Aloysius Pang dies after SAF trg Ex in New Zealand

[BenTong]

But we are the only ones or one of the only few to have a conscript army without and existential threat.

Spoken like a true Malaysian or an Indonesian. What threat ?

[Philipkee]

Sad but true indeed bro.

 

So this case who to blame? The trainer in the Land Rover? He managed to escape from this incident right?

For the trainer, I am not sure about where he was but if you look at the picture, the driver's side was crushed while the v com side was relatively unscathed so it was possible both were in shock but the v com side was crushed and he escaped but the driver couldn't.

 

Who to blame? I cannot say without all the facts. Since thr driver is the smallest fry and he is working under orders it is also unfair to blame him.

 

Up the chain of command, the V com definitely has responsibility cos he guided the rover to that position. Beyond that I cannot say. Cos the v com is not your ordinary NSF but a regular captain if I heard correctly. And a captain should have the cow sense to know what to do.

 

As for the bionix chaps I am not armour trained but unless there was a breach of an SOP or obvious negligenre, I would not be inclined to blame them. Cos if you order me to do an emergency reverse and suddenly shout "stop" which is not part of the drill, I don't know if my reflexes will be fast enough to jam brake assuming i heard the instructions clearly the first time.

Edited February 12, 2019 by Philipkee

[Philipkee]

Spoken like a true Malaysian or an Indonesian. What threat ?

I already acknowledged Adrianli point. There are some things I thought of saying but it belongs to another thread so I stop here.

[DACH]

[laugh]

 

You think Singapore can suka suka tell other countries what to do? And you think they will listen [laugh]

Unless they are criminals and terrorists, what’s stopping these countries from taking in Singaporeans?

And on what basis that the Singapore govt should stop them if they are importing foreigners from other countries as well?

Really absurd.

[Lethalstrike]

The poor chap just sat in the Land Rover for 9 secs and waited for the tank to reverse onto it, assuming that the tank will stop?

 

Most people would just jump car already isn't it?

I think the poor chap really assumed that the bionix will stop. Or he is trying to engage the reverse gear but maybe stalled when panicking. The old LR Defender not known to be the easiest to drive with the shit gearshift and clutch....

[Othello]

Why they never state whether comms is ok or not?

[Leo72]

Why they never state whether comms is ok or not?

They're trying to close the case without getting too many people involve. Ask too many questions means more people will be involve lar...  Don't stir lar... 

[Lethalstrike]

 

https://www.todayonline.com/singapore/liu-kais-death-bionix-driver-did-not-hear-repeated-orders-stop-reversing

 

External Review Panel on SAF Safety (ERPSS)

 

The members of the External Review Panel on SAF Safety are:

Mr Heng Chiang Gnee [Chairman]

Director, MMA Offshore Ltd

Chairman, Workplace Safety and Health Council (Apr 2016 - Mar 2018)

 

Ms Kala Anandarajah

Partner, Head Competition and Antitrust and Trade, Rajah and Tann Singapore LLP.

 

Mr Chan Yew Kwong

Director (Special Duties), Occupational Safety and Health Division, Ministry of

Manpower

 

Mr Chia Ngiang Hong

Group General Manager, City Development Ltd

 

Associate Professor Chui Yoon Ping

Head of Programme (Human Factors in Safety), School of Science & Technology,

Singapore University of Social Sciences

 

Associate Professor Goh Yang Miang

Department of Building, School of Design and Environment, NUS

 

Brigadier-General (NS) Ishak Ismail

Director Business Development (Asia Pacific), BAE Systems Hagglunds AB

 

Associate Professor Lim Beng Chong

Division of Strategy, Management & Organisation, Nanyang Business School

 

Professor Lim Shih Hui

Senior Consultant Neurologist, National Neuroscience Institute & Singapore General

Hospital

 

Mr Ajay Mishra

Vice President Risk and Safety Management, SATS Ltd

 

Dr Jukka Takala

President, International Commission on Occupational Health (ICOH)

 

Mr Yam Ah Mee

Chief Executive Officer, SembCorp Design and Construction Pte Ltd

 

 

 

In my humble opinion the external panel on SAF Safety is really a joke.

 

You telling me eg Mr Yam Ah Mee has the intimate knowledge and independent understanding of the SOP of our specific military division, the short-comings of our land rover and Bionix, the weather condition that may affect transmission of commands etc

 

Majority are part of the establishment and are not truly independent.

