Anyone Using PHD? Or Other Suggestions for Amp + Components?

[Hyun]

seriously, who came up with this idea that the MAX rating of the speaker must be similar or lesser than the MAX rating of the amp? come on, own up, who????

[Vblaster_w211]

Not max, RMS. And I could hear a distinct difference when the FB Pro Kit is driven by different amps at AE. This is especially apparent for mid bass, which produces much more distinct punch when properly matched.

[Hyun]

max, rms, anything, whatever. to reply to your comment:

 

> And I could hear a distinct difference when the FB Pro Kit is driven by different amps at AE.

 

you can hear a distinct difference when the XX YYY ZZZ is driven by different !@#$% at ABCDE because there IS a difference. different amps reproduce the frequency spectrum differently. they are NOT reproducing the audio signal EXACTLY as how it was input. assume u input a flat, VERY flat signal. it comes out, assuming without any fancy distortion, theoretically as a FLAT output as well.

 

in reality, it doesn't. it's more like this: it comes out with undulations, a bit up here, down there. the variations can be as drastic as, let's say, +2 or +3 dB at some frequencies, and -2 -3 at some others. it's like it's given you music with the amp's EQ imprinted on it.

 

so i'm not saying different amps give same sound.

 

so begin with a 50W amp playing at 20W output. i'm saying, if u take the SAME amp, with the SAME internal circuitry and behaviour, and plug in a different power rail, like say replacing the transformer or something, make it from an RMS/MAX/Anything/Whatever from 50W to 200W, and then play back AGAIN at 20W output, nothing else has changed, i'm thinking it'll sound the SAME. that's cos it's the same amp, just having a different POTENTIAL level of output, which (at 20W) is still not being utilised.

 

BUT if u go to an installer, and try DIFFERENT models of amp, the internals are different. sure, the "rating" is different but what makes it sound different is likely to be NOT the rating, but rather the internals. again, the extra rating is not being utilised at a playback of 20W (as an example). what u're hearing/utilising is the different nature of internals, which results in a different unflat output - a different imprinted EQ.

 

the better amps perhaps give an output closer to +/- 1 dB from the original. the poorer amps could fluctuate let's say +/- 3 dB. and if u take +3 dB at let's say a noisy part of the spectrum like 2khz, and do a -3dB at a fun part like the bass 80hz, u'll find this amp is noisy and bassless. do the converse, find an amp with -3dB at 2khz and +3db at 80hz, and u think, wah, this amp can blast, not noisy and yet strong and bassy.

 

all these are our "audiophilic interpretations" of the amp qualities. nothing really to do with how much RMS/MAX/Anything/Whatever current, voltage, heat the amp can potentially put out.

 

 

i'm no amp designer. in fact, i do NOT know anything about amp design.

so i beg you, please fire me, i wanna learn too.

[Bluemice]

can use the 4075, then re-wire to run active, then leave the sub amp alone for the time being. this is the cheapest option as no matter wat, u still need to do this step if to run active. if dun like, then add another amp. only diff is toleave extra length of wire when connecting the tweets.

 

if u worry abt power, can get a 2200 or 2050 pro to drive the mids, but then again, if u recall, the 1075 bridged can drive ur sub swee swee, shd hv a prob to drive the mids.

 

my A6 driving the id12 still can make it, just that now little time to play n tune, i didnt really spend lots time to tune it gd, even at basic, still i feel is pretty gd liao.

 

oh, the fb pro ratings are passive ones, thus if u consider active mode. it wun req so much one.

 

mice

[Vblaster_w211]

Thanks for detailed insight.

 

But what if the mids need to be driven nearer to the max rms of the amps? Power ratings would probably play a part with regards to likelihood of distortion near max amplification.

 

Closest to what you just stated would be to try the same series of amps from same manufacturer, but with different rms ratings to drive the same speakers. There is a difference, otherwise, there is no need for these power ratings anymore on both the speakers and amps. This will be like using the 4075 vs the higher powered 2 channel (but same series) 2200.

 

So while I agree with you on the higher quality amps having less distortion etc, I believe power rating matching do play a part.

Edited September 2, 2007 by Vblaster_w211

[Vblaster_w211]

Maybe I'll try with the 4075 first to drive the tweeters and mids, an if the results are not desirable, then step up to another 2200. But that means I'll have to find a taker for my mono then

 

You're right that the rms ratings for FB Pro is passive (meaning loss at crossover and split to driive tweeters and mids from one source). So maybe the 4075 should be more than sufficient when on active.

Edited September 2, 2007 by Vblaster_w211

[Bluemice]

no worries abt the mono amp, dun buy first. ie just use the 4075 and drive front, then leave the sub alone for a week or two... in fact this way, ie sub less setup, would allow you to visualise the front details even clearer.

