Fiat Stilo

[W210k]

For folks who disdain TC cars (like me), STI and Legacy GT though they are good cars, are out. Just the thought of maintaining a boxer enginer (I owned an Alfa before) is one thing ... a TC boxer ... urgh! How many 3P workshops know how to tune a boxer engine? You need a manometer to balance the pressure on either side. Access to the cylinder head and spark plugs already require to remove plenty of stuff. Yes, the fun factor is always there, but I am talking about long-term living with and maintaining such a car. You need time, money and patience.

 

EuroR is great ... but I am no supporter for PI cars (also having owned a PI Merc before and gave up after 1.5 years) due to half-baked support from non-agent workshops. Imagine trying to force-fit parts from earlier versions (but same model) until I told them to stop and they checked to find that they have got the wrong part number! I have friends owning other PI cars involved in accidents without proper replacement parts and/or new body panels available. Nitty gritty stuff like parts of a JDM Camry cannot be used for an Australian Camry and all the blah!

 

Having said that, a Fiat is by no means the most reliable car on the market. So if anyone buys one, have to live with things failing every now and then. I too have owned a Fiat 124 Special many many years ago. After x years, things will fail / fall off one by one. But to Fiat's credit, I believe they have improved on their quality and reliability by leaps and bounds and I think the 2005 cars are near Euro standard. Even VW (I too owned one for many years) and BMW are not infallable when it comes to the reliability stakes ... that's just how conti cars are made out to be. Not even Mercs!

 

All these aside, I think the Fiat Stilo 2.4L 5-cylinder 20v 170 bhp engine will be very nice to drive. I have my reservations on the electric-power steering (lack feel) and their (still) using a torsion beam for the rear suspensions, which might not give great handling at high speeds around bends, unlike say a Golf (multi-link), or better still an IS200 (double wishbones).

Edited July 14, 2005 by W210k

[W210k]

Much as I prefer the Schumacher manual tranny, I was told it only comes in RED.

I am not one for red cars.

 

As for the Arbath 3-dr and the 5-dr versions, they only come with Selespeed.

If that is anything like Alfa's, then its still not perfect in that jerks are still apparent when you floor the accelerator. Nothing like VW GTI's double-clutched DSG, which is jerk-free.

[Eugeng]

can call me , but personally I prefer to feel the gear change with a little jerk.. haaaaa....... too smooth a bit like electric car...

[W210k]

Don't get me wrong ... even Lexus' auto tranny upshifts on drags can be felt. OK to me.

 

But for Alfa Selespeed on drag, I think its more like a lunge / lurch forward each time it upshifts. It gets worse when you are on "City" mode and dragging the car.

[Eugeng]

Citymode me not sure lah.. but I only find 1st to 2nd will feel the lurch.. otherwise.. I think it pretty good for me leh..or I too numb liao.. haaaa, but wifey didnt complain also, so should be okie ...

[Felipe]

can't believe the stilo is electric power steering. for bigger cc cars, this is really not necessary. in fact, ep steering does powerful cars no justice at all. if im those who just drive from point a to b and want an easy relax time, ep steering is good. but for buyers who are into faster, engaging cars, eps is absoultely a no-no.

[Tron]

sigh... hear abt this so many times... alfa definitely not a perfect car, but for all the flak its drawn (or none) - i feel one shld compare apples wit apples and have realistic expectations for such clutchless manuals..

 

i said it before and i ask again: the bmw M5 wit its clutchless manual causes jerks (which tiff needel claims can cause whiplash ) at its fastest shift-setting (it has 6 shift speed settings if im not wrong)...

 

so does this mean the DSG being so smooth is supposedly "better" than the clutchless manual in the BMW M5??

 

and dun get me wrong too, I tried the dsg in the Golf gti and it was GREAT to say the least.

 

my point is if we are gonna go comparing the selespeed or clutchless manuals in GENERAL in terms of the "jerk-factor"... then its really missing the point for such technology altogether...

 

the Selespd has definitely improved over the the generations since it was launched... but personally its often how one drives the car tat causes it to jerk.. e.g: even whn i drive my manual 147 FAST i often cause my passengers' heads to jerk forward & back.

 

so let things be put in proper perspective... i say.

 

P.S: and oh yes,, the "whiplash" in the M5 can be eliminated by slightly lifting-off the throttle when u shift... (hint HINT HINT!!)

Edited July 15, 2005 by Tron

[Littleblackalfa]

As for the Arbath 3-dr and the 5-dr versions, they only come with Selespeed.

If that is anything like Alfa's, then its still not perfect in that jerks are still apparent when you floor the accelerator. Nothing like VW GTI's double-clutched DSG, which is jerk-free.

 

Define perfect. That it's so smooth that you don't feel the shift? Well, physically speaking, it's just not possible.

 

Think of it in a manual transmission. To achieve a flawless shift, you have to heel and toe. How smoothly can you heel-and-toe? And when you do so at high revs, you're likely to run out of RPM to blip the throttle. Also, when you're running drag, you'll throw/pop the clutch. This is jerky for manuals even. (whoever thought of dragging in an auto?)

