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37 1st Gear

About Thwwx

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    1st Gear
  1. Do you have more information on this Elf Molygraphite? And it actually has solids that settle out of the oil when left to stand? If so, this is definately non conventionl. Conventional oils in the 40 weight range will not cause clutch slip, EC included, this has been proven in practice many many times.
  2. I appreciate a good discussion. My absence is due to other commitments, be assured I will give you some numbers to chew on if that's what you want. How about a 4.0 HTHS@150degC for a 12.5cst@100 oil? What does a oil that rates right up there with Redline car oils in HTHS tell u? Do we need to go through the whole list of performance figures, really? It is not cheap to build such oils and it is one great indicator of the intended function of the product. PC engine oil are mostly mid 3's at 14+ cst. "I never said that EP additives interfere with hydrodynamic lubrication (they just aren't good at it). But obviously in 1L of 2 near identical oil except one has more EP additives something else has to be displaced so it remains as 1L." Please kindly explain how will an additve interfere (as in 'have an effect on') with hydrodynamic lubrication? You do realise that all additives are measured in the order of PPM (part per MILLION), to say that volumetric variance from a stronger additive concentration is like saying a few hundred milligrams making an impact on 1 kg of base. Are you confident that this difference is even measurable? "A high ash content will tend to form more sludge and deposits in the engine. Low ash content also seems to promote long valve life." With regards to ZDDP/ZDP it was also stated that "More doesn't give you better protection, it gives you longer protection if the rate of metal to metal contact is abnormally high. High zinc content can lead to deposit formation and plug fouling." There is also alot of "will tend to" and "can lead to". A low viscosity oil "can lead to" accelerated wear, a 15WXX oil "can lead to" more startup wear. Drinking too much water "can lead to" death, get the drift? Does it really apply in our context and how significant? No well documented reports of such recurring 'problems' in practice strongly suggests it is a non issue. Can you explain why in the past 20++ yrs, cars have been running on a steady diet of what is considered 'high ash' oils today? Do you see that this 'high ash' thing only came about with the advent of catalysers? Will you stop using SH/SL oil just because SM now define those as 'high ash', even when your manual says it is OK? And there are people who put stuff like Delvac 1 into their cars, with great results. High ash stuff. I repeat for the last time: If you're not burning copious amount of oil, this ash thing isn't an issue. If you are burning enough oil to make a few thousand PPM of metallic ash an issue, your plug probably would have been fouled from oil coating the plug. "You know that stuff you keep saying about bikes working harder? Its not entirely true either. I'm not even going to try and guess which works harder as their hard work is different and i'm not one to compare apples to oranges. One is high revving the other has high loads. Why do you think that most cars have lower compression ratios? Taking pump fuel into consideration, if a car had m/cycle like comp ratios there would be a good recipe for early detonation thanks to these loads. Alternatively they could retard timing and this will raises the exhaust gas temperature. This raises the thermal stress on the pistons, spark plugs, valves, and exhaust system. The last bit i need to mention is that a 1L engine putting out 0.2bhp per cc will not be able to put out the same power to displacement ratio if the engine is enlarged to 2L because power gains through displacement is not linear. The larger the displacement the lower the power to displacement ratio all other things being equal. " Load is HP, it doesn't matter what rpm it is generated at. Gearing does the rest, bikes do not operate at 2k rpm like cars. I have explained that cars have lower comp ratios, and longer strokes because it is IMPRACTICAL to have an over squared bore/stroke. Such designs are for MAX HP and will drink petrol like water and you will find these in pure race engines, like F1. Some cars do come closer to MC bore/stroke configurations. Do you dare say Ferraris engines are less stressed than your Toyota? Power gains thru displacement is not linear if you're talking about upping CC by changing bore/stroke. With the same bore/stroke but multiplying cylinders, it is virtually linear.
  3. Older gen cars have no issue with 1% or more ash, why are newer cars lower tech? Industrial diesels have no issues with ash. The main reason for low ash has been to protect the catalysers. Without a cat, an engine suddenly can use all kind of oils, not just low ash. As mentioned before, ash is hardly an issue unless the engine is buring copious amount of oil. Do you have actual examples of high ash causing aforementioned damage in an otherwise healthy engine? Incidentally, newer bikes equipped with cats also states low ash in manual, but no such valve chipping reported.
