Are We Ready for Electric Car, Safety & Environmental Aspect

[Carbon82]

A few interesting articles for bedtime reading...

 

Electric cars pose new challenges to firefighters

 

In one training exercise, the NFPA set seven high-voltage batteries on fire, including lithium ion and nickle-metal-hydride batteries, in mock cars and had fire fighters put them out with water. In all instances, it was totally acceptable and safe. The only caveat to that, Klock said, is that it can take thousands of gallons of water over a long period of time to bring the battery down to a safe temperature, meaning fire crews will need a sustained water supply from either a hydrant or two trucks full of water.

 

"If you can't establish a sustained water supply, there's a high likelihood the battery will reignite," Klock said. "You won't be doing any good if you don't have enough water to cool down the battery and extinguish it."

 

The threat of re-ignition goes well beyond when fire crews leave the scene. Similar to trick birthday candles, a lithium ion battery can catch fire hours, days or even weeks after it has been brought down to a normal temperature.

 

 

Are Electric Vehicles a Fire Hazard?

 

“Early Data Suggests Collision-Caused Fires Are More Frequent in the Tesla Model S than Conventional Cars”). They are also just the latest examples of lithium-ion battery fires in electric vehicles—we’ve seen fires with the Chevy Volt and Fisker Karma plug-in vehicles.

 

However, lithium-ion battery cells themselves can sometimes generate enough heat to ignite the electrolyte in a process known as thermal runaway. Short-circuits between the two electrodes in a battery cell, for example, can heat up the electrodes. If these electrodes get too hot, the heat can trigger chemical reactions that quickly generate more heat until the electrolytes burst into flame. This seems to be what happened in the Tesla fires, when damage to the battery packs caused short-circuits leading to thermal runaway.

 

“If the Tesla pack is abused severely by a large metal object thrust through the pack, it will probably have a fire in most instances,” Dahn says.

 

 

What To Do When Your Electric Car Catches On Fire

 

But during charging, the batteries can get very, very hot. If the connections come loose on batteries, an arc can form which could also cause a fire. We've also seen an accident that compromises the integrity of the battery pack can cause a fire.

 

Some water might put out the fire briefly, but it won't extinguish it. The insides, or innards, if you will, of the battery (typically a lithium ion battery) are still hot. In the past, it was said to not use any water on a lithium battery fire, because the metal contained within required an expensive extinguisher. Now, water plays an important role in extinguishing the fire: It cools the battery. Cooling the battery reduces the chances that the fire will reignite.

 

Battery fires are notoriously fickle and can take nearly 24 hours to be fully extinguished. So even if the fire ends, it can restart on its own. You also need to make sure that the first responders know that the car is electric. They see a lot of car fires, but not many electric car fires. It'd be a good idea to let them know exactly what they're dealing with so they can respond appropriately.

 

 

Emergency Response to Incident Involving Electric Vehicle Battery Hazards

 

Fire Service personnel are accustomed to responding to conventional vehicle fires, and generally receive training on the hazards associated with vehicle subsystems (e.g., air bag initiators, seat belt pre-tensioners, etc). For vehicle fires, and in particular fires involving electric drive vehicles, a key question for emergency responders is: “what is different with electric drive vehicles and what tactical adjustments are required?”

 

The overall goal of this project is to conduct a research program to develop the technical basis for best practices for emergency response procedures for electric drive vehicle battery incidents, with consideration for certain details including: suppression methods and agents; personal protective equipment (PPE); and clean-up/overhaul operations. A key component of this project goal is to conduct full-scale testing of large format Li-ion batteries used in these vehicles. This report summarizes these tests, and includes discussion on the key findings relating to best practices for emergency response procedures for electric drive vehicle battery incidents.

 

Full guides can be downloaded from NAFA (US) website. I hope to see similar effort by our SCDF too...

Part 1

Part 2

Part 3

Part 4

Part 5

[Matrix0405]

Does Li-on need oxygen to burn? 

Those Pirus, Honda Vezel Hybrid all using NiMH battery? 

 

 

Edited October 21, 2017 by Matrix0405

[kdash]

Does Li-on need oxygen to burn?

Those Pirus, Honda Vezel Hybrid all using NiMH battery?

not sure about Honda, but most Toyota hybrids using NiMH currently.

[Hamburger]

It really buffle me to see that lithium ion battery can explode upon overcharging.

