Why IASCA tuning cannot listen audiophile music?

[Hyun]

i read with interest this thread:

http://sgsoundsystem.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6143&page=4

 

it contains some of my favourite elements of interactive internet forum activity, and some of the performances are truly oscar material. however, today's question is not really about theatrics. it's another one of those things that i dun understand in ICE. so i got to ask u all lah....

 

Why IASCA tuning cannot listen audiophile music?

 

this is i think the 2nd time i heard this, but both times i have no opportunity to ask why. 1st time was cos i think i forgot who said it, and 2nd time, the thread has been locked before i even discovered such eroticism existed in ICE forums. but anyway ...

 

i hope brother wilco is in this forum too. i dun dare to pose this question in sgsoundsystem cos i scared in future i have to pull down my pants when i play ICE. it intrigues me that, as a certified IASCA judge, brother wilco commented that IASCA's tuning is unsuitable for good music. what is wrong with this IASCA tuning?

 

is IASCA tuning different from EMMA / AMMA / whateverMAMA tuning? i donno, i'm not sure what was taught in the judging course. if it's the same, then EMMA tuning also no good for nice music?

 

umm.. so what is good for nice music? home hifi tuning? i think most of us would agree this part is true, unless there are still some jedis who still believe $10k speakers in cars can smell the smoke of a $3k home system.

 

so assuming this is true, that home hifi tuning plays good music. so what is implied here is that IASCA tuning is NOT the same as home hifi tuning, and hence, it cannot play good music. was that what was covered in the judging course? or is it the interpretation of brother wilco?

 

i'm sorry i'm not criticising brother wilco, i just don't understand, that's why i'm asking. i don't expect wilco to be in this forum, i'm not sure. so whoever knows what is IASCA tuning (mr jeff, the IASCA man?), can please teach me? i also wanna try try fight IASCA competition one day leh ... when i can finally find a buyer for my crap speakers.

[Kermit]

&otI remember when I first started out in this ICE journey, I was rather fascinated by the tracks in the IASCA CD. My then installer introduced it to me, while using it to tune my setup. Then, I didn't know what EMMA/AMMA/MAMA was...So, I had taken reference somewhat to the IASCA CD. Vividly, the 7-beat track was played in my car for an uncountable number of times...

 

Then I began to be exposed to various ;audiophile" recordings...that's when after a while, the IASCA CD suddenly lost its charm....I'm not sure, perhaps it became a bore to listen to, or to use it for reference...Then it came EMMA...something very different. Something much closer to the type of audiophile recordings that I had been exposed to. The emphasis on tonality became more important, the tracks on stage image became less "technical", and more realistic. More so, the marriage of the two (tonality and imaging), was now apparent.

 

Not that I find IASCA wrong. Perhaps it's less exciting and satisfying now that I've moved on....

 

Good music is really a subjective matter. To me, I "wet my pants" when the music move me, literally. Music appeals to the soul primarily, sometimes spiritual, other times physical, even a combination of these. If we were to really dissect good music, we can possibly find a few things that appeal to people in different manners. I believe no two persons can appreciate the same piece of music to the same degree. Most audiophiles would say, RECORDING, or how much closer it is to the actual thing in terms of sound produced. They sometimes dun care if the track is just but some drums beating in some weird rhythmic progression. Others may be captured by the way the music is represented, i.e. the arrangement, the instruments used, and what they play together to present the music. Yet there are others who are suckers for a particular style of music, from hardcore jazz to blues, to R&B what have you. For the privileged few, they may appreciate the musicianship contained within the piece, i.e. how the guitar is plucked, the forever running of the fingers playing the piano. So, to say what is good music is difficult to pin down.

 

I dun know, sometimes my mood plays a part in what music I like in that moment of time too. What I would like to say is this, I think we should not try to find something that is "right". We should always find something that we "like". At home and in the car, no basis for comparison. To me, they are different environment. Why doesn't anyone try to replicate what you hear in the car to the home environment? Hack, I choose to let it go. Been to esplanade a few times too. Nice. sounds natural, got visuals, etc. Been to Jazz at Southbridge, been to the Actors etc...All very enjoyable. Ask ourselves, what do we exactly enjoy about these places? Then what do we exactly enjoy in the car? What do we exactly enjoy at home? All different deh...