 

do try n keep us posted, anyway, if u letting off ur FB Pro( by any chance... , do keep me posted). now my ears also getting a bit itchy.

 

mice

[Vblaster_w211]

No way I'm letting go my FB Pro Kit. They've been nicely ran in, and sound much better than when I first had them.

[Hyun]

> But what if the mids need to be driven nearer to the max rms of the amps?

 

how loud do you want them to play? perhaps a few benchmarks: IASCA/EMMA competition standard? beyond that level? pseudo-in-car-disco standard? the latter is probably the loudest. i've tried to play loud till the point i find too deafening, and i think it came up to almost 105-110dB-peak without sub included. it was deafening and i don't think i can even play that for 20 minutes. this is peak level, and it's quite safe to use this as a max reference point, cos the more expensive the amp, the peak tends to be MORE than double the RMS, rather than LESS. i.e. if ur cheap amp can play this peak, expensive amps sure no problem.

 

to achieve this deafening level, even the lower sensitivity midbasses just require about 75WRMS to produce a 150Wpeak to get this level. and it's so loud, a more listenable level would be at least 3dB softer, and that, yes, only requires half of 75WRMS, which is even less than 40WRMS.

 

looking at these figures, we're nowhere close to even 3-digit wattage. and if u've been following the discussion on exponential nature of power ratings, 100W is hardly any different from 75W. it's just about 1.5 steps on your volume control.

 

> Closest to what you just stated would be to try the same series of amps from same manufacturer, but with different rms ratings to drive the same speakers

 

again, the internals can be so different that it produces a different, potentially more pleasing output. perhaps some companies just simply swop power supply to give a bigger published figure to push sales.

 

> There is a difference, otherwise, there is no need for these power ratings anymore on both the speakers and amps

 

The difference, as i'm trying to allude (perhaps with error due to my poor understanding of amp electronics) is due to the other components in the amp, NOT the electricity-supplying-side (also known as POWER).

 

> there is no need for these power ratings anymore

 

Need. otherwise how to make business, sell more things, make people upgrade, or, to go by the famous EMMA line: to help promote the INDUSTRY?

 

i'm not trying to say which brand of amp or speaker is good or no good, nor which installer etc. i'm just delving on this frequently-mentioned topic of "power rating", where people use these numbers to imply that something is better, simply from this number. or when people decide that the number is NOT enough and they need to upgrade, simply because the new speaker they're buying as a published MAX TOLERANCE RATING which is of a big number. all that says is, this speaker CAN BE BLASTED CONTINUOUSLY and wun spoil when u supply big current/voltage to it. it's not saying "you need an amp that also has a maximum potential, yet unused, electricity supply, otherwise it sounds crap / u spoil ur speaker / u spoil ur amp / u kenna criticised by ur audiophile friends".

 

i've friends in the audio line as well, and i'm sorry if saying these things might spoil business. perhaps using a different sales line might be more appropriate?

 

there are some forummers here well-versed in amp design, and i hope they contribute. i wanna learn more too and i'm basing all this on my zero knowledge in amp design.

[Vblaster_w211]

Hyun, I know you're using the same line of logic. Agree that internals is likely to be the main contribution to fidelity, but has not addressed conclusively that having a lower powered amp is more than sufficient to drive speakers that are higher rated and not as easy to drive.

 

Same applies for home theatres as well or even headphones that are hard to drive like Sennheiser HD590. Have tried driving HD590 from source, and it sounded flat. Using the same source but a proper gain amp for cans, the sound became alive. No colouration, same source, higher power.

 

The only thing is car interior is more contained, so under normal light listening, the power discrepancy is unlikely to be noticed.

 

But likely for the FB Pro, I think the 4075 should be more than sufficient, given that the rms ratings are for passive, which means it already catered for loss at cross-over and also to split bet tweeters and mids.

Edited September 3, 2007 by Vblaster_w211

[Dclk]

VBlaster

 

I have the PHD FB 6.1 Kit Pro like you do, using them for the front. For the rear, I have the PHD co-axial. Sub-woofer is a very old Focal 10 inch. I am using the factory fitted Pioneer headunit (30 watts per channel) on my ES300, there is no additional amplification.

 

Although the watts is important, what matters too is the sensitivity of the speakers. The PHD has plenty of that at 91 / 92 db. I have no issue with the low power amplification.

[Vblaster_w211]

You are using your OEM HU to drive FB Pro direct with no amps? I take it that you have an amp to drive your sub, right?

 

Have you heard the FB Pro with amps? Sometimes, we do not miss what we have not heard.

[Dclk]

VBlaster

 

Yes, you are right. I am using the OEM HU direct. The HU has 5 channels, two for the front, two for the rear and one for the sub-woofer. This is the equivalent to an integrated receiver that one finds for home audio.