 

There is no safety precaution measure that can prevent this?

 

We are not talking about cina made ebikes leh....

[flashbang]

Forgot one very important aspect.... money aspect. Have the various agencies done studies on how to milk electric cars for more tax? Last time LTA gabra over the tesla emissions...

[Carbon82]

It really buffle me to see that lithium ion battery can explode upon overcharging.

 

There is no safety precaution measure that can prevent this?

 

We are not talking about cina made ebikes leh....

On the move now, so cannot quote some actual articles for reference.

 

As far as manufacturers (batteries and automotive) concerns, they have already put in-place engineering control to prevent overcharging, both within the batteries and charger, as well as control in the product (similar as in our phone / laptop) to limit temperature and operating current to a certain level before it will trigger the thermal run off...

 

But as with any electronic devices, failure may happen, and once any of these engineering controls fails, it will be disaster. Just look at recent reported case of fires resulting from mobile phones and PMDs (the one at Bt. Batok almost burn the whole HDB flat down...)

 

To put things in perspective, a typical handheld vacuum cleaner, power tool and our laptop used up to 6 AA size battery in the battery pack (the safety limit till date is not more than 7 cells) and even so, people has been raising safety concerns with the battery. For EV and PHV, to enable it to cover hundreds of miles, we are talking about hundreds to even thousands of batteries cell within the vehicle and it will not be hard to imagine the impact of a fire!!

 

In my course of work, I have the chance to deal with Li-ion batteries (and that is why I can share so much info on the hazards), and many of the above I mentioned have been trial and tested. Never under estimate the risk of battery fire is my only advice. Trust me, it is a very different kind of fire situation...

Edited October 22, 2017 by Carbon82

[Leafable]

 

A few interesting articles for bedtime reading...

 

Electric cars pose new challenges to firefighters

 

In one training exercise, the NFPA set seven high-voltage batteries on fire, including lithium ion and nickle-metal-hydride batteries, in mock cars and had fire fighters put them out with water. In all instances, it was totally acceptable and safe. The only caveat to that, Klock said, is that it can take thousands of gallons of water over a long period of time to bring the battery down to a safe temperature, meaning fire crews will need a sustained water supply from either a hydrant or two trucks full of water.

 

"If you can't establish a sustained water supply, there's a high likelihood the battery will reignite," Klock said. "You won't be doing any good if you don't have enough water to cool down the battery and extinguish it."

 

The threat of re-ignition goes well beyond when fire crews leave the scene. Similar to trick birthday candles, a lithium ion battery can catch fire hours, days or even weeks after it has been brought down to a normal temperature.

 

 

Are Electric Vehicles a Fire Hazard?

 

“Early Data Suggests Collision-Caused Fires Are More Frequent in the Tesla Model S than Conventional Cars”). They are also just the latest examples of lithium-ion battery fires in electric vehicles—we’ve seen fires with the Chevy Volt and Fisker Karma plug-in vehicles.

 

However, lithium-ion battery cells themselves can sometimes generate enough heat to ignite the electrolyte in a process known as thermal runaway. Short-circuits between the two electrodes in a battery cell, for example, can heat up the electrodes. If these electrodes get too hot, the heat can trigger chemical reactions that quickly generate more heat until the electrolytes burst into flame. This seems to be what happened in the Tesla fires, when damage to the battery packs caused short-circuits leading to thermal runaway.

 

“If the Tesla pack is abused severely by a large metal object thrust through the pack, it will probably have a fire in most instances,” Dahn says.

 

 

What To Do When Your Electric Car Catches On Fire

 

But during charging, the batteries can get very, very hot. If the connections come loose on batteries, an arc can form which could also cause a fire. We've also seen an accident that compromises the integrity of the battery pack can cause a fire.

 

Some water might put out the fire briefly, but it won't extinguish it. The insides, or innards, if you will, of the battery (typically a lithium ion battery) are still hot. In the past, it was said to not use any water on a lithium battery fire, because the metal contained within required an expensive extinguisher. Now, water plays an important role in extinguishing the fire: It cools the battery. Cooling the battery reduces the chances that the fire will reignite.

 

Battery fires are notoriously fickle and can take nearly 24 hours to be fully extinguished. So even if the fire ends, it can restart on its own. You also need to make sure that the first responders know that the car is electric. They see a lot of car fires, but not many electric car fires. It'd be a good idea to let them know exactly what they're dealing with so they can respond appropriately.