 

Haha, having said all these nonsense, there are some fundamentals in sound that we adhere to. Beyond that, it's a matter of preference and what moves you. Heavy bass? I like, cos that's what moves me...boomy bass? Got meh?

Edited September 10, 2007 by Kermit

[Sarong1]

Good summation of thoughts. Just enjoy music, competitions are but about judgments from homo sapiens call judges; they have eyes to see, ears to hear, brain to think...which you and me are also blessed with since birth. Let you own being judge for yourself.

[Hyun]

as bro Sarong previously pointed out, the IASCA disc contains tracks that are taken from good recordings, e.g. Erich Kunzel etc. so when I listen to IASCA nowadays, i still find it enjoyable.

 

as for its technical assessments like the 7 drum beat thing, i think it's just one of the many ways, albeit a bit limited in scope, of testing the spread of soundstage. unfortunately the way the IASCA rulebook draws some of the soundstage leads me to suspect that their definition of soundstage might be a bit limited.

 

compare that with EMMA's rulings - whereby, as again, brother Sarong rightly pointed out, the left stage should be where the sound appears on the left side. the right stage should be where the sound appears on the right side. the centrestage should be roughly in between these 2 positions. all this should not take into account where the speakers are, where your dashboard is, where your air fresher sits and where you use the little computer chip to pay money to the government every morning.

 

IASCA didn't exactly say all this. i haven't done the judging course, so i'd like to ask any IASCA judge here whether IASCA is indeed different from EMMA in terms of soundstage definition.

[Boring]

EI guess what wilco meant is... For competition, you tune to what you/installer think the judges would like to hear. Although judges should be neutral, it can't be helped if they have their own listening preferences (all human beings got preferences). Their listening preferences might not be something you like.

[Sarong1]

Hyun, you have quoted and pointed out correctly. Let's put it this way. we know that IASCA and AMMA are but games, you play the rules of the game. In both cases, IASCA and AMMA have provided competitors with judging CDs so that participants can pit their skills in interpreting and presenting the contents in the CD accurately before arriving at the judging pit. This is to make competitions fair and square.

 

One analogy, we have sat for the GCE exams, all will receive the same set of questions. How candidates arrive at the solutions at the end of the day and how much they will score depend largely on the markers in Cambridge and according to Cambridge standard, regardless of the efforts and time you have spent. In my opinion, EMMA did one step better, by creating their own live recordings, so naturally, they know what they are looking out for. So, if you set the questions, wouldn't you know what you should look out for? So, different examiners' requirements are different. Also, using the exam analogy, how often will you apply the same technique to tackle the real life problems the way you have done so in exam?

 

Now, coming back to why IASCA tuning or settings can't be used for normal listening, I need to verify if you are also referring to EMMA. Although I have not gotten the chance to participate, but by studying into the requirements of both competitions, I must say that I look upon EMMA more so than any other competitions.

Edited September 10, 2007 by Sarong1

[Hyun]

let's take some examples from IASCA:

 

1) those orchestral tracks. if u tune them to be nice, orchestral pieces should naturally sound pretty nice.

 

2) then there are some tracks with drums and electric bass etc, with vocal. same thing - if it sounds nice, other similar tracks also should sound nice mah?

 

3) then there are the jazzy pieces, like the pink panther theme etc. again, same thing mah?

 

and wilco didn't say tuning to judges makes it unlistenable. he said "IASCA tuning" won't be nice. so something about IASCA, whether it's the judging criteria that's taught to all IASCA judges etc. something is wrong? but then, if it's wrong, how come these tracks mentioned above sound nice?

 

so i dun understand lor ...

[Bobcatsysop]

Hi Hyun,

 

You want to have this topic: " Why IASCA tuning cannot listen audiophile music?" for discussion this Wed nasi padang ice meetup?.. anyone can confirm if it's back at the old place same time?

