Engine Oil Brands that are not Certified by API , yet print API standard * CONFUSED*

[Elfenstar]

Out of point??? Hardly. Its the same scenario just simplified.

 

Since you have "absolute knowledge" on this why don't you tell me how people can claim they meet 1cm, kg, etc standards without any certification and not be misleading. This would be in contrast to your claim that someone who claims they meet SL, SM etc standards without any certification is misleading??? Wouldn't that be double standards. Also its BIPM not BIMP (so much for absolute knowledge if you cant even get the abbreviation right).

 

Do note that in your requote that "It is a voluntary licensing and certification program that authorizes engine oil marketers... to use the API Engine Oil Quality Marks" This is why they allow any other oil manufacturer to state that they use API standards as long as they do not use certification marks

 

P.S. How would a govt actually check claims for the vast number of localities and companies. In addition, how would they be able to determine which place most of the product was made in considering the most products have different parts made in a place different from their manufacture. Tax evasion is not and has never been under the CPIB. For someone who has "absolute knowledge" in something, its hard to fathom your inability to understand basic concepts.

Edited November 27, 2007 by Elfenstar

[Gim_ong]

CPIB will work with Inland revenue. Do i need to spell out such things.?

How the GOV work, I have no right to interfere their process of official duties.

My stand is that Gov, in the world is dead serious of Tax EVATION and they are not approving that.

 

Tell me which country in their consitution allow this?

_______________________________________

My typing mistake in this,.

 

Since you have "absolute knowledge" on this why don't you tell me how people can claim they meet 1cm, kg, etc standards without any certification and not be misleading."

 

I have NO absolute knowledge, hence Unable to comment on this subject. That is the reason I am making amatuer mistakes in the abbreviation.

________________________________________________

[reply]

This is why they allow any other oil manufacturer to state that they use API standards as long as they do not use certification marks [reply]

 

How are you sure about this?

 

Unless you can get literature from API that support your claims. You can porve me wrong if you have claims from API, and I will be conceded.

 

this leads me to another question.

 

Are Oil manufacturers stating API standards out of convenience?

_____________________________________________________________

I have been using search engine for a while for the subject of approval of statement without certification. And I would continue to do so as long as this subject interest me.

 

Up till now, I have found out that a certain state in US does not allow this to happen.

 

This is found in their specification for pourcurement of lubricant, oil and motor oil.

reference to their intellectual Property http://www.doa.state.nc.us/PandC/SPECS/s9150-1.pdf

It has sate clearly on page 6 , #2 requirement.

 

Well since certain state government differ from the "OK" to state meeting API standard without certification.

 

Why should we as consumer be 2nd class or even 3rd class and say yes to it?

 

We consumer pay money, should not be treated as 2nd class or 3rd class.

___________________________________________

" These emblems go directly on each container of oil that retains the certification for and is there to help consumers identify quality engine oils for their gasoline- and diesel-powered vehicles."

 

This is the way to identify quality engine oil according to API.

 

This is what API have stated, any thoughts that differs, is opposing to API's literature in identifying quality engine oil.

_____________________________________________________

You are yet to answer my question

 

Can a Non-API certified Engine Oil's quality be below the API standard bench mark ?

 

Cheers

Gimmy

Edited November 28, 2007 by Gim_ong

[Elfenstar]

You make too many assumptions. None of them right.

 

Corruption is corruption. Tax evasion is tax evasion. They're unrelated. The only time CPIB and IRA may work together is for the prosecution of someone charged by both departments. This is to save time in court. In reality though, both CPIB and IRA rarely work with any other law enforcement department.

 

What I'm saying is that there is no way a government can check on the location a product is made (depsite what you think), unless its in their country.

 

What I've also been saying is that any product that meets a standard is not misleading the consumer by printing that fact. It is misleading if they do not meet the standard and print that they do. Certification is irrelavant to this argument.

 

 

 

My typing mistake in this,.

 

Since you have "absolute knowledge" on this why don't you tell me how people can claim they meet 1cm, kg, etc standards without any certification and not be misleading."

