Engine Oil Brands that are not Certified by API , yet print API standard * CONFUSED*

[Slowmo]

[Mustank]

realli one

 

come nearer the date i can let you know if you want to see

 

i use the cooking oil bec easier to pass inspection

[Elfenstar]

I can't think of any non-certified oil in recent times actually saying that they are API certified. Most would say meets of exceeds the standard.

[Elfenstar]

That is the whole purpose of a governing body that ensures that the oil manufactured meets a certain spec

 

So what's makes you think that when the oil is NOT certified but has the words printed API/ACEA meets the specs

 

One can pour 'Knife' brnad into any bottle and print API / ACEA aqnd sell it. Get the drift

 

 

There is nothing wrong with stating that the standard is met as long as its not a false claim. On the other hand stating that they are certified is a whole different issue if they're not. If you look at most car manuals, even they use "meet API" standards and don't require an API certified oil.

Edited November 16, 2007 by Elfenstar

[Slowmo]

bro, if you are serious, maybe can pm me why and how you do it?

 

i believe it can be quite enlightening.

[Elfenstar]

actually the number of steve jobs and bill gates are pretty big. Thats why my degree is a waste of $$$

 

USD$125000 to USD$300000 per product, per formulation, per viscosity for petrol oils (CI, CH, etc formulas cost a min of USD$275000), add in royalty fees (per gallon) they need to pay and we're talking multi-million dollar costs even for most companies.

 

The rest of it is a you get what you pay for issue. If you want to spend $10 on an oil from a company of no known reputation then chances are you'll be in trouble. On the other hand, between an API certified mobil 1 and its cheaper non-certified amsoil (for e.g.) counterpart, I would get the amsoil simply because its better at what its supposed to do.

[Gim_ong]

Well, our good friend here, posted a Pic on Ultra Man Engine Oil,.....

 

 

That one, is a classic example of MISLEADING.

 

Just DUN print anything that have any conjunction with API standard. IF you print anything about API on the packaging, technically you are into perception management. You are try to give consumer the impression that it is "certified" by the professional Body ( American Petroleum Insititue) AKA API.

 

Respect Amsoil and Redline for their business Ethics, When they are not certified.... They dun have any printing of API.

 

Simple,... if people buy Amsoil or Redline means that People Trust the brand.

 

JUST do not MISLEAD consumer that is the bottom line.

 

Cheers

Gimmy

Edited November 16, 2007 by Gim_ong

[Abba]

If the company didn't even bother sending the oil for certification. so what makes U think the oil meets the spec?

 

Are these oils cheaper? NO, in fact they cost as much if not more. I get 4L of reputable oil for $60 (API certified), these 'mickey mouse' brands place some advertisement, put some posters and put their logo on WS banner, then charge more than what I pay. Savings, NONE

 

There are many Roberts around that fall prey to these sorts of marketing and believe they are buying good pdts just because they say it in the magazine a few times. Do you even know the source of the oil in the bottle? the blending & formulation of the oil ? what viscosity stabiliser, detergents, additives mixtures is used?

 

Try going to HR and tell them; "I do not have a Degree but I received the same education as the chappie sitting next to me, see this picture. I attended all the lectures but just didn't pass the exam. I should get the job". Same thing, 1 person got certified, the other didn't

 

For crying out loud, the oil is NOT certified means the oil is NOT certified. How you look at it, it wrong to put the mark if it did NOT pass.

[Abba]

OWS http://www.ows-germany.com/profile.html

Up till today, we still manufacture all our products in Germany because we believe in quality and quality that we can control and maintain.

OWS lubricants are manufacturer approved and meets the requirements of ACEA and API

But couldn't find it listed in API licensee directory.

 

I wonder what sort of Business practice this is that states they are approved but NOT on the approved list

 

Are they really manufactured in Germany

[Gim_ong]

VROOM felt the energy that has just pass me...

 

Your words have a lot of 气.

 

A lot of energy ...

 

cheers

Gimmy

[Elfenstar]

Thats why i mentioned earlier that the only true test is getting VOA and UOA of the oils.

 

There are a few oils that far exceed the API tests yet of no certification yet on the other hand there are many inferior oils that meet API specs. In fact none of the top oils are API certified. By the way, the ultraman oil does not say its API certified, that is not the mark. It just claims that it meets those API standards.

 

Anyway your analogy proves my point simply because it does not show the persons capabilities (i.e. he may not get hired because of his lack of qualifications, but it doesnt mean he wouldn't have done better if he got the job). In fact 8 out of the 10 world richest people do not have degrees

 

FYI these are the API certification marks

[Elfenstar]

Redline, Motuls top oils, amsoils top oils, schaeffers etc are all NOT API certified, and they cannot claim so because they DO NOT meet API specs. If they did so that would be misleading.

 

As i mentioned earlier, its about buying based on fact, not ad's nor anything else. And it should be fairly obvious from the API certification marks that i posted in my last reply to Abba, that the ultraman oil made no such claims that they are API certified. There is a big difference between saying that a product is certified and saying that a product meets certification standards.

