How Long Before COE fall to $20k

[Check13]

singapore lang, really all complain king....

 

current high COE px, complain

govt that time flood mkt with COE, COE cheap cheap but cars many many, also complain

later i tell u when they up ERP sky high, we will complain again

 

so basically no matter what, we'll just complain one lah.

 

So instead of complaining, just let those who wanna pay this kind of COE to go ahead la. Happy buy, not happy suck thumb dun buy. I know i know, people willing to pay, can afford but some of us can't afford so we buay song. But face it, this is life and nobody owes you a living except the govt when it comes to basic stuff. And car is definately not a basic need in this small red dot.

 

The world is not perfect and we can't always get what we want. Pls wake up lor....

Edited December 19, 2010 by Check13

[Nightkids]

singapore lang, really all complain king....

 

current high COE px, complain

govt that time flood mkt with COE, COE cheap cheap but cars many many, also complain

later i tell u when they up ERP sky high, we will complain again

 

so basically no matter what, we'll just complain one lah.

 

So instead of complaining, just let those who wanna pay this kind of COE to go ahead la. Happy buy, not happy suck thumb dun buy. I know i know, people willing to pay, can afford but some of us can't afford so we buay song. But face it, this is life and nobody owes you a living except the govt when it comes to basic stuff. And car is definately not a basic need in this small red dot.

 

The world is not perfect and we can't always get what we want. Pls wake up lor....

 

True, very true........ this is LIFE.....especially in this LITTLE RED DOT aka pe sai by the Taiwanese......

[Curahee]

whatever govt do, there will be ppl unhappy/complain, ppl happy...

 

For instance like u mention COE cheap cheap, normal income ppl/poor happy with the govt as their dream come true, can afford a car, at last got status in life, rich ppl complain as these ppl will flood the road and disturb the smooth traffic they enjoy all the while....

 

What follow is road jam up due to many ppl join in the car buying frenzy, govt up ERP price/gentries in hope to solve the jam, rich ppl happy as some roads will be smoother for them to travel but poor complain as they need to pay to travel certain routes....

 

Now govt up COE ex ex to prevent any tom dick harry from purchasing a car, rich ppl si bei happy as less ppl can afford a car to jam up the road, poor ppl complain as they no longer can afford a car anymore, need to continue / go back to their BMW lifestyle....

Edited December 19, 2010 by Curahee

[1fast1]

Bro in your own reply post #153 (http://www.mycarforum.com/index.php?showtopic=2658072&view=findpost&p=3510567) you were comparing London tube with Singapore SMRT so let me know if you still want me to quote word by word on how well you know SMRT and the public buses. Its not about the operating hours of the SMRT train that makes what you say an irony but it really shows your lack of depth in our public transport to be able to make such remarks.

 

OK, let's take what I said:

 

The only advantage we have in our MRT system over the UK tube is the fact that we run 24/7 (mostly) without fail. The UK system has frequent disruptions on PH and weekends.

 

And I was wrong. The SG SMRT *does not* run anything close to 24/7, and my impression was wrong. But if anything, it strengthens the point I was making (and weakens yours) - our system is *even worse* than I initially reckoned. So what's your point? I admitted my mistaken impression, but it doesn't detract from my point. If you keep bringing this up, you're flogging a straw man, and that makes for a poor argument.

 

Btw AMK Autopoint is in an industrial park area and AMK being one of the most densely populated area I dont need to be an infrastructure engineer to even imagine how tough it is to get a direct station setup near it. It has however 3 NE stations (Buangkok, Hougang & Kovan) and I am sure a little bit of research on the bus routing can get you a quick 10mins bus ride to it.

 

My point was that it should not be necessary to get a bus ride after a train ride to get to a place like AMK autopoint. It should be walkable (within 15 minutes) from an MRT station. A simple analysis of needs would easily show that people who need to go to AMK Autopoint (which is one of the main automotive workshop centres on the island) are a) normally drivers, and b) would likely not be driving their own cars in at least one direction to and from that place since, you know, the cars need to be in the *workshops*! If I can figure this out, then someone being paid million-dollar peanuts should've been able to.

