AWARE saga-very ironical

[Yipsy1]

Too much poking lah, no longer fun.

They don't have Jerusalem digest then u know.

Josephus is a highly regarded historian. And how many historians report events they themselves have observed? The website just loves to disregard evidence as hearsay. That is downright un-scholarly.

There are many other sites giving examples of historical mention of the man Jesus on the Web, you can do your further research easily. Example http://www.sowhataboutjesus.com/existed.php

 

 

Bro, existence of Jesus is very subjective, depends on which website you search. This website disputes what is mentioned in your website.

http://www.truthbeknown.com/pliny.htm

 

The fact is the Bible is full of contradictions, especially in the area of science and technology. Clearly written by primitive men who had no knowledge of science. Many Christians I know do not even know the existence of these verses.

 

Illness is caused by demonic possession (Luke 6:17),

Some people live almost a thousand years (Gen 5:27)

Those of faith can drink poison without being affected (Mark 16:17-18)

 

The Bible is also one of the bloodiest books in history.

God killed everyone except a few people in a global flood [estimated at 30 million] (Gen 6)

Killed all the innocent firstborn of Egypt [estimated at 500,000] (Ex. 11)

Killed 15,000 people for complaining (Num 16)

Killed 24,000 for immorality (Num 25)

Killed everyone in the city of Jerico (Joshua 6)

Killed 12,000 people in a day because they were in the "promised land" (Joshua 8)

 

Probably you could open a new thread, I cannot do that now. Not sure why.

[Falc]

If no fun then stop already. I love playing the devils advocate but if it isn't fun anymore then it should end (soon )

 

By the way most historians record from first hand accounts or comment on first hand accounts. Thus it isn't un-scholarly to dismiss those non-first-hand recordings as hearsay. Saying that historians made a spelling error to justify claims on the other hand is un-scholarly.

 

Only problem with Josephus was that there was no mention about Jesus anywhere until it came out from someone who was from the Catholic church. Tell me how reliable that is.

 

The problem with most "scholarly" analysis of if Jesus existed is based on the bible to confirm what the bible says. How is that an analysis??? While Christians use hearsay to back up these scholarly analysis's.

 

Using evidence (or the lack thereof), Jesus is just a myth, and not even an original one as there were hundreds of very similar gods that "existed" before him

 

I'm going to end it here, but its still food for thought.

 

Bro get real please. It is no devils advocate play when u started making general claims. Healthy skepticism is good, asking qns is good, but not when you think u have THE answer for the world already.

 

There are clearly wealth of info on the web, and to undertake a task of ascertaining the historicity of Jesus require nothing less than devotion. You can read an anti or pro website's conclusion and be happy about it, but if you are the more scholarly sort , you may want to hit the library and search out all the references, and the references linked to the references. If not, then it simply doesn't do justice to make general claims as facts, and not articles of faith.

 

Lastly, if one accept wiki as anything worthy of a read, here's the link discussing the topic. You don't have the accept it blindly, but it has all references from cross checking which makes it a good starting point.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_o...o-Roman_sources

 

Edited May 6, 2009 by Falc

[Falc]

Bro, existence of Jesus is very subjective, depends on which website you search. This website disputes what is mentioned in your website.

http://www.truthbeknown.com/pliny.htm

 

The fact is the Bible is full of contradictions, especially in the area of science and technology. Clearly written by primitive men who had no knowledge of science. Many Christians I know do not even know the existence of these verses.

 

Illness is caused by demonic possession (Luke 6:17),

Some people live almost a thousand years (Gen 5:27)

Those of faith can drink poison without being affected (Mark 16:17-18)

 

The Bible is also one of the bloodiest books in history.

God killed everyone except a few people in a global flood [estimated at 30 million] (Gen 6)

Killed all the innocent firstborn of Egypt [estimated at 500,000] (Ex. 11)

Killed 15,000 people for complaining (Num 16)

Killed 24,000 for immorality (Num 25)

Killed everyone in the city of Jerico (Joshua 6)

Killed 12,000 people in a day because they were in the "promised land" (Joshua 8)

 

Probably you could open a new thread, I cannot do that now. Not sure why.