 

I have heard the FB Kit Pro with different amplifiers at the AudioEdge showroom. They all sound different; they should be. They will also sound different inside my car as the acoustics is not the same. Due to warranty issues, I did not want to add amplification to the HU. Changing speakers represent a viable choice as this involves a one for one replacement and it does involve electronics. I also had the speaker cables rewired with Belden cables.

 

Back to the issue of amplification, it is how well the amp is made rather than the maximum power rating that determines the sound quality. Having the right speaker match would produce the right synergy. Generally, most car audiophiles equate good sound quality with high power ratings. We can see this in a number of the threads in this forum. Power ratings appear to be the key question for matching purposes.

 

I am inclined to think along these:

 

(1)A very good amplifier with low power rating may not perform well with a pair of high powered speakers with low sensitivity.

(2)A poorly designed high power amplifier with a pair of high powered speakers may not be good either.

 

From the above, one can create a few more permutations.

 

With my HU, the first target was to look for a pair of highly efficient speakers. The PHD range fits the requirement with its 91/ 92 db rating. I had a diplomatic argument with the person at AudioEdge (whom I gathered has since left to set up his own car audio shop); he said my HU was under-powered to drive the FB Kit Pro. He did not want to sell the FB Kit Pro to me without a separate amplifier. My response was I knew what I was doing and if after the Kit Pro was installed and it sounded under-powered, they can take them out and be replaced with the lower range PHD speakers. The owner of AudioEdge agreed with my proposal, the Kit Pro was installed and have stayed in my car for nearly two years. I was pleased with AudioEdge's owner for being receptive to my suggestion; after the installation, he spent some time inside my car to listen to the end-results. The type of music I listened to include heavy rock/ metal, rap, dance so I know the set up is capable of handling the high SPL that I normally listen to when I am alone.

 

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying amplifiers do not make a difference, they really do. I feel the power rating issue can be over-done at times. To me, a good low(ish) power amplifier if matched with a good pair of high efficiency speakers will produce good results. Similarly, a good high power amp with appropriately matched speakers can produce the right kind of chemistry. Let's not under-estimate the low-powered equipments; they can still provide you with audio bliss. As a comparison, think of tube amplification for home audio. They are generally low powered, yet they can sound good too.

[Vblaster_w211]

Good point about the sensitivity of the speakers, which is why I suppose you chose phd FB Pro Kit!

 

Discussed with a few chaps at AE. I'm convinced my 4075 is very well matched to drive the FB Pro Kit active.

 

Now narrowed down to which amp to drive my sub. For consistency (especially in visuals), I'll probably go with phd 2200.

 

Then the last headache is amp/woofer placement in my Integra, and also lights for a bit of "bling"

 

Think I'll forego my spare tyre to sit my sub in, and use white LEDs since the phd amps are silverish and should look classy with the white light hue.

 

What do you think?

[Dclk]

Actually, the AF Kit Pro was my first choice. I am confident it would have worked out well in my set up due to its sensitivity. As the previous AudioEdge person was concerned on my low powered amp, I moved one level down to the FB Kir Pro... and they lost a sale in the process. At the time, I understood there were two previous sets being sold, I could have been their third customer. Well, I guess that is all history now...

 

If I were you, I would stick with the 4075 with the FB Kit Pro. In your earlier message, I believe you were thinking of separate amp for bass/ mid and separate amp for the high. That to me would be an overkill. You can save the funds for something else

 

The 2200 should go well with your sub-woofer. Presumably you would be bridging the amp which will give you more than enough juice for your low frequency sound.

 

The Focal sub-woofer in my ES300 is not sitting in the boot. Instead it is sited just behind the middle rear seat. To visualise, you can think of the boot as the speaker cabinet (and a huge one). If you like deep low bass (think of Fourplay, the jazz fusion group), this positioning will maximise the impact. If you like more mid-bass, placing it in the boot will give you the impact (and losing the space of the spare tyre ).

 

Good luck!

[Bluemice]

bro,

 

last note b4 i go to recalled something, that would really seal the fate of using 4075 to drive the FB Pro.

 

rem if u r currently using 2ch to drive the FB Pro passively, there is NO reason why the 4075's 4ch cant support the FB Pro in a active mode, as in fact u r pumpin in more juice to it !

 

Anyway, guess u noe too taht 2200 and 4075 is actually the same amp, i u recall the manual are common for both.

 

btw, ur 4075 is wooden sides or metal ? was told that its able to choose one ??

 

once all done up, do post pics...

 

mice

[Vblaster_w211]

I got the first few batches, so it's wooden sides as default.

 

BTW, heard Audioedge is having a good promo to celebrate their IASCA double win. The 2200 I'm eyeing is now $600 on C&C terms.

[Vblaster_w211]

Yes, I'll be bridging the 2200 so it should be a good match to the CF12.1W sub. Thanks for sharing your experience and setup!