 

I have NO absolute knowledge, hence Unable to comment on this subject. That is the reason I am making amatuer mistakes in the abbreviation.

 

My, is that a huge turnaround considering you said:

It is instrumentation control Engineering Field. I delcine to talk on this subject as I have absoluite knowledge in this area. I stand to respect the expertise of this field and have decline to comment on this subject altogether.

Were you trying to pull a fast one??

 

 

 

This is why they allow any other oil manufacturer to state that they use API standards as long as they do not use certification marks

How are you sure about this?

 

Unless you can get literature from API that support your claims. You can porve me wrong if you have claims from API, and I will be conceded.

 

Are Oil manufacturers stating API standards out of convenience?

 

For the former go read it up. Everything on testing procedures, to what is allowed or not is on the API website. Thats where I got all my API info with the exception of costs from. In fact, thanks to you I now have a decent understanding on the certification process.

 

For the latter, of course API standards are used out of convenience. If the "brand" wasn't so well known nobody would even bother certifying with them much less use their standards. Its all about marketing. What people really need to check is HOW each of these standards affect their vehicles. If you had spent the same amount of time finding out about the standards instead of trying to say someone is misleading the consumer, you would have realised what the pros and cons of using SM over SL, SJ, etc are. And you could decide on what you want out of your oil instead of blindly following so called "standards" like a sheep (To be honest i can't really blame you as most singaporeans are sheep).

 

 

 

I have been using search engine for a while for the subject of approval of statement without certification. And I would continue to do so as long as this subject interest me.

 

Up till now, I have found out that a certain state in US does not allow this to happen.

 

This is found in their specification for pourcurement of lubricant, oil and motor oil.

reference to their intellectual Property http://www.doa.state.nc.us/PandC/SPECS/s9150-1.pdf

It has sate clearly on page 6 , #2 requirement.

 

Well since certain state government differ from the "OK" to state meeting API standard without certification.

 

Why should we as consumer be 2nd class or even 3rd class and say yes to it?

 

We consumer pay money, should not be treated as 2nd class or 3rd class.

 

Do you even know what the PDF you linked is about??? It is about their requirements. i.e. it is the state placing on paper their choice. It is exactly like what you're saying that "I want to use an API certified oil". If you actually know what they're talking about, they're saying any automotive engine oil purchased by them (with the excpetion of long drain) is required to be API certified. In addition, requirements of the state standards over API certifications is also needed. Does this mean that API standards are second class then???

 

 

 

" These emblems go directly on each container of oil that retains the certification for and is there to help consumers identify quality engine oils for their gasoline- and diesel-powered vehicles."

 

This is the way to identify quality engine oil according to API.

 

This is what API have stated, any thoughts that differs, is opposing to API's literature in identifying quality engine oil.

Exactly. The EMBLEMS are there to help consumers identify.

 

On another note, the API did not state if these oils are high quality, medium quality or low quality.

 

 

 

You are yet to answer my question

 

Can a Non-API certified Engine Oil's quality be below the API standard bench mark ?

Yes. Of course it can. BUT how is that relavant to your statement that an oil that meets the standards and prints that fact is misleading the consumer???

Edited November 28, 2007 by Elfenstar

[Gim_ong]

Tax evading is an Offense, Corruption is also an OFFENSE.

____________________________

 

I have admited to my typing mistake. This is what I have to say on that Issue.

_________________________________________________

 

I am following what API's publication have stated,I am folloing their guidelines.

 

First and foremost, unless you have the credibility to oppose API guidelines n publication. Such as you are an certified Engineer acredited by API or some ISO 9000 professional bodies.

It is quite uncanny that you have made the statement saying that people who follows what a PROFESSIONAL Body's guideline as Sheeps.

 

Are you a qualified shepard ?

______________________________________________________

 

Back to the point of Permissible printing.

 

According to what you have claimed, printing API standard is permissibe.

 

In the event of NO certification,

API does not have the responsiblility to back up the oil manufacturers. Oil manufactuers themselve will then have to give quality assurance to as they manufactured the oil to API standard. Oil Manufacturers's own quality assurance. 卖花说花香.

 

 

It is misleading if they do not meet the standard and print that they do.

