I don't understand Mandarin

[Crispicrispi]

Ok OK he is shrewd.

[Wishcumstrue]

Correct me if I am wrong, all emperors that rule china from Qin Dynasty (First emperor of China, Qin Shi Huang (or Shi Huangdi) 秦 始 皇 帝) to the last emperor of Qing Dynasty, 溥儀 are all northern Chinese. The Northern Chinese always think higher of themselves and they call the Southerner as

[Acieed]

Right and wrong, depending on the context of the time it happened.

 

The Manchus such as 溥儀 were deemed foreigners during Sung Dynasty - they are the foreign tribes from the North East who later created "Jin". They are not Chinese until two dynasties later in Ming when North East becomes part of China, and the Manchu's one of the minority race in China.

 

Qin Shi Huang's race during Zhou were not considered Chinese, because they were not direct descendent of Zhou and Shang, but minority tribes from the South-West (today's Sichuan, a region isolated by high mountains). They later became a significant race only during Warring States. At this time, the concept of "Chinese" was only the central plains along Yellow River where ancient Shang and Zhou were developed 3000-4000 years ago.

 

Between Qin Shi Huang and 溥儀, China has been ruled by numerous foreign regimes - Monggols, Khitan, Xianbei, Jin, Hun / Xiongnu (some historians even suggest connections of them with toay's Hungarians) etc. especially in the North. These people eventually blended and formed into the modern Chinese race, and had significant influence on the Mandarin language.

 

Amongst the Han rulers, Tang's Li family was considered half foreigner. Ming's ruler was from the South, as in Anhui, not Canton or Fujian, which is not common. Most Chinese rulers came from the Central Plains, the historical cultural and political center. There is a story about how Ming's founder had built an extended wall around the city of Xi'an, because he wants to trap the "dragon's breath" in the Central Plains to prevent an uprising from the place that produced the most Emperors.

 

The South (江南） referred by some Bro's earlier as being the people who were wealthy are actually people in the Shanghai-Anhui-Zhejiang region where prominent businessman were, even till today. The far south such as Canton and Fujian were mostly peasants until a certain time, sea trading was more prosperous with the Silk Route by Sea. Maybe around Sung. At this time, China has also already extended influence into South East Asia with many trading, military and political outposts in Khmer and Borneo. Something like the CIA today.

 

In short, the Chinese race has evolved over 5000 years, taking in a lot of foreigners and foreign culture to become what is known as "Chinese" today.

 

Correct me if I am wrong, all emperors that rule china from Qin Dynasty (First emperor of China, Qin Shi Huang (or Shi Huangdi) 秦 始 皇 帝) to the last emperor of Qing Dynasty, 溥儀 are all northern Chinese. The Northern Chinese always think higher of themselves and they call the Southerner as “Southern Barbarian” 南 夷/ 南 蠻. Majority of the top ranking court official and military commanders are also people from the North.

Edited October 13, 2011 by Acieed

[Wishcumstrue]

In short, the Chinese race has evolved over 5000 years, taking in a lot of foreigners and foreign culture to become what is known as "Chinese" today.

 

Generally speaking, Han Chinese (汉人)

[Acieed]

Something interesting to share to those who are arguing on what's mother tongue and what's not, what's Chinese and what's not, North Chinese, South Chinese, East Chinese, American Chinese, whatsoever.

 

Would you believe if I tell you that, Li Bai (李白）, the famous Chinese poet was not born in China if we look at today's map but in Kyrgyzstan ? Is he an ang moh ? During Tang, Kyrgyzstan was a part of Tang's territorial boundaries.

 

If one don't politicize the language too much, then one will just appreciate the language and culture for what it is. If I recall correctly, President Chirac of France can recite Li Bai's poems better than most Singaporean Chinese.

 

[Jpcc]

Right and wrong, depending on the context of the time it happened.

 

The Manchus such as 溥儀 were deemed foreigners during Sung Dynasty - they are the foreign tribes from the North East who later created "Jin". They are not Chinese until two dynasties later in Ming when North East becomes part of China, and the Manchu's one of the minority race in China.

 

Qin Shi Huang's race during Zhou were not considered Chinese, because they were not direct descendent of Zhou and Shang, but minority tribes from the South-West (today's Sichuan, a region isolated by high mountains). They later became a significant race only during Warring States. At this time, the concept of "Chinese" was only the central plains along Yellow River where ancient Shang and Zhou were developed 3000-4000 years ago.