 

 

 

 

My point is NOT to criticize our authorities BUT here is the greatest opportunity for them to make what was previous "wrong" right just before election BUT they have to waste it again.

 

Then again our public will accept it wholesale without doubts.

Wah lan... group GM from real estate developer CDL also can sit on this external review panel?

 

Yam Ah Mee only know how to announce elections results lah. How to advise on SAF safety?

[SuPerBoRed]

Wah lan... group GM from real estate developer CDL also can sit on this external review panel?

 

Yam Ah Mee only know how to announce elections results lah. How to advise on SAF safety?

Yam Ah Mee was Air Force chief of staff... probably the only one qualified.

[Fcw75]

I think the poor chap really assumed that the bionix will stop. Or he is trying to engage the reverse gear but maybe stalled when panicking. The old LR Defender not known to be the easiest to drive with the shit gearshift and clutch....

I hope he was not waiting for the trainer to give command before jumping off the vehicle.

 

Anyway, this is what I found:

 

 

As the Bionix reversed, the Land Rover was initially not in its path.

"The COI found that the Bionix had ‘drifted’ in reversing and the driver made a slight steer to correct the drift. This steer brought the Land Rover into the path of the Bionix,” said Dr Ng.

“Almost immediately” after the Bionix started reversing, the rear guide issued stop commands repeatedly into his helmet set, said Dr Ng. But, the Bionix continued to reverse.

“The COI found that the rear guide issued stop commands into the intercom of his helmet set when the Bionix started reversing and did so repeatedly,” Dr Ng added. “The intercom of the helmet is the rear guide’s only means of communication with the other crew members in the Bionix. However, the Bionix continued to reverse.”

The video recording from within the Land Rover showed the trainer “tapping” CFC Liu and signalling for him to reverse the Land Rover, said Dr Ng.

“From the beeping sounds, it also indicated that CFC Liu did engage the reverse gear,” he said. “Both the trainer and CFC Liu also shouted and gestured with their hands for the Bionix to stop and the trainer also attempted to reach for the handset of the radio set to communicate with the Bionix crew.”

Close to eight seconds after Bionix started reversing, it reversed into the Land Rover and mounted the driver's side before coming to a stop.

While the trainer managed to extricate himself, CFC Liu remained trapped. The trainer notified the conducting officer of the exercise, who immediately ordered the exercise to stop.

[Roh96]

The poor chap just sat in the Land Rover for 9 secs and waited for the tank to reverse onto it, assuming that the tank will stop?

 

Most people would just jump car already isn't it?

What will most drivers do when they see a heavy truck rolling backward towards their car? First instinct is to press the horn, next is immediately engage reverse gear. Right?

And we are talking about 1 car length and less than 8 sec response time. Although the speed is much slower compared to Bionix case.

Edited February 12, 2019 by Roh96

[Fcw75]

What will most drivers do when they see a heavy truck rolling backward towards their car? First instinct is to press the horn, next is immediately engage reverse gear. Right?

And we are talking about 1 car length and less than 8 sec response time. Although the speed is much slower compared to Bionix case.

Don’t think it’s 1 car length.

 

19.8m is about 4 to 5 car length.

[Lethalstrike]

Yam Ah Mee was Air Force chief of staff... probably the only one qualified.

I beg to differ man. In SAF, the higher you are the less you know of the operational risks on the ground.

I hope he was not waiting for the trainer to give command before jumping off the vehicle.

 

Anyway, this is what I found:

 

 

As the Bionix reversed, the Land Rover was initially not in its path.

"The COI found that the Bionix had âdriftedâ in reversing and the driver made a slight steer to correct the drift. This steer brought the Land Rover into the path of the Bionix,â said Dr Ng.

âAlmost immediatelyâ after the Bionix started reversing, the rear guide issued stop commands repeatedly into his helmet set, said Dr Ng. But, the Bionix continued to reverse.

âThe COI found that the rear guide issued stop commands into the intercom of his helmet set when the Bionix started reversing and did so repeatedly,â Dr Ng added. âThe intercom of the helmet is the rear guideâs only means of communication with the other crew members in the Bionix. However, the Bionix continued to reverse.â

The video recording from within the Land Rover showed the trainer âtappingâ CFC Liu and signalling for him to reverse the Land Rover, said Dr Ng.