 

Commerically Companies including Oil Manufacturers have the mandate to maximise profit etc.

We can have the assumption that majority of the companies are honest and have intergirty in their business dealings.

 

However, we cannot rule out that there will be minority bad hats taking their chances printing the standards when they do not meet the standard and thus according to your above statement, it is misleading.

 

Any form of check and balance from the certification program by API will do some benefits. Regardless to the sample size or methodology like Random test.

It is better than NO checks at all.

____________________________________________

 

" In addition, requirements of the state standards over API certifications is also needed. Does this mean that API standards are second class then??? "

 

This is an OXY Moron

 

A certifed API standard Quality Oil is generally prefered over an UN - certified self claimed Quality Oil.

 

PRICE, brand and distribution channel aside.

 

to say it in another way,

 

A certified quality oil comparing to an Un-certified quality oil.

 

Clearly, Minumun, State GOV Procurement Standards(above reference) will want a Certified Quality Oil.

 

____________________________________________

" you would have realised what the pros and cons of using SM over SL, SJ"

There are literatures available in the net, if any consumer wants to take a step further to read up on that. Nobody is stoping them, even though API's guidline is sufficient.

 

Exactly. The EMBLEMS are there to help consumers identify.

 

On another note, the API did not state if these oils are high quality, medium quality or low quality.

 

API certified Engine Oil with the DONUT are of API certified Standard Quality.

 

 

Cheers

Gimmy

Edited December 13, 2007 by Gim_ong

[Gim_ong]

Thankx man,

 

KIC is an API Certified Standard Quality Engine Oil.

 

Too many companies in the list,....I have over looked.

my bad.

 

Cheers

Gimmy

Edited December 13, 2007 by Gim_ong

[Elfenstar]

Yes both tax evasion and corruption are both offences, but since both of us are human, does that mean we're exactly the same???

 

As for the sheep comment, if you don't know the meaning of this common analogy, i would suggest you not make ridiculous comments as if someone is called a sheep, it means he/she blindly follows.

 

 

 

Back to the point of Permissible printing.

 

According to what you have claimed, printing API standard is permissibe.

 

In the event of NO certification,

API does not have the responsiblility to back up the oil manufacturers. Oil manufactuers themselve will then have to give quality assurance to as they manufactured the oil to API standard. Oil Manufacturers's own quality assurance. 卖花说花香.

 

 

 

It is misleading if they do not meet the standard and print that they do.

 

Commerically Companies including Oil Manufacturers have the mandate to maximise profit etc.

We can have the assumption that majority of the companies are honest and have intergirty in their business dealings.

 

However, we cannot rule out that there will be minority bad hats taking their chances printing the standards when they do not meet the standard and thus according to your above statement, it is misleading.

 

Any form of check and balance from the certification program by API will do some benefits. Regardless to the sample size or methodology like Random test.

It is better than NO checks at all.

 

You said that all companies that print that they meet api standards when not certified are misleading. I've said that it is not the case for oils that do meet the standards. Whether you want to believe, test, etc the claim is for you to decide. Don't go around making blanket statements that are more often than not untrue. You did state above that majority of companies have integrity and honesty which means majority are not misleading. Sure API certification means that there may be tests done for checks, but without finding out how good they really are, you're just blindly following (which leads me back to the sheep comment).

 

 

 

" In addition, requirements of the state standards over API certifications is also needed. Does this mean that API standards are second class then??? "

 

This is an OXY Moron

 

A certifed API standard Quality Oil is generally prefered over an UN - certified self claimed Quality Oil.

 

PRICE, brand and distribution channel aside.

 

to say it in another way,

 

A certified quality oil comparing to an Un-certified quality oil.

 

Clearly, Minumun, State GOV Procurement Standards(above reference) will want a Certified Quality Oil.

 

No... the state govt requires API standards as a base, but there are other standards above those that are also required. So its API + other standard as a minimum (not API on its own). Since you inferred that using a lower quality is "second class", doesnt that mean that API standards are lower in quality than those of the state govt which means API standards are second class???

