CEVS ....

[Wind30]

 

 

The above point is important to grasp.  To illustrate if the ARF is 20k (before CEVS consideration), the vehicle owner will get a refund (PARF) of 10k at the end of 10 years.  If there is a CEVS “rebate” of 5k, the ARF becomes 15k.  Where does this 5k discount come from?  Yes, your PARF will be 5k instead of 10k.  Do you still think the government is losing money because of this “rebate”?  Would you even call it a rebate?  (Go search the meaning of rebate if you insist).

 

 

 

Ok, I read all the online documents on this and I think you got this wrong.

 

If the ARF is 20k and you got CEVS of 5k, your parf at the end of 10 years should be 50% of the ARF paid which is 7.5k instead of 10k. So the actual rebate is closer to $2.5k unless you intend to drive the car for longer than 10 years. 

 

errr... can someone confirm this? Reo's way of calculation makes no sense as the rebate is inconsistent, ie you can get a case if the CEVS is 15k with ARF 20k... you end up with -5k Parf?????

 

 

Edited January 7, 2017 by Wind30

[Theoldjaffa]

I disagree on just one count, they should stop calling CEVS a rebate. Worse is they got their mouth piece ST to drum up all this while saying the government is "losing money" because of the rebate.

 

If you read below I'm quite sure if you're objective youâll conclude it's never a rebate, period.

 

For the rest, I hope I can help you understand all this BS about CEVS rebate.

 

In order to bring up the purchase price of cars (supply, demand & price), many years back it was cooked up that buyers (of new car) should pay additional tax (ARF). In line with keeping cars on the road on average to be in tip-top condition, the 10 years validity was also conceived. The additional tax that was paid upfront will be refunded if the vehicle is de-registered by the end of 10 years. As a side effect, the government also has additional money to go spend for 10 years (or invest if you prefer).

 

Then came the idea to go green. Protecting our environment is good but the implementation is just too damned stupid. Recall the Tesla saga, NCG and now diesel. Anyways, with the go green thingy came CEVS. The important point to note is while CEVS ârebateâ seems like an upfront reduction, what effectively happens is the amount of reduction is actually taken from the PARF that youâll eventually get refunded when you de-register the vehicle within 10 years. Itâs like youâre withdrawing your PARF refund at the beginning rather than later. Assumption here is time value of money is not considered and the first buyer keeps the vehicle until itâs deregistered.

 

The above point is important to grasp. To illustrate if the ARF is 20k (before CEVS consideration), the vehicle owner will get a refund (PARF) of 10k at the end of 10 years. If there is a CEVS ârebateâ of 5k, the ARF becomes 15k. Where does this 5k discount come from? Yes, your PARF will be 5k instead of 10k. Do you still think the government is losing money because of this ârebateâ? Would you even call it a rebate? (Go search the meaning of rebate if you insist).

 

On the flip side, if there is a CEVS surcharge of 5k, using the same example above, the ARF will be 25k but the PARF remains the same at 10k.

 

Way back, Iâve written to ST to correct them not to call this CEVS concession a rebate and not to portray the government is losing money. Of course they did not publish. Not surprising considering ST is a PAP-dog.

 

I can go on but Iâll stop here by saying:

 

1. If youâre buying a vehicle with CEVS ârebateâ, you should expect an upfront purchase price reduction accordingly (there is other components like dealerâs margin, COE, .. to complicate slightly).

2. If youâre buying a used vehicle which was given a CEVS ârebateâ, the PARF is reduced and be mindful how the asking price is priced in.

With so much confusion made by the government and their mouth piece, and that not many people really understand all this CEVS BS, the ones losing out are really the buyers (both new and used) who donât understand how CEVS works.

 

 

Just saw your post. I've just posted how CEVS works - check it out.

If the ARF is 20k, by right the 20k is paid in full to the govt.

 

The rule is you get back 50% of ARF paid after 10 years. If you paid 20k ARF, you get 10k back.