  4. So now it is about cleaning power? Do we really have to go through every single component aspect? Why is it that you seem to think that bikes deserve a lesser oil and should be questioned thoroughly in every function? Has it got to do with the status of bikes? There are 2 smokers that ah pek rides with 20yr OTR and there are modern high performance EFI bikes that are more 'race ready' out the box than the special edition WRX that Ah Seng is dying to test drive. If u strip away all your biases, see that both car and bikes are basically 4 strokers, but one is tuned to churned out 0.2 bhp per CC at comp ratio unheard of in cars, capable of revving 14~15k rpm for extended periods, you will immediately see which oil needs to withstand the beating.
  5. So how does 'EHD chemicals' interfere with hydrodynamic lubrication? The latter is in perfect state of lubrication when there is no physical contact between surfaces at all! It's effectiveness is factored directly to film strength and HTHS. This is a wild assumption of 'master of none'. If the car engine designers want it, they will spec an oil loaded with AW because it makes their design so much easier. Repeatedly mentioned that it is all about emissions, google it. Mo does not substitute ZDDP, it complements. There are good reasons that Zn/Ph AW systems remains firmly in today's every single oil formulation. Moly disulphide is a solid precipitate and is not used in any modern engine oil! MoDTC is common, and you're wrong, it doesn't slip the clutch, AND, Mo is actually formulated in some bike specific oils, it is a matter of whether they want to. This is from a well known independant test by Sportrider mag, showing clearly Mo content even in a bike spec oil. The American public has been drilled that Moly is bad in bikes and auto oil is bad in bikes. Before Mobil launched their M/C series, they recommended their 'red cap' 15W50 for bikes. Then when their MX4T and V Twin 20W50 was launched, they did a 180deg turn. To this date, diehards still put M1 15W50 into their bikes, but the AW situation is evolving, this time weakening cars oils in AW protection. The 'experts' like Engine Oil bible is actually a very shallow summary of 'internet knowledge' that won't stack up to slightly more serious research into the topic. Why don't you quote your sources of such 'gurus'?
  6. Mobil 1 also tells you that it is synthetic, which the following has raise some serious doubts about: http://theoildrop.server101.com/forums/sho...=0&fpart=1&vc=1 Mobil 1 tells u alot of things so that they can sell you at premium price. In the states, bikes are lifestyle toys, bike oils sells for 2X as much as car oil easily. The bike guys have been dumping the car stuff into their bikes. Many work great even with the EC rated oils, those that slip either have a clutch that needs replacement anyway or need new/stiffer clutch springs. The other main performance difference other than AW levels is that cars oils, with their typical weak shear resistance, get sheared out of grade in very little time. Incidently, bike manuals have never stressed on using bike specific oil until in recent years. The emphasis was not so much on clutch slip, but on the protection level. BMW even issued a TSB that advised against later than API SL formulations for use in their bikes.
  7. There are not the same as those in gear oils, there are a whole range of such additives. Notice that gear oil have a distinctive smell but 4T does not have. And why will a 4 stroke motorcycle oil be formulated in such a way that will corrode the engine? This is radical, to the extent of ridiculous, extrapolation just because they have better antiwear levels. These are the same stuff in car oils, just more because they don't have to save the catalysers. It is true that the regular car oil antiwear levels are 'sufficient' for cars as long as they're specced to use that particular API/ACEA/fancy factory conti spec. But then again, what's the point of choosing a particular brand/type of oil? Any that meets the spec is 'sufficient'. So why do you fuss about car oil with FM is that marginally 'better'. FM or no FM, it is more than 'sufficient'. Do you put the cheapest oil that meet your car specs in your car or do you actually have an interest which product is better despite the same specs? Other than AW/EP, there is higher shear resistance offered. These are the same reasons people who want performance shell out big bucks for auto race oils. 1st you generalise about FM, which was refuted. Now it is generalisation about corrosion linked to wear protection. What next? This is rather pointless discussion if you already made up your mind based on your generalised ideas of certain properties.
