Electric cars

[Beregond]

On 2/15/2024 at 9:45 PM, Voodooman said:

On the record, Toyota is still investing in hydrogen but it is spending a lot more money to build an EV platform and EV plants, trying to catch up with BYD and Tesla.

Hydrogen cars can't work, at least not for next 10 years, unless there is a breakthrough in new technology. This is a good educational video for those who believe in the hydrogen hype but most then people just want to believe in that they want to believe in.

 

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2023/07/eus-law-mandates-fast-charging-stations-every-60-kilometers-along-highways-2025/

EU pass this law to install chargers last year Dec.

Despite all the 'promising' hydrogen engine research.  I haven't read any news about any countries that is going to switch or plan to switch to hydrogen.  Or install hydrogen refill station etc etc.( other then china) . 

Global sales of hydrogen powered vehicles fall by 11% in the first 4 months of 2023.

I dun know what are the data for the whole year.

But interesting China is experiencing a high increase in hydrogen vehicle  

They got plan to build 1000 over hydrogen fuel station by 2025 .

At the same time the Japanese Market for hydrogen cars collapse. They sold 235 in the first 7mths of 2023😂😂

US also saw an increase.  But the figure is noway near China figure. 

And all those numbers are just like 1-2 % compare to EV figures. 

The way I see even if hydrogen cars become a big thing. China will be leading.

😂😂

 

[Lala81]

On 2/16/2024 at 11:46 AM, Beregond said:

 

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2023/07/eus-law-mandates-fast-charging-stations-every-60-kilometers-along-highways-2025/

EU pass this law to install chargers last year Dec.

Despite all the 'promising' hydrogen engine research.  I haven't read any news about any countries that is going to switch or plan to switch to hydrogen.  Or install hydrogen refill station etc etc.( other then china) . 

Global sales of hydrogen powered vehicles fall by 11% in the first 4 months of 2023.

I dun know what are the data for the whole year.

But interesting China is experiencing a high increase in hydrogen vehicle  

They got plan to build 1000 over hydrogen fuel station by 2025 .

At the same time the Japanese Market for hydrogen cars collapse. They sold 235 in the first 7mths of 2023😂😂

US also saw an increase.  But the figure is noway near China figure. 

And all those numbers are just like 1-2 % compare to EV figures. 

The way I see even if hydrogen cars become a big thing. China will be leading.

😂😂

 

hydrogen i believe is for heavy vehicles. 

Some south korean hauler trucks are hydrogen. 

The market for hydrogen would probably be for Ships and heavy vehicles. 

BEV mian qiang still can be passenger bus. To haul heavy heavy stuff, not feasible yet despite what Elon promises for the Tesla Semi. 

The Tesla Semi launch so many years ago, not even operational yet. 

 

 

[Lala81]

On 2/16/2024 at 9:07 AM, inlinesix said:

 

lol Toyota has long maintained that this is not going to be the case until battery tech improves and rare earth issue is addressed.
They won't sacrifice current and near term profitability for the above. 

Dunno who is right. But the germans are not earning much on BEVs. maybe the chinese can given their lower labour and that the batteries are made in china.

[Lala81]

On 2/15/2024 at 9:45 PM, Voodooman said:

On the record, Toyota is still investing in hydrogen but it is spending a lot more money to build an EV platform and EV plants, trying to catch up with BYD and Tesla.

Hydrogen cars can't work, at least not for next 10 years, unless there is a breakthrough in new technology. This is a good educational video for those who believe in the hydrogen hype but most then people just want to believe in that they want to believe in.

main problem for hydrogen is that >97% of all hydrogen is produced by fossil fuels. 

[Beregond]

On 2/16/2024 at 12:05 PM, Lala81 said:

lol Toyota has long maintained that this is not going to be the case until battery tech improves and rare earth issue is addressed.
They won't sacrifice current and near term profitability for the above. 

Dunno who is right. But the germans are not earning much on BEVs. maybe the chinese can given their lower labour and that the batteries are made in china.

