Felt so cheated by Borneo Motor

[Xtrocious]

Is quite straight forward - you have 50 cars to sell. Collect 75 orders. Look at all and then see which are the 50 most profitable.

 

If only doing for one round it works.

 

If want to longer term though it doesn't work - because the time, effort, paperwork, bad publicity etc from the 25 unfilfilled orders costs you much more than the "extra" profit you make.

 

The other strategy you can use is to create "artificial" demand. Take 1000 orders, then start telling everybody that the car is selling out, so I have to increase the price, COE is going up so I have to increase the price etc etc. but you actually only have intention of delivering 300 of the cars - so the costs are much lower, COE drops below expected level, can get freight at lower level (as not paying premium for urgent) etc etc. But this sort of strategy is also playing with fire....

 

BTW though, you must give Qudos to the govt - they have created a system that allows them to take the maximum number of most profitable customers each bidding round, with no negative fallout, not that negative fallout really matters to a body like LTA anyway.

 

It may work but that's provided that they differentiate the pricing sufficiently enough or have a whole range of pricing...

 

But in this case, the cars are sold at 2 fixed prices - one with COE guaranteed, the other without...

 

Plus in this case, those buyers claimed that the SEs have trying them not to opt for the guaranteed package...

 

Hmmm...I think you meant kudos - but yes, they obviously deserve credit for thinking up of all the money sucking schemes possible in the name of "good governance"...

 

 

[Andrewlai]

Hi Darryn,

 

I see your point...I understand....however allow me to make another point:

 

You say that Borneo has made a genuine mistake. I have seen no evidence that they think they have made a mistake.

They have issued no public statements. I am not even sure if the MD knows about the FIASCO.

 

I believe that many of the hundreds of customers that have been affected have simply quietly accepted this and moved on.

As I keep saying if there are no consequences for Borneo, if there is no fire things will only get worse. Once dealers realize they can get away with this kind of cherry picking of orders things will get worse....

 

Andrew

[Andrewlai]

Given the many customers that have been affected I am QUITE CERTAIN Borneo knew they couldn't fulfill all orders.

One suggestion I can make is to get authorised dealers to publish the percentage of orders they fulfill.

[Cerano]

Andrew,

 

It's actually really simple...and you need to be asking yourself.

 

At the time you bought, what was the quantumn between guaranteed and non guaranteed? At only $1k it tells me that BM were not expecting any volatility in the market right? After all, if they were taking a "big gamble" on the COE, wouldn't they account for this in the "guaranteed" pricing? Wouldn't you?

 

Look at the situation now - what is the quantumn between guaranteed and non guaranteed at most dealers? $3k - $5k right? Doesn't this higher price for the quarantee reflect the level of uncertainty they feel?

 

Looking back to when you booked, they felt pretty confident of themselves if they were pricing the "risk premium" at only $1k yes?

 

And I say again, no (sane) business person, that is established, and wishes to remain established, enters into any deal with the intention of cheating in any way shape or form.

 

no sane businessman would do nothing to find a proper middle solution for a customer

[Cerano]

Hi Darryn,

 

I see your point...I understand....however allow me to make another point:

 

You say that Borneo has made a genuine mistake. I have seen no evidence that they think they have made a mistake.

They have issued no public statements. I am not even sure if the MD knows about the FIASCO.

 

I believe that many of the hundreds of customers that have been affected have simply quietly accepted this and moved on.

As I keep saying if there are no consequences for Borneo, if there is no fire things will only get worse. Once dealers realize they can get away with this kind of cherry picking of orders things will get worse....

 

Andrew

 

that is right. WHETHER OR NOT THE CUSTOMER HAD A FAULT.

 

the dealer is still at blame. BM possibly the largest AD in SG dunno COE going up? Kena surprised? Then they hire degree holders for what

[Jman888]

Hi Darryn,

 

I see your point...I understand....however allow me to make another point:

 

You say that Borneo has made a genuine mistake. I have seen no evidence that they think they have made a mistake.