 

How much easier (and cheaper) is it for them this way. Afterall now they only need to test for the areas in which a higher standard than API's for their requirements instead of testing everything.

 

Btw an oxymoron means there a paradox in the meaning of two words in a phrase often linked to each other. You got its definition wrong.

 

 

 

 

" you would have realised what the pros and cons of using SM over SL, SJ"

There are literatures available in the net, if any consumer wants to take a step further to read up on that. Nobody is stoping them, even though API's guidline is sufficient.

 

How is their guidline sufficient?? Do they state how much wear is allowable?? What about the durability of the oil??? And how well it cleans the engine??? Oh wait, you tested and compared it to other oils so you know that API is better......

 

 

 

Exactly. The EMBLEMS are there to help consumers identify.

 

On another note, the API did not state if these oils are high quality, medium quality or low quality.

 

API certified Engine Oil with the DONUT are of API certified Standard Quality.

 

So did the API stated if the oils are higher, average or low quality in comparison to others??? Oh wait, again I forgot you tested them against other oils or read up on the results to know they're high quality.

[Megalord]

I can answer the question YES and NO.

 

It is because

1) Non - API Certified Oil can Meet API Standard

2) Non -API certified Oil can be lower than API Standard

3) No - API Certified Oil can be HIGHER than API Standard .

 

YES , NO , NO .. or NO yes yes . It depends how you phase the question.

 

Non -API certified better than API certified Oil ?

 

for 1) ans = NO

for 2) ans = NO

for 3) ans = yes

_______________________________

 

Since you have a problem with ur car,

Why dun you submit a claim to API?

 

Cheers

Gimmy

 

 

 

cheers

Gimmy

 

Again, you are trying to evade MY question.

Its simple. I am talking about FOR ALL Certified Engine OIL, Brand and Model.

 

1) Is their standard CONFIRM better than any of the non-certified API oils?

2) Do they provide better protection that of a non-API certified oil?

3) Do they provide better performance than that of a non-API certified oil?

 

You are telling me,

yes, no, no

no, yes, yes

depending on how i phase my question? Now tell me, read my question as it is, and tell me, is it not clear?

"ALL Certified Engine OIL, Brand and Model" and "any of the non-certified oils".

What is not clear? Clear this doubt, and we can talk further.

 

When i ask you if this person is a boy or girl, don't tell me that this person looks like a boy from the side, a gal from 60 degree angle up there, yet like a boy 65degree on the right. All i want is an answer, how you interpret to get the answer, is your problem.

 

Please eloborate on this one instead.

"Non -API certified better than API certified Oil ?

 

1) Is their standard CONFIRM better than any of the certified API oils?

2) Do they provide better protection that of a API certified oil?

3) Do they provide better performance than that of a API certified oil?

 

for 1) ans = NO

for 2) ans = NO

for 3) ans = yes

"

Is this what you mean? Did i get it right? Please clear all doubts before we proceed. Sick and tired of you running around with interpretations, and the yes and no answers. Try that in any pri/sec/jc/poly/uni in a MCQ exam.

[Megalord]

_______________________________

 

Since you have a problem with ur car,

Why dun you submit a claim to API?

 

Cheers

Gimmy

 

 

 

cheers

Gimmy

 

You are giving warrenty on API behalf, that any blow-by or wear and tear due to use of API-certified oil, is claimable. Do i understand it correctly?

[Megalord]

I am telling you, that is good marketing sense, to be API certified. Not in terms of advertisement. Who cares about advertisements? You actually read them? API certification is avoided like plaugue to me. Please don't mislead me that its giving consumers assurance.

 

How did it give you assurance?

The lowered ZDDP contents gave you assurance i presume? Can i assume that?

Any wear and tear is paid and settled for? You seem to lay that claim earlier by telling me to submit a claim to API. Did i get that correctly?

API takes over the manufacturer warrenty by providing lifetime warrenty for the engine instead? You seem to advocate that.

 

Please clear our doubts as to the above.

 

Responsible? I say not, its just make good marketing sense when you have the money to spend in that area.

 

 

take for instance , X rev oil, they would rather spend money to advertise on Wheels magazine, I have seen them in a couple of issues.