 

Please don't start on the public bus network - that's even more problematic than the SMRT. Again, a disclaimer - I rarely take the bus, but even so, I've had my bad experiences. One time, I was trying to get to the Stadium, the bus frequency was *nothing* like it was supposed to be, and I couldn't get on the first bus that came, since it was filled with people like sardines. I had to hike over to another stop to try my luck. This should never happen in a "world class" public transport system, should it? And the Stadium is far less ulu than AMK Autopoint, right?

 

Also have it ever occur to you that precisely that we are a small island and everything takes up space that is why its very hard to actually cover every location with a train station? I never been to London so I cannot compare with it but just a thought.

 

Err...no. If anything, the opposite should be true. And, in any case, if we're so "land-strapped", why do we have something like 22 golf-courses here? Oh, that's right, the MIW love the game (in contradistinction to something like 2% of the "normal" sporting population of Sg that play the game). Or is that just a conspiracy theory? Regardless, the last time I checked, it takes far less space (on average) to build an MRT station than it does to build a golf course.

 

Lets face it we tend to research more into foreign countries since we are foreigners there. But in our own backyard we will take things for granted and the moment we cannot see an easy direct way to it we will just proclaim it as crap.

 

If what you're saying is that the grass tends to be greener on the other side, I agree with you. But let's not brush aside the fact that Sg has *many* issues that can be sorted out better, and a bunch of people in charge who will almost never admit a mistake. And the first step to solving a problem is to admit there's one in the first place.

Edited December 19, 2010 by Turboflat4

[Topgun]

Once the average $60-70k COE sets in, give it one year, say 2012 onwards.

Everyone will accept the high COE as norm, and will start to replace their 3-5 years old car.

This week is just a knee jerk reaction, where everyone promised to drive their car for 10years.

 

Just look at the super high HDB and private, everyone also say very expensive, etc. But then hor once stability sets in, people will accept the norm and continue buying high priced property.

 

We know, S'poreans if not anything else, is COE resilient.

 

 

[Silver_blade]

Turboflat4,

I agree with with you on our 'world-class' public transport system which is far from 'world class' where transport system network is concerned. Some may think that is it unfair to compare ours to that of London's, which 1st underground system is over 100yrs (about the time s'pore was founded by Raffles). But just have a look at Hong Kong which is similar in size (but with added challenges cos it is mountainous and area separated by the sea). Their system (eg. MTR, buses, taxi, etc) is very comprehensive and in the CBD and shopping district, one could get to most major buildings from a MTR station without having to be exposed to any weather element...cos most are linked by underground passage way.

 

But to be fair, our MRT system is very young and given time, I believe it be much better than now and should be more comparable to those in Hong Kong, etc. But before we reach that standard, maybe we should stop our 'self-praising' and calling it world-class all the time. In fact, I feel some of our taxi driver's standard is on the decline in recent years (but I shall just stop here for now).

 

So I feel it is 'unfair' to start any kind of island wide road pricing until there is a good enough alternative of getting to places eg. public transport.

Edited December 19, 2010 by Silver_blade

[Vinceyeo]

And I was wrong. The SG SMRT *does not* run anything close to 24/7, and my impression was wrong. But if anything, it strengthens the point I was making (and weakens yours) - our system is *even worse* than I initially reckoned. So what's your point? I admitted my mistaken impression, but it doesn't detract from my point. If you keep bringing this up, you're flogging a straw man, and that makes for a poor argument.

 

Bro I was not even referring to this point and I dont agree it does not make our "world class" transportation weaker just because it does not operate 24/7. Its a waste of resources to even run it 24/7 and very simple reasons why SMRT dont do it. If you fail to even see this point and think that makes a world class transportation then you are worst than I given you credit thus far.

 

I'm sure you already know that there are many places in tiny SG which are out of reach of the MRT network, and the bus service lets the whole team down.

 

I was actually referring to this point where you the self-proclaimed expert of SG public transport network and bus services have already admitted you hardly take the trains and buses. What a joke.

 

Oh and before we even continue further on our discussion regarding this topic please remember while comparing UK (or just London as you prefer) and SG you did not even factor in the much higher tax implications behind why London has such an extensive system as compared to us. Also Silver_blade mentioned in post #222 how long ago UK started as compared to us and I agree that we should stop calling ourselves "world class". Actually come to think of it I never told people our public transport is fantastic. I would leave it as convenient and easy to use.