 

You are right it is subjective. My qualm is with folks making outrageous claims without substantiating it.

And my intention is never to convert anyone, and not to talk about religion in this thread. But when there are religious attacks, it calls for a reply. So there's no need for a new thread on my side.

 

If you see a need from your side, then convince mr elfenstar or the other guy to start one for you since u can't.

 

[Nolicense]

I think self radicalising used to be a crazy idea invented by the PAP.

 

after this aware case, its not just islam but even christians can get self radicalised. and i think the idea is not so crazy after all.

 

 

[Viceroymenthol]

I think self radicalising used to be a crazy idea invented by the PAP.

 

after this aware case, its not just islam but even christians can get self radicalised. and i think the idea is not so crazy after all.

 

Not only that... in Singapore, Islamic radicals mostly come from commoner, working class backgrounds.

 

Christian radicals in Singapore include highly educated and influential professionals, people involved in politics , listed company directors, and other prominent elites.

 

So they are much much more 'dangerous' because of their influence and money.

[Nolicense]

i see many factors dividing the issues..

rich class vs poor class

religion vs religion

race vs race

power vs masses

elite vs non-elite

 

list goes on. just dun know which one or a combination of factors will pull too hard to tear our social fabric.

you never know if some minority actually grabs power in the end. so much for democracy when there are no safe guards or the only safe guards can easily be manipulated by the powers that be.

[Leeshunda100]

Not only that... in Singapore, Islamic radicals mostly come from commoner, working class backgrounds.

 

Christian radicals in Singapore include highly educated and influential professionals, people involved in politics , listed company directors, and other prominent elites.

 

So they are much much more 'dangerous' because of their influence and money.

 

 

Totally agreed...elites. we need a king to suduce them

[Jamesc]

i'm so glad that joise is out.

 

referring to my previous posts, i never like her and her team

 

and bringing church into picture.. this is very bad, esp in SG where religion is very sensitive.

 

even the senior pastor got to make a public apology for blindly following that stupid woman.

 

for those MCFers who show support for her, better shut up now.

 

Worst is now she got to answer for that $90,000 spend within one month!!! i tell u, law suits will follow. and she will definitely lose her stupid DBS job. i can assure you this.

 

No boss will want bad publicity on his staff mis-using $$, and it is made worse that she's in DBS bank, a financial institution where it's supposed to manage $$ in proper ways.

 

i already said in my previous posts that she will definitely get sacked from DBS. Just mark my words.

 

some MCFers asked will get sacked over a hobby? this is NOT a hobby!!! She's so bloody greedy for power and attention.

 

She tried to turn AWARE into a christian group. This is a very BAD move in SG. I can already see what she was trying to do this right from the beginning.

 

I'm an Anglican and i dun even support what she's doing, because in God's eye, this is so wrong.....

 

You NEVER politicize religion.

 

So she deserves this. I show no sympathy to her.

 

 

Anyone else thinks Josie should pay back the $90,000 she was not

 

authorised to spend out of her own pocket?

 

"Sally Ang believes in giving a voice to women by telling them to sit down and shut up!" - I say one!

 

"Josie believes in women standing up for their rights by asking them to sit down!" - I say one also!

 

[Falc]

To the guys, will reading gay porn make you like guys more? Will reading Aware's document on homosexuality is normal make you like guys now or in the future? If your answer is yes, Toulouse's view that books can effect sexual preference change is true.

 

For an adult maybe not. But for a kid in secondary school, it's a possible yes. I still remember during sec sch, me and a few friends were caught with porn mag that one of us was enthusiastically showing the rest. It was enlightening to say the least If we had seen gay porn then, who knows if some of us will try it out .... Don't over estimate the maturity of impressionable youths. And don't underestimate their (as we were once) propensity to do stupid things too!

 

[Silver_blade]

 

Anyone else thinks Josie should pay back the $90,000 she was not

 

authorised to spend out of her own pocket?....

