

Reason is you sounded so dilutional and confused with immigration and what nationhood is about!

 

Take your sudden reference about so-called "all 1st, 2nd or 3rd generation immigrants".

Haven't you realised each gen differences can be as great as night & day?

Taking a bad case in is UK South-Asian communities.

Do you know 1st gen South-Asian Britains don't like to mix with Indians who had recently migrated to UK? Sad but true.

 

Another is about nationhood:

Again, you had avoided sharing which nationality you are since you have vested interest and enjoy its security for some many years Singapore.

Why?

I dare to assumed that you having personally worked and moved to so-many countries, you probably had lost that sense of belonging to a homeland.

Correct me if I have wronged you here.

 

 

Lastly, and most importantly:

 

Please, do yourself a favour: Quit lecturing Singaporean for being "spoilt and largely politically and economically ignorant"

It is easy for one to say "yeah, I agree PR should NS yada yada..."

But we know, if one need the gain that respect, we need to walk the talk. Simple right?

 

I hope you appreciate this Singaporean perspective.

 

 

ive tried to debate with logic, but I guess i can understand some find it hard to keep emotion out of it.

 

I come to this debate as a businessman, a business owner. Businesses (despite what some here think) is what keeps the country going - and the fact is our businesses CAN NOT GET STAFF!

 

Talk to many business owners and you will hear the same story.

 

without staff you cant do business.

 

1) Do i think Singapore is going to change due to the large influx of FTs? - Definitely yes

2) Do I worry that it will change for the worse - Definitely yes

3) Do I think we are better off not having them and leaving the jobs our industy and economy relys on empty? Definitely definitely NOT

 

 

we need to smart here not emotional. we need to look maturely at the vital needs of our industry. we must of course balance that with our social needs - of course. Such a large infux of FTs will change singapore socially -it cant fail to. We have to be smart and aware enough to bend like the bamboo, to adapt these people, to adapt ourselves, to adapt our society so that we all come out of this stronger NOT weaker.

 

They are here to stay for as long as we need them. more may well be needed. we have choices to bitch moan and create tension/hatred and end up with a society deeply divided - or we go into this with our eyes open and brains switched on. we have a challenge to welcome these people while retaining whats best about singapore. I believe that our racial diversity is one of our biggest strengths.

 

your point about some asian groups overseas actually make my point exactly. they were 'allowed' not to integrate. and that is the result. our gov is smart and the race quota system is there for that reason. But you only have to read these posts to see that we are already singling them out. we have an opertunity not to make it 'them and us" and all the extreme nationalism thats started now is not going to help anyone integrate.

 

 

 

[Badder]

Again, Badder, are you back-tracking your anti-nationalism comment made.

It does not work well to your credential here.

 

its written in my post - go read it. Often people are only able to take on extreme positions. black and white, nationalistic or anti - nationalistic. It speaks volumes that you assume by me preaching against extreme nationalism that i must be anti- nationalistic. When the truth of the matter is i believe i have the correct amount of nationalism. not too much not too little.

 

Wow, love and tolerances?

Why not you consult the miss-understandings between Pinoy/OT's workplace experience?

 

Let's not forget, you also preached about "singapore is more 'chinese' than malay.....this is where I fail to understand why you keep harping on ethnicity? Why?

 

 

I have no idea what point your trying to make here now. i suspect you dont really have one - you just want to argue and make this debate about personalities and me rather than about FTs

 

 

And please try not to write in red. i was brought up being told its not nice to write in red.(blood/death)

 

 

 

[Badder]

This is a fact and everyone in the world knowns that. LKY knows, the retired civil-servants at coffee shop knows.

Problem is Badder seems to ignore this even obviosly had seen this having hired both local and foreigners in his career.

My belief is based on my experience as a business owner. Its based on the opinion of every business owner friend i have. Do you run a company? Have you run a company? This government is doing EXACTLY what industry is demanding. Industry needs PEOPLE. There arent enough citizens to fill the jobs. This is a fact - not my opinion.