They have issued no public statements. I am not even sure if the MD knows about the FIASCO.

 

I believe that many of the hundreds of customers that have been affected have simply quietly accepted this and moved on.

As I keep saying if there are no consequences for Borneo, if there is no fire things will only get worse. Once dealers realize they can get away with this kind of cherry picking of orders things will get worse....

 

Andrew

 

it is not even a mistake to be honest, BM is not the only AD bidding and they don't OWN the system by getting 100% of the quota allocated.

 

What i see in these two rounds and more to come could be part of the booming property market, if customers of other made willing to bid for higher price, BM has to respond to fulfill their customers order. Then they were respond to the situation and not a genuine mistake.

 

Why would the MD care about the fiasco?? it is a market movement which they can control, if they could then i will seriously question them as i am not a Toyota customer.

[Ttbest]

When I want to buy a car, i want to buy a car.. who cares about the attitude of SE..

 

if one is not good, i go to another one..

 

main thing is i like the car, and I don't face the SE everyday..

 

I suppose you will not buy a QQ or proton just because they roll out red carpet for you, right?

 

Guess u love to go restaurant, pay good money but serve your own food from the kitchen counter while the waiters charge you 10% service charge and look at you eat.

It is mainly such nonchalant attitude that consumers in Singapore carry that results in such lousy service.

If they expect to earn my commission, the least they have to do is to maintain a professional disposition in the whole process of the sale. Car is but a mode of transport (which might be a point of contentious for some), the reliability is important but no less the service provided by the sales person.

 

Edited April 7, 2010 by Ttbest

[Darryn]

Hi Darryn,

 

I see your point...I understand....however allow me to make another point:

 

You say that Borneo has made a genuine mistake. I have seen no evidence that they think they have made a mistake.

They have issued no public statements. I am not even sure if the MD knows about the FIASCO.

 

I believe that many of the hundreds of customers that have been affected have simply quietly accepted this and moved on.

As I keep saying if there are no consequences for Borneo, if there is no fire things will only get worse. Once dealers realize they can get away with this kind of cherry picking of orders things will get worse....

 

Andrew

 

Well its surprising that this is still dragging on, but it does go to part of the reason why we haven't heard anything from BM..

1. If you are going to keep accusing BM of this sort of behaviour, which is not only unthical but at the very least bordering on illegal, I think it is time you provided more evidence than "they are a market player - they must have known"

2. Given attitudes like yours, its not particularly suprising that BM haven't said anything - its not that you want an "explanation" its that you want to apportion blame. The instant that BM says anything even approaching "sorry" there's going to be a tonne of people jumping all over them saying "why are you sorry if you have done nothing wrong?" This MUST be your fault, you just admitted it - now compensate us!!!!

3. Would you make any such comment?

 

Look, there was a screw-up, exactly who is to blame is probably never to be known, there are a lot of parties who could have done better - but does it really matter? The contract is "non guaranteed", they could not get a COE. end of story.

 

Contract does not say "well non guaranteed, but we promise to bid to a level that keeps our customer happy right?"

 

And is there anything to indicate that in anyway the SE deliberately mislead you? Or that the contract is not clear?

 

At the end of the day - it doesn't really matter exactly what happen, according to the contract it was clearly stated the policy, and Borneo adhered to the policy. They have a history of success, which should count for something in this discussion, its not like this is a common occurance they do every round.

[Sony]

sigh.. this is such a long and tedious thread.. can we start to +1 and close the chapter? :P

[Fedup-camry]

sigh.. this is such a long and tedious thread.. can we start to +1 and close the chapter? :P

 

still got people felt cheated, and old scores not settled yet, so will drag on ... like the red shirt in bkk

[Spurman]

Hi Darryn,

 

I see your point...I understand....however allow me to make another point:

 

You say that Borneo has made a genuine mistake. I have seen no evidence that they think they have made a mistake.