Paying out of her own pocket or not, that's for the ex-NG to decide among themselves. But they indeed were not in line with the AWARE's constitution according to reports.

Edited May 6, 2009 by Silver_blade

[Falc]

 

Anyone else thinks Josie should pay back the $90,000 she was not

 

authorised to spend out of her own pocket?

 

"Sally Ang believes in giving a voice to women by telling them to sit down and shut up!" - I say one!

 

"Josie believes in women standing up for their rights by asking them to sit down!" - I say one also!

 

How much would the venue for the EGM cost already? I reckon it won't be cheap, unless Suntec management gave it for free as part of public service?

 

A friend from R&T told me they charged dirt cheap legal fees, and R&T were really hoping the billable hours will be small.

[Elfenstar]

Hi, I sympathise that you accidentally closed a tab just prior to replying. I had a similar incident when, I suspect, there was a blip on the internet connection when I hit reply....

 

Obviously, in Singapore context, nudity is generally being viewed as unacceptable. Case in mind, the couple who paraded themselves nude in Holland Village recently. I personally find it unacceptable behavior.

 

Decadence in Japan, Thailand being the transgenders capital of the world, dodgy massage parlours, KTVs, and prostitution, most adults would know that they assist. However, are such activities viewed as being "neutral" or are such activities conducted in a hush hush manner? Are you seriously suggesting that if my child wishes to visit dodgy massage parlours, KTVs, and prostitution, because he or she has an urge, I should view it as being a "neutral" activity? I do apologize, but in my case, the answer is no.

 

With regards to ancient china emperors and his numerous concubines, are you suggesting that polygamy should be viewed as being "neutral" in Singapore today?

 

I do not mean to come across as being condescending, but I do not understand your point on being a vocal minority or majority, either conservative or liberal. Perhaps you can elaborate further.

 

I use the words right and wrong broadly (simply because I am lazy. Right and wrong has lesser letters compared to acceptable/unacceptable). If I choose to dig my nose behind close doors, who am I offending and who am I demonstrating to that I lack class?

 

Unfortunately I do not subscribe to the latest hypothesis of any nature. There will always be conflicting views at any point of time. I am not a smart person by any degree and get confused easily with the latest and fashionable school of thought. Therefore, I rely on my observations and exchanges with people like yourself to draw my own conclusion.

 

It is interesting to note that you have stressed that there is nothing scientifically wrong with homosexuality. I assume that scientifically and medically has the same meaning and weighted equally in this context. It does strike my curiosity that the 3 conditions that you have stated with regards to bestiality, you have not mentioned the possibility of transmigration of diseases between different species and is therefore, unacceptable / wrong.

 

We are from a different school of thought, where you insist to have any given issue to be scientifically proven before it is accepted. I do not subscribe to that view. Therefore, in my personal opinion, homosexuality is unacceptable even though there is no scientific proof to offer in order to explain that it is unacceptable.

 

As I have mentioned, I am lazy by nature. I would think that you would be able to draw on the conclusion that if drug addicts are a strain on society, therefore, it is wrong to abuse drugs. You are seriously asking me to justify my statement that drug addicts are a strain on society? Drug addicts steal, lie and commits all kinds of heinous acts to get their next high (there will be exceptions where a drug addict comes from a well to do family that does not have to resort to such acts). The distress that they put the people that loves and cares for them upon discovering that an individual is addicted to drugs. The resources (resources that can be put to better use, for example, to advocate equality between the genders, which is one of the missions that AWARE is trying to accomplish) that has to go into trying to reform the drug addicts to kick the habit.

 

I believe that I stated and / or counseling and medical help. It was not counseling AND medical help. I am not an expert in such matters. I was merly offering my humble suggestion. I simply do not know if going the medical route (perhaps psychiatry but again I reiterate I am not an expert on such matters) would help. I am not from COOS. In fact, I have not even heard or am aware of their existence till the AWARE debacle. I do not know them enough to draw any concrete conclusions to their teachings at this stage, but from the little information that I have till now, I definitely do not subscribe to their views and teachings. Will I take the effort to find out more, highly unlikely. I have far better things to do with my time.