 

My point was that it should not be necessary to get a bus ride after a train ride to get to a place like AMK autopoint. It should be walkable (within 15 minutes) from an MRT station. A simple analysis of needs would easily show that people who need to go to AMK Autopoint (which is one of the main automotive workshop centres on the island) are a) normally drivers, and b) would likely not be driving their own cars in at least one direction to and from that place since, you know, the cars need to be in the *workshops*! If I can figure this out, then someone being paid million-dollar peanuts should've been able to.

 

Whao bro you are really fair sia... One moment you are comparing how easy (see below quote in case you cannot remember your own comments again) in London where some places not reachable by tube you can take a bus or short train and the next moment you are expecting SG to be reachable everywhere only by the main train routes and walking distance?? Come on be reasonable AMK Autopoint is hardly the place where the mass public folks would go to. I for 1 have barely gone to Autopoint more than 5 times till date and quite frankly I would have asked any of my driving friends to pick me up if I am expecting to leave my car in Autopoint. Its just poor planning on your part if you ask me.

 

Almost anywhere in London worth going to is a short hike from a tube station; if it isn't there's always a short bus or train (the "normal" sort of train) ride to take you there.

 

Alright moving on...

 

Please don't start on the public bus network - that's even more problematic than the SMRT. Again, a disclaimer - I rarely take the bus, but even so, I've had my bad experiences. One time, I was trying to get to the Stadium, the bus frequency was *nothing* like it was supposed to be, and I couldn't get on the first bus that came, since it was filled with people like sardines. I had to hike over to another stop to try my luck. This should never happen in a "world class" public transport system, should it? And the Stadium is far less ulu than AMK Autopoint, right?

 

May I ask when did you go to the national stadium? I am assuming National Stadium as there are many stadiums around actually. This sounds like one of those days where you go for a big event or music concert at National Stadium and surely there are tons of people there all trying to get on the buses at the same time. So you are telling me this kind of situation does not happen in London? Whao their folks must be able to magically pack into the tubes and buses there without any problems at all! That is world class indeed!

 

Err...no. If anything, the opposite should be true. And, in any case, if we're so "land-strapped", why do we have something like 22 golf-courses here? Oh, that's right, the MIW love the game (in contradistinction to something like 2% of the "normal" sporting population of Sg that play the game). Or is that just a conspiracy theory? Regardless, the last time I checked, it takes far less space (on average) to build an MRT station than it does to build a golf course.

 

Bro you really need to think hard before commenting "the opposite should be true". Ok let me give you a simple example. Just imagine a small cake (SG) and a bigger cake (UK) for landsize and 1 cherry as 1 building. So in order to have 10 cherries on their cakes, SG will need to have them closer together as compared to UK right? So that would limit the available space left for roads, sewage, electrical systems and underground subway areas to build in SG as compared to UK? Access to all of them would be much easier in UK so how can you say the opposite is true?? Obviously you dont play Simcity at all.

 

I dont even know why you want to raise golf courses as a reason for taking up land space. Which country wants to be without any recreation (golf amongst other sports) facilities. I will just take it that you are ranting for the sake of it. And no I dont play golf either.

 

If what you're saying is that the grass tends to be greener on the other side, I agree with you. But let's not brush aside the fact that Sg has *many* issues that can be sorted out better, and a bunch of people in charge who will almost never admit a mistake. And the first step to solving a problem is to admit there's one in the first place.

 

Yes we have many issues and so does other countries. I agree but they are hardly showstoppers really. As a guy who just turned 34, I only started driving 3-4 yrs ago so I think I have experienced enough of our public transport as an adult (~9 years) to say our public transport is not world class but its more than adequate for our daily commuting. It definitely can be improved like everything else but its not as bad as you think.

 

In fact I enjoy taking our trains and buses once in a while especially when I need to go to town area and know it will be a crowded weekend. So much easier and less stressful.

[1fast1]

(The board software doesn't accept too many quote blocks, so your posts in blue. Mine in red.)

 

Bro I was not even referring to this point and I dont agree it does not make our "world class" transportation weaker just because it does not operate 24/7. Its a waste of resources to even run it 24/7 and very simple reasons why SMRT dont do it. If you fail to even see this point and think that makes a world class transportation then you are worst than I given you credit thus far.