They have issued no public statements. I am not even sure if the MD knows about the FIASCO.

 

I believe that many of the hundreds of customers that have been affected have simply quietly accepted this and moved on.

As I keep saying if there are no consequences for Borneo, if there is no fire things will only get worse. Once dealers realize they can get away with this kind of cherry picking of orders things will get worse....

 

Andrew

 

End of the day, what causes this fiasco??? The system or Borneo Motors???

My cousin who got his WISH from a PI last year, took him 3 bids, even though he damn, contract signed was GUARANTEED COE.....if so, how the hell he need 3 bids to get his... Wan2 sue, can, wait lor, wait till cows learn how to fly lor....

Hes lucky though, managed to get his ride, after a 2k top up and price for COE difference was like 4k.....Anyway he help the PI, the PI help him....

 

Doing business it not doing charity leh, U think BM is new creation or THE ROCK or some church group... No, its a business, it needs money to feed. Losing a few potential customers wont even hurt their reputation at all... Time heals... REALLY does.....

 

For those who have not ventured out on your own or dabbled in business, U wont feel what BM is feeling right now.... Its a pain decision to make to lose out some customers who probably will never choose Toyota or buy from BM in future, but to lose even more $$$ per car, hmm, how much can they lose...

 

FYI, I anit a toyota or BM supporter...

[Jamjammer]

still got people felt cheated, and old scores not settled yet, so will drag on ... like the red shirt in bkk

 

I like your red shirt analogy. I learn that buying car MUST get guaranteed COE!!! If already decided to buy car, it's better to factor in the "assurance" cost of confirmed COE. Man... this thread is really ON and ON and ON.... contract no confirmed COE, period - end of story. Cow come home liao.

 

Please dont believe all the bull s--t of SE, get this in black and white. In current times, there are so many uncertainties. Lehman can collapse, Bear Sterns gone, so COE suddenly cheong is nothing... more to come so sit tight and try to hedge your risk - in this case, want to buy car better get confirmed COE package. This small money only forms a small percentage of the overall car cost - might as well pay and be asssured to get car. In spore, every damn things is going up, hiaz...

 

BM is a coy that looks after themselves lah. If they acede to a complaint and give a car at current COE - lose big time. If they open floodgate by being customer-oriented, lose lots of money man!! Not only that, customers in the past who didnt get car from "COE issue" will also now banged table. In the end, a small floodgate will result in big big hole and the entire dam would collpase!!

 

Sorry for adding to this thread, I'm NOT a supporter of Toyota, car is just a car lah... exp in Spore man!!!

Edited April 7, 2010 by Jamjammer

[Spurman]

Well its surprising that this is still dragging on, but it does go to part of the reason why we haven't heard anything from BM..

1. If you are going to keep accusing BM of this sort of behaviour, which is not only unthical but at the very least bordering on illegal, I think it is time you provided more evidence than "they are a market player - they must have known"

2. Given attitudes like yours, its not particularly suprising that BM haven't said anything - its not that you want an "explanation" its that you want to apportion blame. The instant that BM says anything even approaching "sorry" there's going to be a tonne of people jumping all over them saying "why are you sorry if you have done nothing wrong?" This MUST be your fault, you just admitted it - now compensate us!!!!

3. Would you make any such comment?

 

Look, there was a screw-up, exactly who is to blame is probably never to be known, there are a lot of parties who could have done better - but does it really matter? The contract is "non guaranteed", they could not get a COE. end of story.

 

Contract does not say "well non guaranteed, but we promise to bid to a level that keeps our customer happy right?"

 

And is there anything to indicate that in anyway the SE deliberately mislead you? Or that the contract is not clear?

 

At the end of the day - it doesn't really matter exactly what happen, according to the contract it was clearly stated the policy, and Borneo adhered to the policy. They have a history of success, which should count for something in this discussion, its not like this is a common occurance they do every round.

 

This is for those who are familiar with the electrical industry...