If rare earth issue is their concern,  they should stop making hybrid also😂

Or their hybrid battery dun use rare earth? Or their hybrid battery is greener then EV battery?

😂

[Vratenza]

On 2/16/2024 at 12:44 PM, Beregond said:

If rare earth issue is their concern,  they should stop making hybrid also😂

Or their hybrid battery dun use rare earth? Or their hybrid battery is greener then EV battery?

😂

hybrid battery pack is smaller.

but who say Toyota cares about the earth? or even Tesla ? It is just politically correct on world stage and  It is just a convenient excuse to get ah gong grants and greenwashing.😁

Edited February 16, 2024 by Vratenza

[Lala81]

On 2/16/2024 at 12:44 PM, Beregond said:

If rare earth issue is their concern,  they should stop making hybrid also😂

Or their hybrid battery dun use rare earth? Or their hybrid battery is greener then EV battery?

😂

The battery pack is tiny in their usual hybrid systems. Even a PHEV battery pack is a lot smaller compared to the BEVs. 

Their promotional material says that the amount of raw materials required (batteries/motors) in 1 BEV can build 30 hybrid cars. Dunno how true.

Anyway, they are convinced of their course lor. They will build EVs in the end. But most of their lineup will be regular hybrids over the next 5 years. 

[Lala81]

On 2/16/2024 at 12:49 PM, Vratenza said:

hybrid battery pack is smaller.

but who say Toyota cares about the earth? or even Tesla ? It is just politically correct on world stage and  It is just a convenient excuse to get ah gong grants and greenwashing.😁

a lot smaller. 

I think most toyota hybrid only has <2kwh battery pack. Some of them even <1kwh, from what i read.

[Lala81]

I'm no tree hugger. But 1000km with 1 tank top up is more than enough for me. I did that in Victoria with the camry 2.5L hybrid. 

the Honda eHEV system is also somewhat close to the Toyota numbers. 

[Lala81]

On 2/16/2024 at 12:49 PM, Vratenza said:

hybrid battery pack is smaller.

but who say Toyota cares about the earth? or even Tesla ? It is just politically correct on world stage and  It is just a convenient excuse to get ah gong grants and greenwashing.😁

my cousin works for an oil major in SG. Recently talked to him at CNY.
He say there are some plans for them to kiv divest Jurong Island facilities if the carbon tax goes through. No point taking the margin hit. 

Real world considerations. 

Edited February 16, 2024 by Lala81

[Lethalstrike]

At the end of the day, Toyota says they don't believe in EVs is because of vested interests in hybrid tech and hydrogen tech which they already dumped billions into. They also don't have the cost structure which is low enough to make an EV to be priced against BYD and the likes. 

If today, Toyota can make an EV at a very low cost to themselves and can fight against the Chinese for price parity, Akio Toyoda will tell you EVs are the future 🤣

Toyota already have a lot of patents on solid state battery tech, in which the Chinese had little. Believe it or not. It may well be Toyota's long-term strategy to block the Chinese on intellectual property rights, in case the Chinese mass produced the game changing solid state battery tech first. 

[Kklee]

On 2/16/2024 at 1:11 PM, Lala81 said:

a lot smaller. 

I think most toyota hybrid only has <2kwh battery pack. Some of them even <1kwh, from what i read.

IMHO.
Corolla Cross Hybrid, the lithium battery is roughly 0.9 kWh
It won't charged to 100% nor discharge to 0%.   The available kWh will be about 0.45 kWh. 🤣

 

 

[Lala81]

On 2/16/2024 at 1:17 PM, Lethalstrike said:

At the end of the day, Toyota says they don't believe in EVs is because of vested interests in hybrid tech and hydrogen tech which they already dumped billions into. They also don't have the cost structure which is low enough to make an EV to be priced against BYD and the likes. 

If today, Toyota can make an EV at a very low cost to themselves and can fight against the Chinese for price parity, Akio Toyoda will tell you EVs are the future 🤣

Toyota already have a lot of patents on solid state battery tech, in which the Chinese had little. Believe it or not. It may well be Toyota's long-term strategy to block the Chinese on intellectual property rights, in case the Chinese mass produced the game changing solid state battery tech first. 