 

Between Qin Shi Huang and 溥儀, China has been ruled by numerous foreign regimes - Monggols, Khitan, Xianbei, Jin, Hun / Xiongnu (some historians even suggest connections of them with toay's Hungarians) etc. especially in the North. These people eventually blended and formed into the modern Chinese race, and had significant influence on the Mandarin language.

 

Amongst the Han rulers, Tang's Li family was considered half foreigner. Ming's ruler was from the South, as in Anhui, not Canton or Fujian, which is not common. Most Chinese rulers came from the Central Plains, the historical cultural and political center. There is a story about how Ming's founder had built an extended wall around the city of Xi'an, because he wants to trap the "dragon's breath" in the Central Plains to prevent an uprising from the place that produced the most Emperors.

 

The South (江南） referred by some Bro's earlier as being the people who were wealthy are actually people in the Shanghai-Anhui-Zhejiang region where prominent businessman were, even till today. The far south such as Canton and Fujian were mostly peasants until a certain time, sea trading was more prosperous with the Silk Route by Sea. Maybe around Sung. At this time, China has also already extended influence into South East Asia with many trading, military and political outposts in Khmer and Borneo. Something like the CIA today.

 

In short, the Chinese race has evolved over 5000 years, taking in a lot of foreigners and foreign culture to become what is known as "Chinese" today.

Pretty good writeout on a very brief summary of China, Acieed.

 

It really depends on when the time of reference and the elastic geographical frontier of China in the different dynasties.

 

Shanghai was only wealthy for the past 100-150 years after Treaty of NanKing (1842) when china was forced to open five ports (SH is one of them) for trading.

 

Many centuries before that, JiangNan Suzhou , AnHui and Zhejiang produced many scholars and consultants (绍兴师爷).

Edited October 13, 2011 by Jpcc

[Wishcumstrue]

If one don't politicize the language too much, then one will just appreciate the language and culture for what it is. If I recall correctly, President Chirac of France can recite Li Bai's poems better than most Singaporean Chinese.

 

IMHO, human being IS a political animal coz' anything He touches, think, eat, sh*t, sleep and f*ck are all political

 

Exihibit#1: Look at the photo below, do we think the agenda is about Chinese poem/calligraphy or ....politics

 

[Acieed]

No doubt, Human is a political animal doesn't mean the language has to be politicized. Chirac was already a student of Chinese poetry before he was President. Now, whether he used this as a political advantage in his position as President of France, is a different matter altogether.

 

IMHO, human being IS a political animal coz' anything He touches, think, eat, sh*t, sleep and f*ck are all political

 

Exihibit#1: Look at the photo below, do we think the agenda is about Chinese poem/calligraphy or ....politics

 

 

[Jpcc]

Tang dynasty is one of the most open door dynasty in china history.

 

I don't think we should touch on han race though. It is a very complex topic.

 

The assimilative (is there such a word ? :p) nature of chinese in absorbing/ influencing other cultures and evolving into their own again is unrivaled by other ancient civilisation. (you name it, Indian, babylonian, Egyptian, Hellenistic,...).

[Crispicrispi]

Simple.

 

When we meet with China or Taiwan Chinese, if they can speak English, they are 1 UP, if we can't speak Mandarin, we are 1 DOWN.

 

If with angmoh, if they can speak Mandarin, they are 2 UP, we can't speak Mandarin, we are 2 DOWN.

 

丢人显眼 that is, unspoken truth.

[Acieed]

You would realize that the notion of "Han Chinese" has also evolved over the years. Of course, before Han dynasty it didn't even exist. Tang's rulers were a partly Xianbei race from North West (foreigners), would you call them Han or non-Han ? Most of these foreign races 1000-2000 years ago through cultural assimilation don't exist today, and are blended into what is known as "Han Chinese" today.

 

Generally speaking, Han Chinese (汉人)

 

[Happily1986]

You would realize that the notion of "Han Chinese" has also evolved over the years. Of course, before Han dynasty it didn't even exist. Tang's rulers were a partly Xianbei race from North West (foreigners), would you call them Han or non-Han ? Most of these foreign races 1000-2000 years ago through cultural assimilation don't exist today, and are blended into what is known as "Han Chinese" today.

 

Thats why the elderly folks described themselves in dialect as "deng lang" Tang Ren

[Requiemdk]

You recognised Cantonese as your mother tongue is your problem.