 

Bro, I've been trying to give you respect till now, and not play a personal game. But if you keep wanting to make this personal (about *me* rather than the topic), then I can jolly well get nasty too. You're an easy target - your grammar is atrocious for one thing. "Worst than"?! And your logic doesn't fare much better.

 

I'd rather this discussion not degenerate to that, so please stick to discussing *my views* rather than keeping on calling me "worst", "sad", etc.

 

I *never* asked for our system to be run 24/7. When I thought that was what was happening, I considered it an advantage over other networks. But I never stated that I considered that to be a pre-requisite for a "world-class" system. You clearly have real issues understanding what others are saying.

 

I was actually referring to this point where you the self-proclaimed expert of SG public transport network and bus services have already admitted you hardly take the trains and buses. What a joke.

 

Once again, SHOW ME where *I* claimed I was an "expert" on the public transport network here. Stop putting words in my mouth and trying to bolster your teetering case with strawman arguments.

 

This complaint about the lack of penetration of our train network and the inefficiency of our bus services has been reiterated by MANY people. MOST of whom use the service on a daily basis. In the few times I've utilised these services, my personal experiences have CORROBORATED these complaints.

 

These complaints about long (and inconsistent) wait times and overcrowding in buses have even made it into the media. You can find them yourself if you're so inclined. If you want to play dumb, shut your eyes and stop up your ears and proclaim you've seen and heard no evil, I'm not helping you out. Others on this forum can relate to what I'm talking about.

 

Oh and before we even continue further on our discussion regarding this topic please remember while comparing UK (or just London as you prefer) and SG you did not even factor in the much higher tax implications behind why London has such an extensive system as compared to us.

 

Really? Are you referring solely to *income* tax? Be specific now. Don't talk as if their higher taxes are going SOLELY to provide for a better public transport network. You do realise that they also have free health care (NHS), and real social support? And if you're only considering income tax, don't forget that the UK govt. loses out big time on the plum returns from the atrocious vehicular and road taxes our govt. imposes. Have you taken this into account? Or are you just intent on cherry-picking about the income tax alone?

 

Also Silver_blade mentioned in post #222 how long ago UK started as compared to us and I agree that we should stop calling ourselves "world class". Actually come to think of it I never told people our public transport is fantastic. I would leave it as convenient and easy to use.

 

I wonder why you're getting so defensive about our public transport network. Do you have a vested interest here? Are you perhaps employed by one of the entities running the network here? Or are you just a loyal servant to the larger masters (heavy euphemism intended). Oh, perish the thought.

 

There are many others, with more experience than me with the network here, who've voiced their dissatisfaction with the system. Even in this thread, in the post you've clearly read, Silver_blade compared us to HK (a very fair comparison) and found us lacking in some areas. Your opinion is hardly universal.

 

And I never stated you said our PT is fantastic. Just like I never said it's atrocious. I did state there's a lot of room for improvement and our wonderfully highly-paid leaders are not doing as much as they should be. In my opinion (and this opinion is shared by many).

 

Whao bro you are really fair sia... One moment you are comparing how easy (see below quote in case you cannot remember your own comments again) in London where some places not reachable by tube you can take a bus or short train and the next moment you are expecting SG to be reachable everywhere only by the main train routes and walking distance?? Come on be reasonable AMK Autopoint is hardly the place where the mass public folks would go to. I for 1 have barely gone to Autopoint more than 5 times till date and quite frankly I would have asked any of my driving friends to pick me up if I am expecting to leave my car in Autopoint. Its just poor planning on your part if you ask me.

 

Umm...perhaps I don't want to be a parasitic leech on others? Someone else from my family can fetch me to and fro since we have multiple cars and qualified drivers, but I certainly wouldn't want to impose on them (or my friends) to do something like this. And because of my dissatisfaction with public transport, I end up taking the cab to and fro, most of the time (one time my mechanic fetched me from the MRT, but that's because he's a great guy providing great service to a long-standing customer. I wouldn't come to depend on that sort of treatment).

 

 

Alright moving on...

 

Are you, really? Because you seem to have been harping on the same point for your last two posts. I've already admitted I was unfamiliar with the operating hours of the SMRT, and I take PT infrequently, and you wanted to make a grand deal of it, putting words in my mouth (like calling me a "self-proclaimed expert", etc.), and then implying that it invalidates anything else that I stated about my opinion of the inefficiency of the system.

 

Do you even know what it means to move on?