 

Who would have thought copper prices will be 7000USD/tonne today??? And who would have thought that copper prices will suddenly rise from USD 1600 to USD 8000 in matters of months.... WHat does that translate, a coil of cable which cost say $20/coil becomes $80/coil suddenly....

 

And history have shown that copper have always maintained its value say USD 1500 to USD 1800 avg for last 10-20yrs....And overnight rise so much..

Both electrical contractors and cable manufacturers all look at the past history of pricing to comfortably price their cables to the contractors... So when material prices suddenly rises, does the contractors blame the manufacturer for not telling him in advance that prices will increase suddenly??

 

 

[Fedup-camry]

This is for those who are familiar with the electrical industry...

 

Who would have thought copper prices will be 7000USD/tonne today??? And who would have thought that copper prices will suddenly rise from USD 1600 to USD 8000 in matters of months.... WHat does that translate, a coil of cable which cost say $20/coil becomes $80/coil suddenly....

 

And history have shown that copper have always maintained its value say USD 1500 to USD 1800 avg for last 10-20yrs....And overnight rise so much..

Both electrical contractors and cable manufacturers all look at the past history of pricing to comfortably price their cables to the contractors... So when material prices suddenly rises, does the contractors blame the manufacturer for not telling him in advance that prices will increase suddenly??

 

 

u are right

 

the copper traders also can lose money big time when they read the market wrongly. remember the sumitomo case ? wow, that was before nick leeson case

 

when we contract for cables, we have some other mean to protect our margin in case the copper price is out of range

[Spurman]

u are right

 

the copper traders also can lose money big time when they read the market wrongly. remember the sumitomo case ? wow, that was before nick leeson case

 

when we contract for cables, we have some other mean to protect our margin in case the copper price is out of range

 

Normally in the 90s, early 2000s, cable manufacturers quotation validity was like 30 days??? Today its like 1 day?? 7 hrs... Its like a stock market...

[Fedup-camry]

Normally in the 90s, early 2000s, cable manufacturers quotation validity was like 30 days??? Today its like 1 day?? 7 hrs... Its like a stock market...

 

 

 

..... and watching LME all the time ....

[Jamjammer]

Normally in the 90s, early 2000s, cable manufacturers quotation validity was like 30 days??? Today its like 1 day?? 7 hrs... Its like a stock market...

 

Bro, now nothing is certain. So beware, what used to be called stable, will not be anymore. This BM COE fiasco is exactly one of the example. "BM always can secured COE" - such saying is dangerous, so know where is the risk and if need be, hedge it!! If cant hedge, then have to think of a way, else price runs up, suffer man!!!

[Maldini03]

End of the day, what causes this fiasco??? The system or Borneo Motors???

My cousin who got his WISH from a PI last year, took him 3 bids, even though he damn, contract signed was GUARANTEED COE.....if so, how the hell he need 3 bids to get his... Wan2 sue, can, wait lor, wait till cows learn how to fly lor....

Hes lucky though, managed to get his ride, after a 2k top up and price for COE difference was like 4k.....Anyway he help the PI, the PI help him....

 

Doing business it not doing charity leh, U think BM is new creation or THE ROCK or some church group... No, its a business, it needs money to feed. Losing a few potential customers wont even hurt their reputation at all... Time heals... REALLY does.....

 

For those who have not ventured out on your own or dabbled in business, U wont feel what BM is feeling right now.... Its a pain decision to make to lose out some customers who probably will never choose Toyota or buy from BM in future, but to lose even more $$$ per car, hmm, how much can they lose...

 

FYI, I anit a toyota or BM supporter...

 

Precisely. If I am a business man. I rather lost you this cm then lost $$. If sometime later you attracted bymy promo and buy from me is the best!! rather than I loss $$ and you maynot buy from me in future.

 

In fact I dun believe in customer oriented lah. Which offer the best benefit, the cm will sway to which side. 99% standard deviation @ 99% volatility.