 

Such is their marketing efforts?

 

They would rather spend money on such advertisement, than getting themselves API-Certified.

 

They could spend their money in a more responsible way to give assurance to their Consumers.

 

That is to get themselves API-Certified.

 

Let's face it, every Engine Oil company have some form of Marketing effort. If not we who are not in the industry will never hear of them.

 

But some spend money in a more responsible way.

 

Cheers

Gimmy

[Megalord]

So did the API stated if the oils are higher, average or low quality in comparison to others??? Oh wait, again I forgot you tested them against other oils or read up on the results to know they're high quality.

 

Bro, you sure he actually tested the oils and even readup on them? From his talks, i seriously doubt so. Seems like he is clouded by the marketing part.

[Elfenstar]

I was actually being sarcastic and i think he would know that This has been an awesome thread on learning perseverance I've managed to say the same thing over and over and over and over.... again... and i hope managed to make it a lil clearer each time

 

All good anyway. With uni over and not being too busy with work until the last two weeks, i was a lil bored anyway

[Glyuen]

The thing is that API standards change, as does technology so oil companies do need to update their formulas. The recent problem many manufacturers seem to be having from what i've read is to maintain anti-wear properties of their products with API's new standards with regards to improving the lifespan of cat converters. I don't think the big companies would have a problem, but i suspect the smaller ones would in terms of costs.

 

Personally i would rather spend $200 on a cat converter than $800 to rebuild my engine. (OK thats a blatant lie, I would rather the latter as it gives me an excuse to upgrade internals )

 

As for united oil, maybe they use money from the other wiranto group companies to help them get their own oil line started??? I dunno on this on though. its just a guess.

 

I've never seen their oil but will keep a lookout for it. If i can find it, i will give it a try. afterall its made in sg and thats one of the reasons why i keep using elf oils. Is there a singapore site??? I've only seen the aussie and nz sites.

 

u can buy them (United oil) from alexandra village.

[Genie47]

The lowered ZDDP contents gave you assurance i presume?

Gimme some MolyEP please!

[Gim_ong]

am telling you, that is good marketing sense, to be API certified. Not in terms of advertisement. Who cares about advertisements? You actually read them? API certification is avoided like plaugue to me. Please don't mislead me that its giving consumers assurance.

 

now you are talking.

 

If you have the perception that I am misleading you, it is purely ur perception. Marketing is a big subject of expetise, it has a subset called Adevertising.

 

API takes over the manufacturer warrenty by providing lifetime warrenty for the engine instead? You seem to advocate that.

 

YOu have the perception , i cannot help you .

API is a body similar to ISO

 

If you want to see what kind of assurance they(API) give, then you have to read up on what is their stand.

 

I dun take money from API, thus will not spend effort in explaining to you .

 

I am just telling people to use API certified Oil, since there is a professional body(API) under the umbrella of ISO setting the standard of Engine Oil. And if the Oil is certifeid

 

If you are the self acclaimed expert in Oil, that have come kind of conviction believing that using non- API certified Oil is good according to your own personnal preference. It is completely your freedom of choice thus it has been backed up by your knowledge in Engine Oil .

 

 

 

Cheers

Gimmy

Edited December 26, 2007 by Gim_ong

[Gim_ong]

Yes both tax evasion and corruption are both offences, but since both of us are human, does that mean we're exactly the same???

 

I will not answer this pointless question.

 

You did state above that majority of companies have integrity and honesty which means majority are not misleading.

 

It is as Simple as ,

 

Low crime does not mean NO crime.

 

Yes majority companies can be honest. There is still some black sheeps.

 

Well .. no matter what, we cannot rule out the black sheeps MISLEADING the consumers. There are certain degrees risk here.

 

Can U gurantee , there is no Black sheeps ?

 

Even China, which is the biggest manufacturing nation in recent times can have the Quality issue of LEAD on TOYS?

 

These are children for goodness sake!! These bad sheeps have led to the China to her National Shame world wide.

 

You have the perception of me blanketing all non-certified Engine Oil makers.