China's IP is not international IP haha. 

 

[Lala81]

toyoda is often quoted as saying that toyota's view is that BEV total market share can only be 30% of the world's car market in the foreseeable future. 

Actually if u follow US automotive news, due to cost of living issues, u realise that every car reviewer is praising toyota hybrids as 1 of the more economical option for new cars. 

Cheaper than EV (significantly for them). 40mpg. 

For the more established models by toyota (Rav 4, camry etc), >50% sales are hybrids. 

 

 

[Lethalstrike]

On 2/16/2024 at 2:04 PM, Lala81 said:

China's IP is not international IP haha. 

I think Toyota will only start to get serious on EV once they perfected solid state battery manufacturing, which will be much lighter, cheaper and will bring about a substantial increase in range over current liquid electrolyte batteries. 

https://www.just-auto.com/news/signal-toyota-dominates-solid-state-battery-patents/?cf-view

The Chinese will have to get serious on IP if they are still keen to export their EVs for sales outside of China though. 

Edited February 16, 2024 by Lethalstrike

[Lethalstrike]

On 2/16/2024 at 2:14 PM, Lala81 said:

toyoda is often quoted as saying that toyota's view is that BEV total market share can only be 30% of the world's car market in the foreseeable future. 

Actually if u follow US automotive news, due to cost of living issues, u realise that every car reviewer is praising toyota hybrids as 1 of the more economical option for new cars. 

Cheaper than EV (significantly for them). 40mpg. 

For the more established models by toyota (Rav 4, camry etc), >50% sales are hybrids. 

Also makes more sense as the US recently encountered a very cold spell, which reduces the range of EVs severely. Not so with hybrids! 

[Voodooman]

On 2/16/2024 at 11:46 AM, Beregond said:

 

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2023/07/eus-law-mandates-fast-charging-stations-every-60-kilometers-along-highways-2025/

EU pass this law to install chargers last year Dec.

Despite all the 'promising' hydrogen engine research.  I haven't read any news about any countries that is going to switch or plan to switch to hydrogen.  Or install hydrogen refill station etc etc.( other then china) . 

Global sales of hydrogen powered vehicles fall by 11% in the first 4 months of 2023.

I dun know what are the data for the whole year.

But interesting China is experiencing a high increase in hydrogen vehicle  

They got plan to build 1000 over hydrogen fuel station by 2025 .

At the same time the Japanese Market for hydrogen cars collapse. They sold 235 in the first 7mths of 2023😂😂

US also saw an increase.  But the figure is noway near China figure. 

And all those numbers are just like 1-2 % compare to EV figures. 

The way I see even if hydrogen cars become a big thing. China will be leading.

😂😂

 

Yup. Hydrogen has been around for a long long time.  NASA used it in space.  Few seems to be aware that hydrogen is an energy carrier and not an energy source on its own, like fossil fuel.   As a carrier with loss ratio of up to 60% when used in cars, it can't be commercialized. 

The Chinese economy is so big and state directed, China could built a hydrogen network and make it work for trucking / air traffic perhaps.  

All this hydrogen hype pushed by the fossil fuel industry. All driven by self interest but there will be fools who believe in it and are buying hydrogen related stocks. 

Edited February 16, 2024 by Voodooman

[Voodooman]

On 2/16/2024 at 3:07 PM, Lethalstrike said:

I think Toyota will only start to get serious on EV once they perfected solid state battery manufacturing, which will be much lighter, cheaper and will bring about a substantial increase in range over current liquid electrolyte batteries. 

https://www.just-auto.com/news/signal-toyota-dominates-solid-state-battery-patents/?cf-view

The Chinese will have to get serious on IP if they are still keen to export their EVs for sales outside of China though. 

Chinese industrial policy at work.

https://www.carscoops.com/2024/02/china-forms-solid-state-battery-consortium-with-catl-byd-nio-calb-and-others/