Piggyback qns

[Smhomie]

We are all here to share like my earlier statement on fellow readership

 

The sds article talk about the common fallacy in using EGTs as a tuning parameter in an FI car. The author/article seems to impress the reader that EGTs are not as important as your AFR when tuning. For what its worth, the highlighted statement is not the gospel truth, which if you should sift through SAE papers, the GM engineers or Honeywell engineers would state otherwise. sds is not wrong but I feel they are not presenting the whole picture and maybe because their focus was on AFR tuning and not exploring EGTs

 

Textbook ideal ignition timing would be 20 degrees. However, this is again a textbook gauge as engine design differs from manufacturer to manufacturer and the modern lean burn engines used today would have again shifted the paradigm.

 

Pardon me but scanning my module papers to put up in the net ain't my thing, sorry

[Smhomie]

Yes, only 20% of the fuel is expended into energy, the rest is wastage. Yes, the Joules of energy released from the combustion cycle can be calculated but what a waste of time

 

The reduction and oxidation catalyst on modern cars does their job by breaking down the elements to lessen emission pollution.

 

Yes, I'm running on water injection with a progressive controller Its greatest advantage is that of allowing you to run more advanced timing w/o fear of detonation. The system alone doesn't add power but gives you the ability to advance ign. timing hence producing more power.

[Auto_ghost]

Water injection is meant to be coolant to replace excessive rich fueling for cooling purpose, so the first approach is to tuning towards best power AFR with the aid of water, and then follow up by timing adjustment to take advantage of the detonation suppression of WI. Well, that

Edited March 27, 2008 by Auto_ghost

[Auto_ghost]

Since the sds artical promote ARF tuning over EGT tuning, let

Edited March 27, 2008 by Auto_ghost

[Smhomie]

Yes, if you are concerned with the optimization of fuel tuning for your engine, you are correct

 

Yes, physical volume limits heat management and hence safe power, you are correct.

 

Yes, more metal suface area means more cooling efficiency one of the 1st few things we learn in class. Its true Look at the NA V8 versus NA I4 ebgine block in the bay of most cars!

 

Yes, for increased performance upto 50%, wideband is sufficient. If higher, EGT would be helpful in addition to wideband, you are correct.

 

At increased stroke velocity + higher cylinder temps, the traditional pentroof piston, its ringlands and stock connecting rods will give way if subjected to high temps for prolong periods, hence the need to change out to beefier A or H rods and lighter forged pistons (typically lower CR to cram greater density volume) oh yes, with tuning of course!

 

Yes, you are right Based on our ramblings thus far, readers can now be tuners already

 

Good exchanging views with you

[Yc86]

Absolute rubbish that unit. In fact its worse than Greddy Blue. Alot of bugs + unstable. My cousin and his friends bought it in US (he's staying there) and the ecu relearnt after 150miles of run time in the car All the hard work tuning on the dyno with tuner went down the drain.

 

You can read about this in various US car forums. I myself have read the install/operation manual and I know why it fails big time.....

 

The ULTIMATE does not connect or tap to the Primary O2 sensor! How to tune close loop then? There isn't any control authority by the piggyback in the 1st place. The unit can only control fueling and ignition timing in open loop. What for? solve 1 problem but create another.

 

No wonder the ecu relearns after awhile! What a lot of crock this unit.

 

Dun mind me asking, but is the Ultimate that bad..?

 

For a piggyback, are almost all piggybacks run on an open loop?

what kind of problems will or can it create?

 

Didn't give much thought about it b4 till I saw ur post..

currently on it now, but I'm driving quite an old car so perhaps the ecu is first gen.

Will this re-learning effect only occur on newer cars?

 

Was told the Ultimate does have an option for a wideband sensor to work in closed loop, but not advisable to leave it on permanently as if the sensor fails there could be problems..