 

The CEVS rebate is a rebate given to offset the ARF. If there's a 10k rebate, the ARF paid to the govt is 10k.

 

Based on the rule where you get back 50% of whatever ARF paid in the beginning, you get 5k.

 

It makes sense. It is a rebate because less tax is paid upfront. It's a rebate for taxes paid to the govt.

 

The issue is this rebate should be given to consumers in the form of price reduction of the selling price, because inversely the consumer pays upfront any surcharges in the selling price.

 

CEVS rebate = rebate in ARF. The govt gets paid less but consumer doesn't pay less.

 

CEVS surcharge = govt gets paid more in taxes but it's not added on to ARF.

 

So it's technically a rebate (on ARF), like it or not.

[Wind30]

If the ARF is 20k, by right the 20k is paid in full to the govt.

 

The rule is you get back 50% of ARF paid after 10 years. If you paid 20k ARF, you get 10k back.

 

The CEVS rebate is a rebate given to offset the ARF. If there's a 10k rebate, the ARF paid to the govt is 10k.

 

Based on the rule where you get back 50% of whatever ARF paid in the beginning, you get 5k.

 

It makes sense. It is a rebate because less tax is paid upfront. It's a rebate for taxes paid to the govt.

 

The issue is this rebate should be given to consumers in the form of price reduction of the selling price, because inversely the consumer pays upfront any surcharges in the selling price.

 

CEVS rebate = rebate in ARF. The govt gets paid less but consumer doesn't pay less.

 

CEVS surcharge = govt gets paid more in taxes but it's not added on to ARF.

 

So it's technically a rebate (on ARF), like it or not.

 

ya it is a rebate and the implementation make sense. The longer you use the car, the more "real" rebate you get. If you use less than 5 years, you are really getting only 25% of the CEVS. 

[Theoldjaffa]

ya it is a rebate and the implementation make sense. The longer you use the car, the more "real" rebate you get. If you use less than 5 years, you are really getting only 25% of the CEVS.

No, the rebate or the ARF paid is a sunk cost liao.

 

It does not affect your selling price. That's dictated by the market.

 

So once paid its paid liao. No need to im chim about how much you lugi or tan dio based on how long u drive

[Wind30]

No, the rebate or the ARF paid is a sunk cost liao.

 

It does not affect your selling price. That's dictated by the market.

 

So once paid its paid liao. No need to im chim about how much you lugi or tan dio based on how long u drive

 

??? how can the Parf not affect your selling cost 10 years later? This is a factually wrong statement if I intend to scrap the car after 10 years. The rebate on Arf DIRECTLY affect my selling price 10 years later

Edited January 7, 2017 by Wind30

[Theoldjaffa]

??? how can the Parf not affect your selling cost 10 years later? This is a factually wrong statement if I intend to scrap the car after 10 years. The rebate on Arf DIRECTLY affect my selling cost 10 years later

I'm referring to your point of using for less than 5 years, how much real % of rebate.

 

If I buy now at 100k based on 53k COE, and I sell my car in 5 years based on 50% as a rough guide, I get 50k.

 

and if COE shoots up after 5 years to 90k, resulting in a new car price of 140k, based on market pricing I may be able to sell my car at 70k based on a similar rough guide. When new car price rises, used car rises too although not in tandem.

 

This happens no matter what CEVS rebate or surcharge. That's what I mean.

 

Of course if I use the full 10 years, it does affect due to PARF.

Edited January 7, 2017 by Theoldjaffa

[Reo]

What you quoted me saying was before CEVS considration, it's 10k PARF.  I'm aware PARF is usually 50% of ARF but with CEVS, it's different.

CEVS "rebate" is early withdrawal of PARF.

 

I'm open to clarification.

 

 

Ok, I read all the online documents on this and I think you got this wrong.