 

 

Emergency Response to Incident Involving Electric Vehicle Battery Hazards

 

Fire Service personnel are accustomed to responding to conventional vehicle fires, and generally receive training on the hazards associated with vehicle subsystems (e.g., air bag initiators, seat belt pre-tensioners, etc). For vehicle fires, and in particular fires involving electric drive vehicles, a key question for emergency responders is: “what is different with electric drive vehicles and what tactical adjustments are required?”

 

The overall goal of this project is to conduct a research program to develop the technical basis for best practices for emergency response procedures for electric drive vehicle battery incidents, with consideration for certain details including: suppression methods and agents; personal protective equipment (PPE); and clean-up/overhaul operations. A key component of this project goal is to conduct full-scale testing of large format Li-ion batteries used in these vehicles. This report summarizes these tests, and includes discussion on the key findings relating to best practices for emergency response procedures for electric drive vehicle battery incidents.

 

Full guides can be downloaded from NAFA (US) website. I hope to see similar effort by our SCDF too...

Part 1

Part 2

Part 3

Part 4

Part 5

 

 

Obviously you never own an EV before. I have since 2012. Its a Nissan Leaf. And now a Volvo XC90 T8 (sadly not fully electric). Every time you plug the car for charging the battery cooling aircon will kick in almost immediately. Apart from Nissan Leaf which don't have battery cooling system. Almost all EV have the same cooling system including Tesla which will prevent the battery over heating and prolong the battery life. Again EV battery fire staring malarky is the last thing we need to worry about or overly caution.

[Carbon82]

Obviously you never own an EV before. I have since 2012. Its a Nissan Leaf. And now a Volvo XC90 T8 (sadly not fully electric). Every time you plug the car for charging the battery cooling aircon will kick in almost immediately. Apart from Nissan Leaf which don't have battery cooling system. Almost all EV have the same cooling system including Tesla which will prevent the battery over heating and prolong the battery life. Again EV battery fire staring malarky is the last thing we need to worry about or overly caution.

 

Hi pal, don't get me wrong, I am not saying EV are not safe, but the results from a battery fire is far more hazardous than one from a gasoline driven vehicle. Auto manufacturers are known to have put in place several engineering control to their EV, such as the cooling system you mentioned, heat resistance compartmentation separating the battery pack, extra reinforced battery pack housing (to minimise fire risk during an impact), fail safe program to cut off charging / usage when temp and/or operating current exceed the safety limits and so on, BUT as with any device / equipment / appliances, there are always chances of failure.

 

Using the latest accident involving a taxi and Mclaren at Yishun 2 days ago, looking at the aftermath, the Mclaren would have burst into flame if it is an EV with battery pack housed in the middle of the car, since the battery pack will be subjected to great impact from the crash. The pack maybe safe enough to prevent thermal runaway reaction, but can it withstand say heat (say fire resulted from a collision) and impact from external source? Food for thoughts...

 

 

Edited October 24, 2017 by Carbon82

[Watwheels]

Why not first deal with the exhausted battery packs?

 

What recycling companies to thoroughly break down the batteries and dispose the toxic and heavy metals properly? Are they here already?

 

Aren't we just creating another form of waste and pollution?

 

I'm not buying the electric car green BS that it does to save the environment. It's just marketing BS. Period. And whatever our govt is promoting I read with a pinch of salt.

[Victor68]

Maybe in the near future, they will have sensor to disconnect any short circuit in car that will not cause over heating just like protection in home. Fuses are not the best protection. For battery, then some spray like our commercial sprinkler system or FM 200 to dose off or cool off over heating battery. Yes, elect car is and will be the next big thing but not in the next 10 years.

[Carbon82]

Why not first deal with the exhausted battery packs?

 

What recycling companies to thoroughly break down the batteries and dispose the toxic and heavy metals properly? Are they here already?

 

Aren't we just creating another form of waste and pollution?

 

I'm not buying the electric car green BS that it does to save the environment. It's just marketing BS. Period. And whatever our govt is promoting I read with a pinch of salt.

 

That is actually the other concern I have mentioned in the 1st post (point no. 4). This is what available on NEA website, and it sort of tell the full story of where we are today...