That is just ur perception. I cannot change your point of view. I will not borther to do so anyway. You are entitled to your own opinion after all.

 

What I am trying to say thus far, is trying to protect the interest of Consumers at large. Trying to send a message to Oil manufacturer to be responsible to End Users.

 

Nobody can gurantee that there will not have quality issue, getting Engine Oil APi Certified is a measure against quality of Engine Oil not meeting the API standard.

 

So long as Consumer interest's is protected. It is sufficient for me. Getting Engine Oil Certified by API is one way.

 

Because of the presence of black sheeps, I am exercising my comsumer rights as buying from only certified API engine Oil. 宁可杀错，不可放过。

__________________________________________________________________

How much easier (and cheaper) is it for them this way. Afterall now they only need to test for the areas in which a higher standard than API's for their requirements instead of testing everything.

 

Why spend money on something that have been already been certified and re-test?

 

It is because API certified Oil does provide a degree of acceptance. Only those un-certified area need to be tested.

__________________________________________________________________

So did the API stated if the oils are higher, average or low quality in comparison to others???

 

U really ask something, before you activate your wisdom.

 

HIGH Quality (How High)

Average Quality (How average)

Low Quality (How Low)

 

The above states your ambiguousness in your question .

 

API Certified Engine is suppose to have met the standard quality.( The bench mark)

 

for instance

Human Body is ard 36.8 degree C for a NORMAL State. (the bench mark)

 

anything above or below is not NORmal a normal state.

 

You are basically asking if American Petrolieum Insitute has done a good job. In other words you are questioning the professionism of API.

 

My previous answer is, API certified Engine Oil is of API standard Quality ( the bench mark)

 

Why I even borther explaining when you have ambiguously asked your question?

 

Cheers

Gimmy

Edited December 26, 2007 by Gim_ong

[Megalord]

Of course i am talking, do you wanna restrict my whereabouts and long holidays i was having? I did not impose it on you, i hope you don't do it on me.

Its your perception that those things gives consumer assurance. I am telling you being in the known technically, it is not giving me or others with knowledge, consumer assurance. Marketing? Indeed, i don't have a PHD in this, but i have several colleagues with it, and you may want to discuss it with them. The quality of their knowledge is not a question, but in your kind of arguement, at least they are certified, by a professional body. Do you happen to be well versed in this field anyway?

 

You think i have the perception about you adovocating with this post:

"API takes over the manufacturer warrenty by providing lifetime warrenty for the engine instead? You seem to advocate that."

 

I have already read the kind of assurance they gave since almost a decade back, but i don't see anything as to warrent my car engine from API by using API certified oils.

 

Was it my perception? You told me to approach API after the manufacturer warrenty has ended, didn't you? Did i perceive that? In fact, i would like to clearify that as many car owners are looking at this thread regarding the warrenty issue. We see light in having costly repairs shouldered by someone or some organization.

 

You don't take money from API, that i understand. But with the mild knowledge you have shown about lubrication, you simply have not backed yourself up with many claims. The yes and no answers, we are still waiting for your reply. Much of the audience are still awaiting your yes and no answers.

 

So what if a professional body certification exist? Do you actually understand what it takes to be certified? Why the debates over API SM and SL grades? Why Audi warned their customers back then from using the then API SM oils? Was it because Audi had their own oil standard? Or? Tell us then.

 

I didn't self claim to be an expert in oil, like mentioned far earlier i do not have much knowledge about it and as a result i hired someone who is well versed in it, but i reckon when it is relative to you, i am not ashamed to claim myself one. Indeed i have backed myself up by using oils that suit my driving behavior, and not blindly using API certified oils. I admit that i have used some API oils before, but they just happen to be API certified, no because they are API certified.

 

Phew, i definately need to excercise my fingers by typing.

[Megalord]

Am i right to say, all your basis and talks about oils are all but only based on the "professionalism of API"? Is this, all the technical knowledge about lubrication you have?

 

Do you even know why many performance oils cannot be API certified? if you tell us its due to questionable quality due to the inability to achieve API certification, you have already slapped yourself.

[Noszex]

anyone heard of petronas syntium engine oil