[Elfenstar]

Manufacturer approved is different from API certified. They are referring to manufacturer ratings such as those by mercedez benz, VW, ford, etc. Stating that it meets ACEA and API standards does not mean its certified by them either.

[Gim_ong]

According to what you have just say,

 

"There is a big difference between saying that a product is certified and saying that a product meets certification standards."

 

I am not saying that Ultraman Engine Oil Claims that they are API Certified.

 

so let is say that Ultraman Engine Oil meets API certification standard WITHOUT being TRULY API certified. Do you mean this is OK to PRINT anything in-conjunction with API?

 

How to justify that Ultraman Engine OIL truly have API standard?!?

 

Layman would most probably think that " THIS OIL has passed API standard testing"

This is the MISLEADing ELEMENT.

 

Why dun you tell LTA, it is your Car has passed the VICOM inspection Standard without the relevant documentation? ( for your yearly vehicle inspection)

 

VICOM have to produce a document of Certification to explain WHY your vehicle has passed the LTA Standard.

 

Are you advocating that MISLEADING consumer is ethical?

Why dun you try to MISLEAD LTA?

Do you thing that LTA will required you to product the relevant documentation before allowing you to purchase your road tax for the year?

 

Cheers

Gimmy

[Elfenstar]

You're confusing regulatory requirements with voluntary standards testing. Two different things. A car that meets LTA standards but does not have certification cannot have its road tax renewed, BUT it still meets the standards none-the-less.

 

If you had really read through the API site properly, you would have realised that they state that as long as the uncertified oil can meet their standards, and do not claim certification or licensing, there is nothing wrong.

 

How can stating a product has met a certain standard be misleading unless it doesn't actually meet the standard? How can it be misleading about certification if nothing is stated that they are certified or licensed? If anyone gets mislead, its because of their assumptions rather than the fault of packaging. Pardon the language but there was this quote that i learnt at the start of my investigation training, and it was "assumption is the mother of all f**k-ups".

 

How to check? For the third time in this thread, get an oil analysis done, and compare the results with the API tests (which you can download off their site).

Edited November 16, 2007 by Elfenstar

[Kb27]

Thank you for bringing up the issue of API certification.

But I think we are arguing over semantics here.

 

I do not know what API SL or SM consists of. But I believe the spec is freely available to all oil makers or blenders. Any oil maker who is confident that they meet or exceed the published specs can advertised that.

 

It is up to end consumers to determine if it is trustworthy and buy it.

 

I'm not aware of any watchdog or authorities at this time to fine or sue any company making wrongful claims. If you are influential or powerful enough, you can probably start that.

 

There are just too many claims in this world.

 

Then they are products which apparently works to some, but are snakeoil to others. Still these companies thrived and refused to die. Fools are born every minute to buy these products. These are even worst than oil certification and is looked at by US FTC. Unless an authority like FTC wants to look into it, this has just been an interesting debate.

 

Cheers.

[Elfenstar]

Well said. Just 2 points to correct you on. The API specs are available to anyone who can download the pdf off their site, and the API does check and has taken lawsuits up.

 

The best way to describe API certification is a guarantee of standards rather than trusting that the company has met the standards.

[Gim_ong]

According to what you have said,

 

You are right that, you car may have the Standard for LTA without the documentation. However you cannot PROVE the standard none the less witout official Documentation from VICOM.

 

What I am addressing here is the PROVING element, be it is a Requirement by LAW or not.

 

 

"If you had really read through the API site properly, you would have realised that they state that as long as the uncertified oil can meet their standards, and do not claim certification or licensing, there is nothing wrong. "

 

That is what AMSOIL and Redline is doing..... SAY NOTHING, PRINT Nothing in regards to API. Be like them then..... They are great Engine Oil brand with GREAT integrity in this context.

 

Just dun print any SNEAKY things such as eg " MET API SM or SL standard". or API SM etc.

 

Majority the "layman" consumers would not even know about the API website and certification etc. But this does not mean that they are willing to be a "ROBERT". It is because they have no knowledge in this.

Taking advantage of "ROBERT" has never been ethicial.

 

If I sell you gold, and I did PROVE the Gold is REAL. Will you buy from me?

 

 

To check a certain Oil have met the API standard

 

"How to check? For the third time in this thread, get an oil analysis done, and compare the results with the API tests (which you can download off their site)."

 

If I am not wrong, you need to have a before and after sample.

Well damage is done, once Engine Oil with "questionable standard" is poured into the Engine.

The cost of an Brand new Engine is around $20K depending on MODEL and make.

Anyone of the End user here wants to volunteer their Engine..?

 

To be Safe , buy from Big 4 or some companies that you trust.

"The best way to describe API certification is a guarantee of standards rather than trusting that the company has met the standards"

 

In my own opinion, have a gurantee of standards rather than having doubtful thoughts, the gambling stake here is $20K (brand new engine)

 

 

Cheers

Gimmy

Edited November 17, 2007 by Gim_ong