 

When thousands of foreigners willingly sell themselves to Singapore every year, and yet he claims "WE (Singapore) need them more than they need us..." I wander who he is speaking for??

 

 

Its a fact that we have a record low unemployment rate.

 

ERGO we do not have any people left to fill NEW JOBS ! get it?

 

How many new jobs were created over the last 2 years? how many new jobs do we still need to create to increase our gdp from tourism? go find out and then tell me we dont need anyone to do those jobs.

 

 

the argument that some FTs are useless in some cases can be true (just as some citizens are useless) but the fact remains id rather employ partly useless people to do a job than close my company because i dont have enough staff. Local bosses are not stupid. they dont employ wasters for long. if they do then thats their fault as much as it is the FTs.

 

As i said if this is to work we have to be smart here. we have to make sure we dont create bad social state by alienating FTs, If we feel too many FTs are useless then its up to us (singaporean business owners and management) to put tighter controls on who we employ and throw out those that dont perform. If we feel our society habits and character are being eroded for the worse we need to make sure we practice them even more so singapore keeps its character. We need to be an island with a strong enough character that it can welcome FTs who can contribute to our society without losing our identity and without creating deep social divides.

 

 

Edited June 17, 2011 by Badder

[Albeniz]

Majority of local grads would not join the industry after graduation. No prize for guessing correctly. The flood gate to FT/FWs is opened and look at the ridiculous low wage that local has to endure.

 

I jumped out of this "sinking" ship long ago. Heng arh....

 

Thinking back, I should have just taken the easier route, study biz ad or accountancy right at the beginning. But then, I was heeding gahment advice to go into engineering.

 

Yeah... They made engineering looked so prestigious that you needed excellent grades to get into this faculty.

And then they pawn you by opening the flood gates to cheap FTs.

Edited June 17, 2011 by Albeniz

[Wishcumstrue]

ive tried to debate with logic, but I guess i can understand some find it hard to keep emotion out of it.

I come to this debate as a businessman, a business owner. Businesses (despite what some here think) is what keeps the country going - and the fact is our businesses CAN NOT GET STAFF!

 

Talk to many business owners and you will hear the same story.

 

 

Dear Badder,

 

I am curious, with all the self-appraising about being a businessman, while claiming to represent the business community and know-it all attitude that a "country needs business" to survive monologue , you seems to forget about its Citizens...how strange...

 

In your long nice-sounding statements, did you realise I begin to see things in your thinking that you might not had realise all your career life: You seem to place Citizens as a secondary concern driven by your "emotionless business-centric mind" , dare I say, egotistical outlook ?

 

Sorry if you find this personal, but I am just sharing with you the emotive aspect of the Forum.

 

As about your query about my business experience, well let's say I don't own a business and nor do I know a single sh*t about running business Am just an average employee salary man....are you going to talk me down about how to run a country and be concern with your business's prospect?

 

Does that make me a lesser-being in your logical business-centric eyes?

You don't have you reply to me on this. You just need to ask this within your heart.

 

 

Okay, keeping this short for the benefit of our readers, allow me to summarise my earlier request to you:

 

Bradder, I don't care about your business accomplishment nor how you think Singapore should be run.

All I care about, I repeat, is your nationality. Batter still, if you had a chance to serve NS.

 

Simple enough?

 

PS: I love the color of deep red, so I choose it in all my forum write ups.

If you have trouble accepting that due to your upbringing, well, that's your problem, not mine.

 

Accepting "diversity", remember?

[Slowman]

 

Dear Badder,

 

I am curious, with all the self-appraising about being a businessman, while claiming to represent the business community and know-it all attitude that a "country needs business" to survive monologue , you seems to forget about its Citizens...how strange...

 

In your long nice-sounding statements, did you realise I begin to see things in your thinking that you might not had realise all your career life: You seem to place Citizens as a secondary concern driven by your "emotionless business-centric mind" , dare I say, egotistical outlook ?