[Wankie]

wah macam tabling a topic for debate/discussion need to get moderator boh?

[Bobcatsysop]

Hi Wankie,

This is just creating a topic for discussion only mah... need meh? If this need, then all meetups also need police permit liao right?

[Wankie]

aiyo uncle bob, kidding lah as usual, don't take my comments too seriously

[Bobcatsysop]

[Tazster_t]

Let me have a go at this..

 

You're right. If you tune it to listening pleasure, to move you like an earlier reply, there's no doubt it will sound good. Of course this again is dependable on tuner coz different tuners have different interpretation or vision of how a genre ought to be.

 

Now coming to the IASCA competition part. In the spirit of winning, you definitely want ur system to stand out from the rest. We take the pink panther as an example.. we want a wide stage.. we want good imaging..we want good visualization of the instrument, blah blah blah. Assuming everyone can at least get decent results.. then in order to standout.. you may need to push it to a 'ridiculous' level.

 

If we take good music as wat we have in real life, an orchestra playing in the centre of the stage, members sitting together, music blending in and out...

 

To win IASCA, since you its separation and imaging and you want to get MAXIMUM points.. your orchestra now have to sit further apart coz u maybe want the triangle to be as far right as possible.. ur double bass to be as far left as possible... you want your trumpet to be isolated in the centre and not blurred by the violins blah blah blah..

 

Does it sound ok...? ya... issit a true reflection of real life? maybe not.. some ppl may enjoy it.. some ppl will not. Again.. and it has been mentioned before... depends on the listener.. depends on the judge.

 

Above may not be the best way to describe why...but I think its someway along the lines..

[Sarong1]

Hyun, you have got some good leading points here. Now, if orchestra, jazz, pop and vocals sounded nice in the car, what have you then achieved? You could have probably come to a state where the frequency response is generally linear. When the frequency response is linear, that will also mean that you have conquered the challenges posed by the car acoustics, which either absorb, reflect or cancelled off frequencies the materials in the car could affect. And that is the reason why we have heard so much of RTA tunings and sorts, what do they want to achieve at the end of the day? A linear or as flat as possible a frequency response in the car. Human ears are subjected to fatigue but RTA is not, so generally, tuners would prefer to use RTA as the basis before listening it with their own ears to clear up some stray frequencies, its being more productive and efficient. also, there is a frequency which our human ears are particularly sensitive to and which the RTA cannot correct accurately, is residing at 400hz.

 

Now, when Wilco said that "IASCA tuning won't be nice, he was probably expressing from his own point-of-view, which cannot be taken as "IASCA tuning cannot listen to audiophile music" in general, this is misleading.

[Hyun]

Taz, Sarong, points noted and agreed.

 

By the way, i only knew we were more sensitive to around 1 to 1.25khz region, but which particular 400hz region exhibits non-linear response for the ears? due to speech recognition ya?

 

maybe my phrasing of subject topic isn't accurate but the gist of discussion is there. the funny thing is, i've heard this comment from at least 2 people, and maybe more people feel that way. i suspect they have a misconception about IASCA tuning - that to achieve high scores in that, you need to do certain things which u don't normally do. also, although i dun take part in competitions, sometimes i wonder if IASCA trains their judges consistently highly. for some reason, reading through the EMMA rulebook, the way the rules are phrased, it gives you more confidence that the EMMA people know what they're talking about.

 

the interesting about RTA is, although i haven't really played around with them much, i suspect that even good RTA mics are somewhat directional, which means that we really need to know how to angle our mikes, otherwise readings can deviate quite substantially.

[Sarong1]

In fact, we are sensitive to all ranges but we get irritated by certain ranges. The 400Hz I said earlier is not a region, but is the frequency itself. You will really need lots of hands on to explore and learn.

[Headshok]

no need tok so much

 

SPL!

 

put meter in, my one louder than ur one, simple liao..

 

hahahahaha

[Hyun]

> The 400Hz I said earlier is not a region, but is the frequency itself. You will really need lots of hands on to explore and learn.

 

no understand... 400hz is near middle A hor....