 

If the ARF is 20k and you got CEVS of 5k, your parf at the end of 10 years should be 50% of the ARF paid which is 7.5k instead of 10k. So the actual rebate is closer to $2.5k unless you intend to drive the car for longer than 10 years. 

 

errr... can someone confirm this? Reo's way of calculation makes no sense as the rebate is inconsistent, ie you can get a case if the CEVS is 15k with ARF 20k... you end up with -5k Parf?????

 

[Theoldjaffa]

What you quoted me saying was before CEVS considration, it's 10k PARF. I'm aware PARF is usually 50% of ARF but with CEVS, it's different.

CEVS "rebate" is early withdrawal of PARF.

 

I'm open to clarification.

No.

 

How do you take back something which you didn't pay for in the first place?

[Reo]

The rule is you get back 50% of ARF paid after 10 years. If you paid 20k ARF, you get 10k back.

 

The CEVS rebate is a rebate given to offset the ARF. If there's a 10k rebate, the ARF paid to the govt is 10k.

 

 

 

From your 2 statements above, what happens to your ARF and PARF if your vehicle attracts say a 10k surcharge ?

 

No.

 

How do you take back something which you didn't pay for in the first place?

 

Huh, can you be more specific what you didn't pay for in the first place ?

 

Before CEVS consideration (mean before we factor in CEVS), you pay an ARF, and you get back later a portion of it when you de-reg.  No?

Edited January 7, 2017 by Reo

[flashbang]

The joke about CEVS is, when the car has a rebate, you get lesser PARF. When the car has a surcharge, it doesn't get added to your PARF value.

[Wind30]

What you quoted me saying was before CEVS considration, it's 10k PARF.  I'm aware PARF is usually 50% of ARF but with CEVS, it's different.

CEVS "rebate" is early withdrawal of PARF.

 

I'm open to clarification.

 

Alamak this is very simple.

 

OMV=20k

CEVS=5k

 

so what is PARF after 10 years? I say $7.5k, you say $5k. Who is right?

 

Unless my english fail me, I think it is $7.5k. 

[Reo]

The joke about CEVS is, when the car has a rebate, you get lesser PARF. When the car has a surcharge, it doesn't get added to your PARF value.

 

That's the other point I didn't mention earlier.  They are not losing money at all.  On the other hand, they're pocketing more money from CEVS surcharge so we can perhaps buy more Terrex.

[Theoldjaffa]

From your 2 statements above, what happens to your ARF and PARF if your vehicle attracts say a 10k surcharge ?

 

 

Huh, can you be more specific what you didn't pay for in the first place ?

 

Before CEVS consideration (mean before we factor in CEVS), you pay an ARF, and you get back later a portion of it when you de-reg.  No?

A surcharge means u pay that surcharge. if it's 10k it gets paid 10k to the govt. it does not add on to your ARF, and so a surcharge has no impact on your PARF.

 

when i say how to take back something you didn't pay for in the first place, it's referring to your statement "CEVS "rebate" is early withdrawal of PARF."

 

Assuming ARF is 20k

without CEVS rebate = PARF of 10k

with CEVS rebate of 10k = PARF of 5k

 

you pay more in the first place, you get back more in PARF.

you pay less in the first place due to CEVS rebate, you get back less in what you paid for originally.

 

why do you say CEVS rebate is early withdrawal of PARF? you don't take back any of the 10k which you didn't pay for in the first place.

Edited January 7, 2017 by Theoldjaffa

[Reo]

There's no point to discuss further if you've not done some digging on the LTA website to clarify your doubt earlier.  What do you think happens to OMV, ARF, PARF if it's not CEVS neutral?  What if there's a CEVS surcharge ?  Go check it out.

 

I'm here to help you understand.  If you refuse to want to understand, I've done my part.

 

By the way, if the vehicle is before 2013, what I said earlier may not apply.

 

 

 

Alamak this is very simple.