[Smhomie]

Yes it is quite bad or at least worse than the 1st e-manage released in the past according to general consensus (plus feedback from my cousin). Sorry this should not be my personal opinion as I have not used it nor do I intend to use it anythime soon

 

All piggybacks are able to tune open loop since its an internal look up table at factory ecu mappings. They are not dynamic but rather static values. Value only changes constantly in close loop/ positive feedback mode based on 02 heated sensors and compares it with internal fuel trims + various engine sensor readings. It will try to maintain 14.4-15.1 AFR (general tolerance)

 

Old or new car does not matter. Most of the cars currently are post OBD2 protocol and as early as 2004 saw CAN (controller area network) implemented in cars, especially in certain JDM lines. In MY 2008, it will be mandatory to be CAN compliant for ALL manufacturers.

 

Yes, re-learning or CEL will be inevitable on newer cars irregardless. This is because of factory control authority and buffer threshold issues + o2 sensor feedback in close loop.

 

When you installed the Ultimate, you should have received the install and operation manuals (2 booklets) + install CD. Where are they? Were they not given to you?

 

The AFR option you speak of is found on p35 of your Ops manual. It basically takes the readings from the wideband and adjusts the acceleration injector adjustment map to match the input value you have inserted in the cell.

 

No, it does not tune close loop. The !caution! box below that page advises that if you attempt to use the target map when close loop is in operation, you WILL fark up your ENTIRE A/F target map no shi.t

 

B.ullshit to the person who told you about having problems with a permanent wideband fitted on the exhaust housing The most commonly wideband used by product companies today is the Bosch LSU unit since it is cheaper. The longer lasting and better sensitivity wideband probe would be NTK/NGK but costs 2x more, they are commonly used in the Horiba brand of lab equipment. I hear Honda uses NTK for their cars so its a lifetime item. Bosch wideband is fine (I'm using one ). Wideband sensors typically lasts 2 years based on daily continuous usage and have a temp ceiling of approx. 800c which is something we will never see in the exhaust (downstream).

 

What problems would you have if it fails? Assuming you did use the A/F target on the Ultimate and the wideband grenaded, at most the injector adjustment map will stop functioning. The failsafe measures would be (1) the unit LED would flash orange or red telling you a malfunction (2) your wideband monitor would be telling you leanish in the open loop region (3) you will start to hear engine knock

 

When any of the 3 symptoms emerge, don't you think you'll be on alert and quickly try to diagnose the problem? So blowing up your sh1t is a toss in the woods if a little care and observation is practiced...

 

What rubbish is your installer telling you and others? He makes me sick

 

I'm going for a smoke now, cannot take it

[Auto_ghost]

I have absolutely no business connection with Greddy or the emanage product at all, but just want to give it some justice.

 

All piggyback should primarily be used to tune open loop. Close loop application must be done very carefully. The tuner must know what he

Edited March 29, 2008 by Auto_ghost

[Auto_ghost]

The wideband thingy you talked about is the

[Smhomie]

Well, my cousin was using Titan Motorsports which is a very well known tuner outfit for his daily driver, the Greddy tech support team was all the way with the shop owner. They could not resolve the issues he faced In the end, he decided to heed the tuner's advice to go standalone. He's still periodically tuning the car now Its the barometric issues.

 

Pg 43 was left out in my comments earlier as this was documented and stated by various users in various car clubs in North America for sports compacts. You may read some of these comments in "emanageforum" or "mohdparts" since they are the few very popular reference boards on this piggyback platform.

 

The AO setting requires you to make subtle changes to the Throttle Position Sensor in order to manipulate the feedback range or "force" the system to go open loop. To me its only good if I can use it

 

Unfortunately, as stated by Greddy in their bulletin board, it only works in some vehicles, not all. Maybe the cars you tune happen to be able to accept the signal changes So unless Greddy confirms ALL cars are able to employ this tweak, I consider it a bells & whistles feature

 

Same goes to the speed delimiter function, doesn't work on all cars as well.

 

Part of the values obtained to provide fuel is from MAF, you are correct but the engine speed, coolant temps,camshaft position, crankshaft position, throttle position, vehicle speed etc are also used to determine look up value + correction from feedback sensors. Intercepting injector signals and modifying them is not the ideal manner..... but of course since Greddy offers this solution for now in the market, who is to say it's not ideal unless another better solution is yet to be released...

 

MAF measures the mass and flowrate of the intake air + IAT. Injectors have two programs for SFI, Group and Independent injection which is synchronous and non-synchronous.