 

Batteries

Since 1 June 1992, Singapore has imposed restrictions on the mercury content in mercury oxide, zinc carbon and alkaline batteries. Local sale of batteries exceeding the stipulated mercury content is not allowed. Used batteries can hence be safely discarded along with normal household waste at our waste-to-energy incineration plants. The plants are equipped with pollution control equipment to remove pollutants and ensure that the emissions meet the standards prescribed in the Environmental Protection and Management Act. Notwithstanding, the use of rechargeable batteries is encouraged to reduce the quantity of batteries thrown away.

 

Why Recycle Batteries

Batteries are made up of mostly metals. Recycling batteries helps to conserves our earth’s precious natural resources. Recycled material is used to make new products. This reduces the need to mine virgin raw materials from the earth, which are limited in supply. Reducing the need for mining also lowers pollution, as the process of mining has an impact on our environment.

 

Currently, only laptop and mobile phone battery recycling services are available. (There are no recycling services for other types of common household batteries.) You are encouraged to recycle your laptop and mobile phone batteries at recycling points voluntarily offered by manufacturers and retailers of these products. Public recycling services for other types of batteries are currently not available. Lead-acid batteries are classified as Toxic Industrial Waste and must be treated as such.

 

So what about Li-ion batteries? For those that think EV are still new and uncommon on our road, you are wrong. NEA has been conducting trial of EV since some 6 years ago, using RD plate, Mitsubishi i-MiEV, followed by EMA with Nissan Leaf & Renault Fluence ZE, and more recently a fleet of 100 BYD E6 taxi (and a couple of 10 units for Grab/Uber use), and soon EV car sharing (80 units in the plan) in Dec this year...

 

Edited October 25, 2017 by Carbon82

[Lanky]

Not sure is this is a concern. I am wondering if automakers that design the EV takes into proper consideration of EMF radiation shielding for its occupants.

 

Passengers will be exposed to it on a daily basis and the amount of exposure depends on the usage of the EV.

[Leafable]

Hi pal, don't get me wrong, I am not saying EV are not safe, but the results from a battery fire is far more hazardous than one from a gasoline driven vehicle. Auto manufacturers are known to have put in place several engineering control to their EV, such as the cooling system you mentioned, heat resistance compartmentation separating the battery pack, extra reinforced battery pack housing (to minimise fire risk during an impact), fail safe program to cut off charging / usage when temp and/or operating current exceed the safety limits and so on, BUT as with any device / equipment / appliances, there are always chances of failure.

 

Using the latest accident involving a taxi and Mclaren at Yishun 2 days ago, looking at the aftermath, the Mclaren would have burst into flame if it is an EV with battery pack housed in the middle of the car, since the battery pack will be subjected to great impact from the crash. The pack maybe safe enough to prevent thermal runaway reaction, but can it withstand say heat (say fire resulted from a collision) and impact from external source? Food for thoughts...

 

 

 

You don't even need to crash to cause fire with a petrol car.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/10/24/mclaren-supercar-worth-1m-goes-flamesin-residential-street/

[Carbon82]

You don't even need to crash to cause fire with a petrol car.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/10/24/mclaren-supercar-worth-1m-goes-flamesin-residential-street/

 

For your information, Mclaren P1 is a hybrid.

 

 

I don't wish to speculate how the fire started, but still would like to emphasis that handling EV / Hybrid car fire, especially those using Li-ion batteries, is a different ball game, and extra understanding / awareness and effort should not be undermined.

 

It is worthwhile to note that USA NFPA started to evaluate safety issues with Li-ion batteries in electric cars 5 years, about the same time we started a series of trial on EVs in Singapore, but did our SCDF, NEA, BCA, etc. etc. perform similar study in their respective area, such as emergency response, usage and disposal, storage and building safety?

 

Click here for the NFPA report, titled: Fire Fighter Safety and Emergency Response for Electric Drive and Hybrid Electric Vehicles. A good read to me, as some of the issues highlighted are really an eye opener.

 

What firefighters need to know about electric car batteries

 

The issue of lithium-ion batteries is not new to the NFPA. Almost five years ago, it began to look at the issue of lithium-ion batteries in electric cars. This research included a series of tests on vehicles with lithium-ion batteries. One of their conclusions was clearly stated in the following excerpt from that report.

 

“In each of the six full-scale burn tests, firefighters at the test site found that they needed to flow large amounts of water on the batteries, because fire kept flaring up even after it appeared to be extinguished. In one test, a battery fire reignited 22 hours after it was thought to be extinguished.