 

Now, the programming for the Selespeed is throttle angle based. The higher RPM you shift, the ECU assumes you want power on your next gear. rather than perform a smooth shift, it throws the clutch for you to maximise power on the next gear. If you shift at low gears, it's smoother than an auto anytime. The Selespeed isn't perfect, but it's got nothing to do with the shifting. Anyone who claims the Selespeed is jerky, simply doesn't know how to drive one. Even some Alfa Owners... serious.

 

and who in their right mind would run a drag in City Mode???

 

If the DSG shifts smoothly at WOT and high RPM, then I'll tell you it's not efficient enough, and the car can actually be faster if it just pops the clutch. Meaning the DSG is actually dissipating power for the GTi, which IMO, is weak.

 

Oh yeah, and I LOVE red... Some cars look great in red, some don't. My own car is black. whahaha... (din dare to buy red, but I'd dream of it...)

Edited July 15, 2005 by Littleblackalfa

[Eyke]

Fiat going to replace current Stilo with new model in the near future coz it's not selling well [according to autoexpress.co.uk]

[Felipe]

makes sense about the jerkiness factor...ive never driven an F1 car. but judging by the way those guys heads bang around everytime they shift gears, i seriously think its anything but smooth. yet, tat doesnt mean the F1 gearbox is lousy. for me, smoothness is a pretty bad indicator to judge the performance of a gearbox

[Lordalfa]

Replace the cannot make it 20v 2.4 with a can make it 20v Turbo from the Fiat Coupe.

[Cool_jazz]

heard you traded your 147GTA for the 156 GTA selespeed ... so how's it compared to the run of the mill 5 speed selespeed?

[Cool_jazz]

Did you buy the IS200 after the Benz?

[W210k]

The DSG does not have to 'pop the clutch' on rapid upshifts, since it uses two (2) clutch sets, one for the odd gears and another for the even gears. The mechanical switch over can be done on the fly, since the next-gear engagement and the current-gear disengagement can be done nearly simultaneously, independent of each other.

 

Face it, its a much more advanced technology than the Selespeed ... and is actually even much more efficient than the Selespeed in terms of power dissipation and loss.

 

There is tons of literature on the web on the DSG technicalities. Go read. You'll understand then why Selespeed is old-tech, previous-gen.

 

p.s. Pls do not be confused with BMW's DSG on the M3 and M5. That is still based on a single-clutch mechatronic system and thus have similar jerks as the Selespeed.

[W210k]

Yes. Handles much better than the Merc I had, but ride is not as cushy / pliant ... probably due to the standard profile-45 tyres fitted. But around fast bends and even high-speed road humps, you can feel the difference with F/R double-wishbones, compared to even the Merc's setup.

 

In addition 6-pot engine much smoother than my 4-pot Merc, during idling as well as at max revs.

 

The thing about Kompressor engines is that it develops max torque early at ~2,500 rpm, but then the 2L engine also runs out of breath early, by about 5,500 rpm. Its just a different engine design / drivability concept ... compared to IL-6, multi-valve NA engines which are more free-revving, but develops all the oomph at much higher rpms.

 

SAAB vs Honda? To each his own.

[Littleblackalfa]

Ah... I see what you mean. However...

 

Twin plate clutches in a full manual system gives you knee cap breaking pressure. it also gives you killer biting response, and full heavy metal headbanging experiences. I've tried one in an R34(JDM) previously and a FD3S(JDM), and the clutch was so hard, I had to literally stand on it. Because of that pressure, and perhaps the lack of strength in my left leg, the clutch was either on, or off. No half clutching was possible for me. It still pops. Regardless of rpm. I was kangaroo-ing through the streets of Azabu-Juban. It was uncomfortable as hell, but damn fast. Strangely, because of RPM matching, the shifts got progressively smoother the higher I shifted. smoother, but not perfectly seamless.

 

Now, if the DSG is capable of handling the twin plate clutch fully automated, it is possible to ease out the shifts, but that still dissipates power because it's programmed to shift smoothly, even though it shifts faster than your own hands can. I'm not saying it's a bad system, I'm just saying the GTi could be more efficient if it was fully manual. Imagine the DSG not shifting smoothly. Imagine the twin clutches pop, and the gears engaged immediately. sure, its' jerky, but far more efficient. and helluva lot more fun to drive. If the DSG was programmed like the Selespeed's nature, and mated with Twin Plate Clutches, DAMN! I'd buy one for sure... Smoothness is good, but I'd like to have a little control over how it shifts.

 

The Selespeed is old technology. That's true. But it's proven itself over the years, in many applications, including F1. (yes, it's pretty much the same system that M.Schumacher uses, except it was adapted for street use).

 

Anyways, the point made by myself and Tron were basically that the jerk-factor is a poor way to rate a transmission with regards to power, unless you're looking at nothing but comfort.

[Seansene]

The thing about the DSG is not about twin or single plates, but two clutches. So no problems associated with multi-plated clutches here. Just the individual clutches working in tandem to ensure immediate and smooth transition of power.

[Littleblackalfa]

ooo! 2 separate clutches? I assumed it was a twin clutch system, not double clutch system... that makes more sense then... wah... the software in the transmission ECU must have been a bitch to write...