 

OMV=20k

CEVS=5k

 

so what is PARF after 10 years? I say $7.5k, you say $5k. Who is right?

 

Unless my english fail me, I think it is $7.5k. 

 

[Reo]

A surcharge means u pay that surcharge. if it's 10k it gets paid 10k to the govt. it does not add on to your ARF, and so a surcharge has no impact on your PARF.

 

when i say how to take back something you didn't pay for in the first place, it's referring to your statement "CEVS "rebate" is early withdrawal of PARF."

 

Assuming ARF is 20k

without CEVS rebate = PARF of 10k

with CEVS rebate of 10k = PARF of 5k

 

you pay more in the first place, you get back more in PARF.

you pay less in the first place due to CEVS rebate, you get back less in what you paid for originally.

 

why do you say CEVS rebate is early withdrawal of PARF? you don't take back any of the 10k which you didn't pay for in the first place.

 

Say ARF is 20k before CEVS.  If CEVS surcharge is 10k, your ARF is now 30k.

But your PARF remains 50% of the "original" ARF which is still 10k in this case.

 

I thought I said in the top part clearly that ARF (at least a portion of 50% or whatever) is upfront payment to be refunded as PARF after de-reg.

 

So what you didn't pay upfront again?  

 

I said it's a early withdrawal because that's the way it is.  I'm open to clarification with facts and not something one refused to accept the reality.

 

Of course, above referring to after 2013

[Wind30]

There's no point to discuss further if you've not done some digging on the LTA website to clarify your doubt earlier.  What do you think happens to OMV, ARF, PARF if it's not CEVS neutral?  What if there's a CEVS surcharge ?  Go check it out.

 

I'm here to help you understand.  If you refuse to want to understand, I've done my part.

 

By the way, if the vehicle is before 2013, what I said earlier may not apply.

 

I got read lah. That is why I say you are wrong. The Parf is $7.5k for the case I mentioned (OMV $20k, CEVS $5k). you really did get $2.5k rebate after 10 years. 

[Theoldjaffa]

Say ARF is 20k before CEVS.  If CEVS surcharge is 10k, your ARF is now 30k.

 

this sentence sums up your misguided thoughts.

 

you think you are here to help us understand; in truth you are confusing us.

 

it's not that we refuse to understand, its that we refuse to accept fallacies.

 

This is from LTA:

From 1 Jan 2013, subject to a minimum ARF payable of $5000, cars with low carbon emissions will qualify for rebates, which are offset against the ARF payable.

 

From 1 Jul 2013, cars with high carbon emissions will incur a corresponding registration surcharge. The CEVS surcharge will not be eligible for Preferential Additional Registration Fee (PARF) benefit, if any.

 

Based on the scenario you mentioned, ARF is still 20k, not 30k. It's a surcharge on its own, period. It's not added on to ARF. So even with 10k surcharge, your ARF is 20k, not 30k. Therefore, PARF remains 50% of 20k = 10k. can? 

 

Source: https://www.onemotoring.com.sg/content/onemotoring/en/lta_information_guidelines/buy_a_new_vehicle/car_cost/_jcr_content/main_par/download/file.res/Car_Cost_Update.pdf

 

See footnote 5 in the last page (page 10)

[therock]

Say ARF is 20k before CEVS.  If CEVS surcharge is 10k, your ARF is now 30k.

But your PARF remains 50% of the "original" ARF which is still 10k in this case.

 

I thought I said in the top part clearly that ARF (at least a portion of 50% or whatever) is upfront payment to be refunded as PARF after de-reg.

 

So what you didn't pay upfront again?  

 

I said it's a early withdrawal because that's the way it is.  I'm open to clarification with facts and not something one refused to accept the reality.

 

Of course, above referring to after 2013

 

Bro.. do have a look at the website on CEVS by LTA..

I really think you have your facts the other round..

I think you have confused yourself and you will get a rude shock when you scrap your car, so please check it out first ya?