 

“‘Everything looked normal,’” recalled Andrew Blum, a researcher at the firm Exponent, which conducted the tests. ‘When we looked at the battery through a thermal imager, everything was back to ambient temperatures; the fire was extinguished as we would define it. But there was something going on internally in the module, and we just couldn’t tell.’ In two of the tests, firefighters ran out of air and had to switch tanks because of the length of time it took to fully extinguish the battery, according to Blum.”

 

The takeaway from the experts:

- Wear full PPE and SCBA.

- Identify the type of vehicle involved — standard vehicle, EV, HEV, HF, etc.

- Use a thermal imaging camera to help with the 360 size-up.

- Establish an appropriate incident command structure.

- Establish tactical priorities (fire, extrication, victim care).

- Stabilize the vehicle.

- Power down, if possible.

- Secure a large, continuous and sustainable water supply — one or more fire hydrants or multiple water tenders.

- Use a large volume of water such as master stream, 2 ½-inch or multiple 1 ¾-inch fire lines to suppress and cool the fire and the battery.

- Consider that this could be a combined fire, extrication and hazmat incident.

- Have sufficient fire personnel and apparatus on scene for an extended operation to monitor the battery’s heat or possible re-ignition.

- When turning the vehicle over to a wrecker or towing company, brief their personnel on the hazards.

- If possible, follow the wrecker to the storage area, and place the battery-powered vehicle in a space away from other vehicles, buildings or combustibles.

 

Especially true for the last sentence, about placing battery-powered vehicle away from other vehicles, buildings or combustible material. If you often drive pass the Ubi stretch on PIE (towards Changi), you will notice that there is a big open space carpark used for housing accident / damaged vehicle, and not hard to imagine the consequences if one of them is an EV, and fire started out of no way after it was left there for a period of time... ...  

Edited October 26, 2017 by Carbon82

[pi3142]

There are many formulas of lithium used in batteries , not like NiMH. Some would have better performance, some would be more dangerous. Industry just had to choose those which are not too dangerous formula and cheap to make.

Edited October 26, 2017 by pi3142

[Leafable]

 

For your information, Mclaren P1 is a hybrid.

 

I don't wish to speculate how the fire started

 

"It is thought the fire might have been caused by a fuel leak from the hypercar, which has an electric hybrid engine."

 

"In July, the driver of a McLaren supercar that was reduced to a twisted wreckage when it crashed on a country road and burst into flames" And this is a 570s a non-hybird full pertrol supercar.

 

Thats your possibility. You are more likely to get burn by fuel than battery.

[kdash]

There are many formulas of lithium used in batteries , not like NiMH. Some would have better performance, some would be more dangerous. Industry just had to choose those which are not too dangerous formula and cheap to make.

 

i think more $$$ considerations than safety. 

[Carbon82]

Dear @leafable, I have been trying to avoid a heated debate with you with regards to your assumption that EVs are safer than conventional gasoline / diesel powered vehicle, by clearly stating what my safety concerns are all about, with many supporting articles. Taking the tagline from our nation SGSecure program: Not If But When. A fire with EV will happen one day, and when that day come, will we be adequately prepared, not only with minimizing damages to properties (the car involved and surrounding building / vehicles / installations), but also in ensuring that people involved (firefighters / emergency responders, driver / passengers in the car, onlooker / passerby) are kept as safe as possible?

 

From what you have posted so far in this thread, I am guessing that you are one of the interested party, especially when you mentioned you used to drive a Nissan Leaf and now a Volvo XC90 T8, which both are not available for public use or purchase, but corporate users and/or government agencies. This is none of my concern, but your belief that EV are much safer than conventional vehicles, thus warrant NO extra attention to the additional hazards and risks I have highlighted, are worrying. And if our government agencies adopt the same view, then I would say we are asking for trouble. Fail to Plan = Plan to Fail!

 

I have done my part, through starting this thread to raise awareness of MCFers to the concerns with batteries in EV / PHV, as well as writing to our SCDF on the same topic (hopefully I shall not be seen as a whiner / government basher). While waiting patiently for their reply, I shall continue my sharing of the other safety & environmental concerns with batteries. Please do refer to the screen shots below for evidences of my official communication with SCDF. Have a nice day pal.  

 

 

Full content of my feedback:

Edited October 26, 2017 by Carbon82