 

When you mention that Josie and gang are most likely closet homosexuals themselves if research is right, I thought that you meant Josie and gang and that research was done on them specifically. I did not think that you meant research done in general. I stand corrected. I have no views on the report that you have provided at this stage, simply because I have not done enough research to draw any conclusions.

 

I quote "AWARE fights for rights, and renders some aid to women who's rights have been violated. ". So some aid is provided, however minute. What was AWARE advocating when lesbianism is mentioned on text documents? Do you need to bring up lesbianism to further woman's rights, seek equality amongst the genders etc etc? The question I put forth is that is it an absolute must to mention lesbianism in order to accomplish what AWARE seek to do?

 

A personal question to you. Do you hold nothing sacred? What events must transpire before alarm bells start ringing and you say "woah, hang on, this is not right"? I have a very low threshold whilst others might have a higher threshold. IAre your threshold infinite?

 

Kind regards

PS - I have thoroughly enjoyed this exchange, despite the deferring views. It gives me an insight on how someone else thinks.

 

Too tired to continue this tonight. Will respond either tomorrow or Friday (since I'm on leave). You have a good night!

 

[Felipe]

For an adult maybe not. But for a kid in secondary school, it's a possible yes. I still remember during sec sch, me and a few friends were caught with porn mag that one of us was enthusiastically showing the rest. It was enlightening to say the least If we had seen gay porn then, who knows if some of us will try it out .... Don't over estimate the maturity of impressionable youths. And don't underestimate their (as we were once) propensity to do stupid things too!

 

 

yep, maybe i shouldn't use gay porn as an analogy. but Aware's document is at most theory based. i don't think it consists of pictures from what i know.

[Jamesc]

Paying out of her own pocket or not, that's of the ex-NG to decide among themselves. But they indeed were not in line with the AWARE's constitution according to reports.

 

You mean I can register a non profit org with the Comm of Charities, spend S$90,000

 

above the rules of the constitution of S$20,000 and its up to me?

 

And the gov cannot investigate and charge me for it?

 

Really up to the ex-NG and nothing the members or the courts can do about it?

 

[Elfenstar]

You are right it is subjective. My qualm is with folks making outrageous claims without substantiating it.

And my intention is never to convert anyone, and not to talk about religion in this thread. But when there are religious attacks, it calls for a reply. So there's no need for a new thread on my side.

 

If you see a need from your side, then convince mr elfenstar or the other guy to start one for you since u can't.

 

Me start a thread just to damn my own faith??? Not a chance. I actually have scientifically sound arguments on the other side too (which is what I normally use)... just that you haven't mentioned them Will have to save everything for another time. I'm way too tired to think. Light bantering would be awesome, so I shall look for a brainless thread to make stupid comments in

 

[Silver_blade]

Err....did I say the members cannot take the ex-NG to court? I simply said that whether the money is to be paid out of Josie's own pocket or not...is to be decided among the ex-NG members.

 

Surely the members can bring the ex-NG to court for the violation of AWARE's constitution.

Edited May 6, 2009 by Silver_blade

[Falc]

yep, maybe i shouldn't use gay porn as an analogy. but Aware's document is at most theory based. i don't think it consists of pictures from what i know.

 

There should be pictures right, else how to illustrate? Not just the anal/gay part but in general. But i'm juz guessing.

 

Thinking back, i think as youths, new things and "cool" things have great appeal. And it isn't difficult for something to suddenly become "cool" as we all can recall. All it takes is just someone with a reputation who has done it to flaunt it. If students see a cool looking instructor saying gay/anal is normal, it is not far stretching to imagine some students will take it as cool enough to try out.

[Falc]

Me start a thread just to damn my own faith??? Not a chance. I actually have scientifically sound arguments on the other side too (which is what I normally use)... just that you haven't mentioned them Will have to save everything for another time. I'm way too tired to think. Light bantering would be awesome, so I shall look for a brainless thread to make stupid comments in

 

Juz an advice to Mr yipsy lah since you guys seem to have a common agenda mah.

If not then lah dao lor.