 

I know my dialects, as schools stated Chinese as mother tongue, it can't be wrong for Singaporean Chinese. Even my great grandfather knew how to speak dialect + Mandarin (though not very fluent), and read newspaper back then.

 

Why is that a problem? And why does it seem like your understanding is that fluency in Cantonese often precludes fluency in Chinese? In fact, most of the younger... ok, not that young but not that old folk whom I know who are fluent in their dialect are also pretty damn fluent in Mandarin. FYI, people who are truly fluent can read/write the usual Mandarin characters in Cantonese/Hokkien.

 

I happen to know a bit about how terms like "mother tongue" came about and therefore don't put much stock in what schools or officials tell me about what my "mother tongue" is. FYI there was a sort of plan recently to hold language enrichment classes in certain schools to teach Chinese dialects, though I have not heard about what happened to it.

 

To me at least, Hokkien and Cantonese are the dialects that link me to my ancestors as I used to communicate with my grandparents with them, and that is why I identify with them rather than Mandarin. Mandarin to me is nothing more than another business language, like English. Even though I can, I don't see why I have to read the newspapers in Chinese (to say nothing of the quality of the Chinese news here these days). Then again, I shouldn't talk about this. I hardly bother with the local newspapers, English or otherwise.

 

OT a bit: Like all languages, Chinese and definitely English too has its beauty and complexities and I find it odd whenever someone beats his chest and proclaims the superiority of one language over another. English however has suffered a lot of degradation in certain aspects - people like to use the word "emo" nowadays, but think of how many other words could have more accurately and emphatically expressed their emotional state.

Edited October 13, 2011 by Requiemdk

[Scion]

Generally speaking, Han Chinese (汉人)

 

 

there's a research which said if Han Chinese refers to the descendants of Han Dynasty, there will be no pure Han Chinese living in the world today

 

because of the numerous genocides of Han Chinese by the nomadic tribes (especially the chaotic periods after Tang Dynasty and during Yuan Dynasty) and the inter-marriage between Han Chinese and the minorities

 

the 2 chaotic periods mentioned above almost saw the extermination of Han Chinese..

the historical books described as high as 80% of the population in "central plains" were killed, and large hectares of lands were empty without a single soul

Edited October 13, 2011 by Scion

[Acieed]

Lin Chueh Min

http://www.eastasianstudies.com/eastasian/5921_02.htm

 

Another Fujian R

[Acieed]

The next paragraph for you to play translate :)

 

吾至爱汝，即此爱汝一念，使吾勇就死也。吾自遇汝以来，常愿天下有情人都成眷属；然遍地腥云，满街狼犬，称心快意，几家能彀？司马春衫，吾不能学太上之忘情也。语云：仁者

[Crispicrispi]

To me at least, Hokkien and Cantonese are the dialects that link me to my ancestors as I used to communicate with my grandparents with them, and that is why I identify with them rather than Mandarin. Mandarin to me is nothing more than another business language, like English. Even though I can, I don't see why I have to read the newspapers in Chinese (to say nothing of the quality of the Chinese news here these days). Then again, I shouldn't talk about this. I hardly bother with the local newspapers, English or otherwise.

 

OT a bit: Like all languages, Chinese and definitely English too has its beauty and complexities and I find it odd whenever someone beats his chest and proclaims the superiority of one language over another. English however has suffered a lot of degradation in certain aspects - people like to use the word "emo" nowadays, but think of how many other words could have more accurately and emphatically expressed their emotional state.

I thought I have summerised everything in my earlier reply before this.

 

1) I do not compare, and I do not degrade any language, I mean official language. Can't I praise Chinese as I am a Chinese?

2) Chinese newspaper or literature are not limited to Sinmin or wanbao, I-mag or U-mag.

3) You are not the only one that reads web news, business times, etc.

Edited October 13, 2011 by Crispicrispi

[Kiadaw]

it still beats western colonisation or japanese imperialism

 

If the British didn't come to some tropical Island near the equator some 2 centuries ago, you will still be relax in your air con office or room typing this?

 

No one disputed that when the British come here or other area of the earth to set up colonies, it isn't for their own good, or they are the best masters or governors, but they did help (directly or indirectly) a lot of the countries like those from Africa to build up their countries. Not to mention our little Island.

 

Of course, some of their practice & trades are not very honorable, like Slave trade & opium. But they are not all bad, if not there will not be any Commonwealth games at all, would it?

 

Its cannot to compare it to Japanese imperialism, the darkness years in modern history of the far east.