 

The Ultimate piggyback may pack alot of features with some dealers' sites claiming it "to be the closet thing to a standalone" but I feel its more for marketing and keeping customer base intact. A product in today's context must be versatile and updated to stay competitive or risk losing market share. If you compare the Blue with the Ultimate, they merely extended existing functions + added new features to stay relevant.

 

According to my cousin, Greddy USA reps were not very happy with the rather fast release of the Ultimate unit even before ironing out the program bugs. Even the jap tech from HQ had a very difficult time during their secondment to States

 

If a hand full of brainless tuners or enthusiasts complain about the product just because they are inexperienced or do not understand tuning fundamentals or do not know how to splice wires and follow instructions, yes then they may be wrong. But well known EFI tuners, autocross teams, learned owners, tuner shop owners calling the tech dept everyday to complain or ask "why like that?" questions or post their personal negative opinions on the unit, can't be all of these people are wrong or stupid, right? I kinda derive my general perception of the unit from such feedbacks + reading the Ops manual sent by my cousin.

 

Looks a little like software biz I think ie. quickly release a product to public and rely on complaints to see what the bugs are then rectify, then keep releasing software downloads ver1 ver2 ver3 etc... What an insult to consumers at their expense

 

The Ultimate may have done wonderous things for your tuning needs, but with due respect to your preference, I personally will not use it nor do I care to try it out for myself.

 

Call me biase or partial with a narrowmind set viewing the Ultimate with loof, I just want a reliable and stable solution hopefully offered by a company of automotive elec tech engineers

[Yc86]

ah.. Understood

 

Thanks.

[Yc86]

I see

 

My EMU was 2nd hand..

Didn't think of the manual and CDs at that time, but i believe both can be downloaded off Greddy's site. anw, i don't think i'm competent enough to tune by myself

 

I've another question though, given a choice of Fuel press/ EGT or wideband sensor and gauge, which would be best as an indicator of the status of the engine during hard/track driving? or which can provide a warning to quit b4 the engine blows?

[Auto_ghost]

Definitely not in any position to comment about those oversea workshop reputation. We have few very reputable workshops locally and across the causeway too. If you have chance to pretend as customer and chat with them, it can often be really comical. One technique they use when they notice their technical knowledge is challenged; they turn violent and talk louder and louder

 

On page 43, it says we can use AO to drive the throttle signal to fool the ecu going into close loop for those car

[Smhomie]

Yes, most standalones have an auto-tune function to speed up an initial map. In fact, it is a standard install procedure to allow the car to idle at least 1/2 half for the initial start in order for the standalone to mimic the functions of the suject car.

 

All serious enthusiasts and tuners always recommend installing a wideband gauge for 24/7 real time monitoring.

 

I can understand the rationale of tuning safe for consumers, but I suppose consumers who opt for performance usually ask to be tuned to the ragged edge?

[Tonyleonghk]

so, guys, have you heard abt this product??

 

http://www.vrlperformance.com/Tuning/index.htm

 

Any comment??

[Perrier]

Hi guys (SM et AG),

 

I need something to retard my ignition timing and alter my AFR so it uses less fuel. Unichip and EM are my preferred choice with such capabilities due to its availability.

 

I am sure you guys have heard of Brown's gas (HHO) and its use in the ICE. To effectively use it to reduce mileage, I need to perform the above two things or do a O2 sensor mod.

 

Any idea on how I should communicate with the tuner to go about the tuning? I am more into efficient gas production and not the tuning part so I would definitely need someone with good knowledge in order not to screw my engine up.

 

Thanks

[DarkLord]

He's doing Full Data Lock aka ECU reflash.

[Powerup]

Bro, its not easy to do tuning for better fc, i have been trying it for many months already. I will likely to give-up soon... started tuning when Shell98 was below $2/-!!! now its $2.19haiz...

 

I am not discouraging u but do make sure you communicate with yr tuner well, make realistic target for improvement, have records to track yr fc.

 

It can be very frustrating for u and yr tuner as the amount of time u will likely going to spend on retuning/ fine-tuning.

 

Do share your experience.

 

Sometime, stock setup will give a better fc settings, but I really depends on yr driving style

Edited June 27, 2008 by Powerup