âFrom the beeping sounds, it also indicated that CFC Liu did engage the reverse gear,â he said. âBoth the trainer and CFC Liu also shouted and gestured with their hands for the Bionix to stop and the trainer also attempted to reach for the handset of the radio set to communicate with the Bionix crew.â

Close to eight seconds after Bionix started reversing, it reversed into the Land Rover and mounted the driver's side before coming to a stop.

While the trainer managed to extricate himself, CFC Liu remained trapped. The trainer notified the conducting officer of the exercise, who immediately ordered the exercise to stop.

So he did engaged the reverse gear on standby already while gesturing the Bionix to stop. I guessed everything happened in a flash and he can't jump out or reverse the Rover in time!

[Watwheels]

At one point when the regular sign up rate was low, they tried to balance it by making the NS men role and ranks similar to that of regulars. That was when the promotion of NSmen started very quickly.  Before that promotion of NSmen was never heard of, the OC, 2IC and all PCs were all LTA, and the CO mostly CPT. 

 

It was after that exercise that we started seeing Commanders of NS units promoted and wearing the same rank as active commanders. It is not that they picked some NS men to promote in the absent of regulars. They did it on purpose to balance the image and responsibilities of the NS units. 

 

Between a private and a LCP, that is a PFC (private first class), not every men ORD as LCP. All the balance private in my unit was promoted to PFC 3 months before we went ORD. In other words, no one ORD as a private, but not true that they sld ORD as LCP. 

 

 

Oh I see. But during my time the "first class" ranks do not exist. Before my gen yes the "first class" privates and first class CPL existed but it was later removed during my time and after that they brought it back again. For my unit and vocation all men are promoted to LCP before they ord. There shouldn't be any privates around. So I dont think it's a true or not fact but we were serving at different times and unit.

[Fcw75]

I beg to differ man. In SAF, the higher you are the less you know of the operational risks on the ground.

So he did engaged the reverse gear on standby already while gesturing the Bionix to stop. I guessed everything happened in a flash and he can't jump out or reverse the Rover in time!

So is it the trainer fault?

 

Liu Kai was probably waiting for order to reverse or to jump.

[Galantspeedz]

Oh I see. But during my time the "first class" ranks do not exist. Before my gen yes the "first class" privates and first class CPL existed but it was later removed during my time and after that they brought it back again. For my unit and vocation all men are promoted to LCP before they ord. There shouldn't be any privates around. So I dont think it's a true or not fact but we were serving at different times and unit.

When you ord

[Tianmo]

Oh I see. But during my time the "first class" ranks do not exist. Before my gen yes the "first class" privates and first class CPL existed but it was later removed during my time and after that they brought it back again. For my unit and vocation all men are promoted to LCP before they ord. There shouldn't be any privates around. So I dont think it's a true or not fact but we were serving at different times and unit.

 

I dont know if they removed and brought back the "first class" thingy, but as far as I can recall, it is always there, or mayb they dont use it any more these days.  As to the part on promotions, I guess vocation and education before enlistment also play a part. 

 

I think all Guardsman ORD minimum as PFC ( as a requirement), but most SIR infantry soldiers dont, they just ORD as Privates. Commandos also ORD minimum CFC I think, thought most of them leave as SGT ( 3rd class).  I have seen once, a batch  of Armour infantries all CPL and their section commander a CFC. That one they told me because Mindef screwed up and posted a whole batch of  "A" levels   there instead of sending them to Sispec, so ended up all given CPL though they were all "men'.

 

So far i think most support units will ORD minimum LCP, at least I think signals and medics do.  You signaller or medic?     

[Kopites]

I dont know if they removed and brought back the "first class" thingy, but as far as I can recall, it is always there, or mayb they dont use it any more these days. As to the part on promotions, I guess vocation and education before enlistment also play a part.

 

I think all Guardsman ORD minimum as PFC ( as a requirement), but most SIR infantry soldiers dont, they just ORD as Privates. Commandos also ORD minimum CFC I think, thought most of them leave as SGT ( 3rd class). I have seen once, a batch of Armour infantries all CPL and their section commander a CFC. That one they told me because Mindef screwed up and posted a whole batch of "A" levels there instead of sending them to Sispec, so ended up all given CPL though they were all "men'.

 

So far i think most support units will ORD minimum LCP, at least I think signals and medics do. You signaller or medic?

Me medic and rod as 3rd Sgt.

 

Reservist as pte because didn't bother to sew ranks on still wearable uniform.

 

Bo da ji..throughout all my ict.

Edited February 12, 2019 by Kopites