  8. That's where you're wrong, stock production normally aspirated bike engines are producing up to 0.2 bhp per CC, with 4 cylinders at a comp ratio of 12.8:1 If you scale this up to produce an 8 cylinder 2000cc car, it will pump out 400 bhp, promptly smoking anything on the road in the same capacity class. The engines are more highly stressed than any passenger car. The reason normal cars are not made like this is because it will be highly impractical. They will idle very high, have crap efficiency and generally be closer to F1 than anything on the road. Many bikers put top of the line engine oil into their bikes as a matter of fact, and you'll see the top racing oils in far more % of bikeshops than there will be in car shops.
  9. Inferior properties in terms of protection? Definately not. Frankly, if you're debating on fuel efficieny, there is not a snowball's chance in hell that a high HTHS 40wt will win over a 20wt. Then again, if you're looking at protection in extreme conditions, the converse is also true. I am pointing out that M/C oils are made to protect any engine better especially in extreme use, which is the truth without exceptions. They're often higher spec than your equal weight and 'quality' (as in syn versus syn) PCMO in terms of protection and durability. Performance oils (M/C oils as well as top end car oils) are meant to protect and last, their durability and higher film strength (HTHS) compromises their effectiveness in terms of energy conservation, FM or no FM. Still, the difference is minute, EC specs savings in the range of 1% or 2%, you won't see much savings unless you do long haul. There is no argument that: 1. M/C oils won't corrode anything in the engine, regardless it car or bike 2. True M/C oils definately protect better, that is what engine oil core function is all about
  10. Friction modifiers, that's another mythical difference between car and bike oils. The EC rated oils are all 30wt and below while JASO MA min friction spec oils are 40wt and up. The EC rating is primarily determined by the viscosity, it common knowledge that the thinner oils, not some 'frictionally enhanced' 40wt that gives rise to better fuel efficiency. Ask why Toyota is going 20wt. There are race oils made for bikes that are 0W30 and even 0W10 but they aren't JASO MA compliant because they're too slippery at that viscosity and needs modified clutch to work. Such differences has got nothing to do with the quality of the oil, but rather the intended application, just like your 50wt turbo oil won't be giving u impressive milage (will you call your Motul 300V 15W50 'lousier'?). http://www.maximausa.com/products/4stroke/maxum4ultra0.asp Really what corrosion are we talking about here? Bike oils are regular function engine oil made to protect a 4 stroke engine + fortified to deal with aggressive cam, high comp, high rpm which puts alot of stress on camlobes and EP gearbox duty as well. They're made tougher (high shear resistance) with better EP characteristics. You make it sound like gearoil. Bike 4T aren't GL-5 rated gearoils and don't have the compatibility issues like GL-4 versus GL-5. Car oils were once formulated like bike oils (minus the shear resistance part) until the API started to get influenced by emission requirements post API SG.
  11. Well, now as a person who is "more affay with specific qualities of 4 stroke motorcycle oil as well as gearbox requirements", I am saying that the motorcycle 4T are suitable for cars. The only concern being the ash requirements of modern cars for the benefit of guaranteeing the catalyser's function for a period of time. However, unless your car is bellowing smoke from burnt oil like a 2 stroker, you won't have an issue. Almost all 'performance oils' (we're talking about Redline, Motul) flout the API SM limits of Zn/Ph, which makes them as bad as the motocycle oils when it comes to 'compatibility' for modern cars.
  12. Why will the EP additives in 4T do any harm to gearbox components when it is designed to be used to lubricate a motorcycle's shared sump gearbox?
  13. What Mobil 1 EP really is: http://theoildrop.server101.com/forums/sho...=0&fpart=1&vc=1 Btw, 25,000 OCI on BMWs, haha. Try opening up the oil filler cap on a BMW late into their interval and you'll see the brown stain around the filler, tell tale sign of oil in bad shape. Oil analysis example below. http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthrea...highlight=15000
  14. [shakehead]Many people tried to tell you. Motul is branding. Yes, they do make great top end products (300V), but their HTEC or 7100 is actually lesser than other brand products you can buy at the same price. Recognise quality for what it is, not what price it is sold at.
  15. Thwwx

    Good coolant...?

    That's not true, in fact more complicated than engine oil. Cooling performance also differ alot between the common antifreeze glycol type and the high performance water based type.