 

May I ask when did you go to the national stadium? I am assuming National Stadium as there are many stadiums around actually. This sounds like one of those days where you go for a big event or music concert at National Stadium and surely there are tons of people there all trying to get on the buses at the same time. So you are telling me this kind of situation does not happen in London? Whao their folks must be able to magically pack into the tubes and buses there without any problems at all! That is world class indeed!

 

It wasn't such a big event - there was some Mitsubishi stunt-driving show going on, and I was interested because I was in the market for an Evo X at the time. The attendance was not extraordinary. There might've been some other event going on that I didn't care about, of course. But this doesn't change the fact that these events are all planned well in advance. They can jolly well anticipate a surge in demand, right? Can't they increase the frequency of service (or at the very minumum, actually come as frequently as they claim to)?

 

And the reason I don't have a major problem with niggling issues with the London network is because they never went around thumping their chest and proclaiming "world-class this, world-class that". Unlike our P@ppies.

 

Bro you really need to think hard before commenting "the opposite should be true". Ok let me give you a simple example. Just imagine a small cake (SG) and a bigger cake (UK) for landsize and 1 cherry as 1 building. So in order to have 10 cherries on their cakes, SG will need to have them closer together as compared to UK right? So that would limit the available space left for roads, sewage, electrical systems and underground subway areas to build in SG as compared to UK? Access to all of them would be much easier in UK so how can you say the opposite is true?? Obviously you dont play Simcity at all.

 

You're joking, right? Comparing cherries on a cake to MRT stations/buildings is probably the most ridiculous analogy I've seen. A single cherry occupies a far greater percentage of the surface of a cake than an MRT station compared to the SG landmass. At least if you'd stated "specks of chocolate rice" or "those delicious little chopped-nut bits" on a cake, your analogy might be a bit closer to reality (not a lot closer, mind you). I'm being facetious, of course, in case you're irony-challenged. Oh yeah, and Simcity certainly makes you an expert in urban planning. Or at least cake decorating. That was irony too, lest you miss it.

 

Short rebuttal - there is absolutely no comparison here. There's plenty of room left to build more stations and expand the capabilities of existing ones. And this has been the case for a long time, which begs the question - why the heck has so little been done for so long?

 

I dont even know why you want to raise golf courses as a reason for taking up land space. Which country wants to be without any recreation (golf amongst other sports) facilities. I will just take it that you are ranting for the sake of it. And no I dont play golf either.

 

So every point you can't rebut is a "rant"? Convenient. The golf-example (which *is* on-point, as opposed to your juvenile cherries-on-a-cake analogy) is to show you how that the gahmen wants to have their cake and eat it too. On the one hand, they blame many things (rising transportation and housing costs, etc.) on land-scarcity, but then they devote many hectares of land to golf-courses. And your point about "Which country wants to be without any recreation..." is completely specious, since only 2% of our population plays the game. That hardly justifies taking up such huge tracts of land, now, does it? Unless some very important people are being unfairly represented in that 2%.

 

BTW, those figures were taken from this article reposted here: http://politics.sgforums.com/forums/3545/t...s/395873?page=1 The 2% figure comes from the SSC itself.

 

Yes we have many issues and so does other countries. I agree but they are hardly showstoppers really. As a guy who just turned 34, I only started driving 3-4 yrs ago so I think I have experienced enough of our public transport as an adult (~9 years) to say our public transport is not world class but its more than adequate for our daily commuting. It definitely can be improved like everything else but its not as bad as you think.

 

I don't think it's terrible, but I think there's massive room for improvement.

 

In fact I enjoy taking our trains and buses once in a while especially when I need to go to town area and know it will be a crowded weekend. So much easier and less stressful.

 

 

Sure, but that hardly proves anything. It's simply the lesser of two evils when you compare it to ridiculously congested roads on a weekend in town. It doesn't prove that the PT is so good that you can use it as a mainstay for daily living (weekdays and weekends) without major complaints. Which is what most people are thinking about when they talk about replacing cars with PT.

Edited December 20, 2010 by Turboflat4

[NightWind]

Interesting....today Cat B COE hit above SGD70k and even at this level the polls show over 38% of voters (the majority) still expect COE to fall to $20k in 2-5 years.

 

I wonder if the stats will change if and when COE hits..75k, 80k, 90k etc....