 

Sorry if you find this personal, but I am just sharing with you the emotive aspect of the Forum.

 

As about your query about my business experience, well let's say I don't own a business and nor do I know a single sh*t about running business Am just an average employee salary man....are you going to talk me down about how to run a country and be concern with your business's prospect?

 

Does that make me a lesser-being in your logical business-centric eyes?

You don't have you reply to me on this. You just need to ask this within your heart.

 

 

Okay, keeping this short for the benefit of our readers, allow me to summarise my earlier request to you:

 

Bradder, I don't care about your business accomplishment nor how you think Singapore should be run.

All I care about, I repeat, is your nationality. Batter still, if you had a chance to serve NS.

 

Simple enough?

 

PS: I love the color of deep red, so I choose it in all my forum write ups.

If you have trouble accepting that due to your upbringing, well, that's your problem, not mine.

 

Accepting "diversity", remember?

 

 

That explained why new HDB price at S$880K .. lol.. Maybe should ask bladder if you cannot get local to fill your company post, first question is did you surpressed the salary?

 

Everytime I drove pass a road where FW works on the road, I will see one digging the ground, the other holding the bloom and the third standing there. So that what we called one man working 2 men looking. If they are paid said (in term of total cost which include levy) S$ 1000 per person, I believed 1 singaporean can do this 3 men's job. But is the company willing to pay S$3000 to a local for that? Is the same output though.

 

Many a time, businesses complaint cannot get local but as you dig deeper, they are the one out of touch on the cost of living.

[Wishcumstrue]

Many a time, businesses complaint cannot get local but as you dig deeper, they are the one out of touch on the cost of living.

 

I am not sure how business owners really care much about its customers or bothered about their social obligations. Fact is business exist for solely for monetary profit and only answerable to shareholders.

 

If every business owner in Singapore share similar attitude towards unbridled employment of FT/FL (as claimed by Badder) for higher margins, then something has to give.

 

Who to paid for that price ? Will this be at the expense of social stability and nation cohesion?

 

We already see those signs and Singaporean know that and has clearly spoken on 7 May.

 

More foreigners as a solution for business need? Let's read this threat title again before we forget where we belong.

 

The choice is for Singaporean to make.

[Ronnieseah]

we should only import pinoy with C-cup & can CIM.

[Wishcumstrue]

This is strangely familiar....FT/FL no enough!

 

[Ryosuke]

I am not sure how business owners really care much about its customers or bothered about their social obligations. Fact is business exist for solely for monetary profit and only answerable to shareholders.

 

If every business owner in Singapore share similar attitude towards unbridled employment of FT/FL (as claimed by Badder) for higher margins, then something has to give.

 

Who to paid for that price ? Will this be at the expense of social stability and nation cohesion?

 

We already see those signs and Singaporean know that and has clearly spoken on 7 May.

 

More foreigners as a solution for business need? Let's read this threat title again before we forget where we belong.

 

The choice is for Singaporean to make.

 

True,but business is not a charity.

every business man would want to keep the overhead low,sgp market is too competitive for any sector.

 

their mindset is simple especially to SMEs,

"i rather employ cheaper foreign worker and get more profits rather than earning less to accommodate this so called 'social responsibility to employ locals'

who is going to pity me when s*it comes and have some cashflow problem.if my company would have to be wound up.will any singaporeans on the street pity me?will the government pity me?no."

 

[Wishcumstrue]

True,but business is not a charity.

every business man would want to keep the overhead low,sgp market is too competitive for any sector.

 

their mindset is simple especially to SMEs,

"i rather employ cheaper foreign worker and get more profits rather than earning less to accommodate this so called 'social responsibility to employ locals'

 

That is where the government's R&R is.

 

To re-dress the excess towards pro-business-at-all-expense that we have witness for the last decade.

 

Business is business. Make profit and people happy - there should be a balance.

 

After all, even our dear Badder-the-Businessman agree that "the secret to happiness and success is balance"...plus in his definition includes a healthy load of ca$h and mojo!

( See here)