macrosszero Turbocharged March 23, 2013 Share March 23, 2013 As you say, they could offer to clean windows. Shell is quite particular about how their fuel hoses are hung onto the hanger. Not so sure about the rest. Also area-cleaning, or mopping up water from washing spilled fuel. That's a slipping hazard on the hard and smooth concrete floors that petrol stations use. A nation with low crime would eventually be tempted to cut back on numbers of policemen. The idea of keeping a deterrent minimum number will only last so long before the bean counters step in. To cite the Ikea example would not be viewing the entire operation holistically - the other people who would otherwise have been deployed as cleaners may now be working the dishwashing machines in the back kitchen, or there may be more hands on the serving counters ensuring you get your food faster? ↡ Advertisement Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicholas 5th Gear March 23, 2013 Share March 23, 2013 As you say, they could offer to clean windows. Shell is quite particular about how their fuel hoses are hung onto the hanger. Not so sure about the rest. Also area-cleaning, or mopping up water from washing spilled fuel. That's a slipping hazard on the hard and smooth concrete floors that petrol stations use. A nation with low crime would eventually be tempted to cut back on numbers of policemen. The idea of keeping a deterrent minimum number will only last so long before the bean counters step in. To cite the Ikea example would not be viewing the entire operation holistically - the other people who would otherwise have been deployed as cleaners may now be working the dishwashing machines in the back kitchen, or there may be more hands on the serving counters ensuring you get your food faster? Well my view is different, so let's just agree to disagree. I'm quite sure there will be at least 1 attendant in case something wrong like you said mop floor from spilled fuel and etc, like what we see in some Malaysia petrol kiosks. But if we all start to pump petrol ourselves here in SG, they will surely reduce the number of attendants, which makes some of them out of jobs. As for the ikea example, how do you know that they are re-deployed to wash plates or to serve food? I don't remember having more servers after they changed the system, but I could be wrong. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mllcg 3rd Gear March 23, 2013 Share March 23, 2013 Well my view is different, so let's just agree to disagree. I'm quite sure there will be at least 1 attendant in case something wrong like you said mop floor from spilled fuel and etc, like what we see in some Malaysia petrol kiosks. But if we all start to pump petrol ourselves here in SG, they will surely reduce the number of attendants, which makes some of them out of jobs. As for the ikea example, how do you know that they are re-deployed to wash plates or to serve food? I don't remember having more servers after they changed the system, but I could be wrong. think about it. if theres no extra staff(in this case, the pump attendants), there is less overhead for shell. ikea's logic. they dont assemble means u pay less for their products Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiadaw 6th Gear March 23, 2013 Share March 23, 2013 Well my view is different, so let's just agree to disagree. I'm quite sure there will be at least 1 attendant in case something wrong like you said mop floor from spilled fuel and etc, like what we see in some Malaysia petrol kiosks. But if we all start to pump petrol ourselves here in SG, they will surely reduce the number of attendants, which makes some of them out of jobs. As for the ikea example, how do you know that they are re-deployed to wash plates or to serve food? I don't remember having more servers after they changed the system, but I could be wrong. As a first world country, we need to move out of low skill jobs, & put these people in more value added jobs. Our population exploded as we have just too many of these low skill jobs. Macrosszero reasoning is perfectly valid. If there is less litter, for sure less people will be hired, this cannot change, doesn't mean we should litter around. Just like we cannot go around spray paint wall, & to then create a job for people who paint back walls. Its a silly example but you get the drift. If there are less of these job, there will also be less of FWs needed, & our country will be less crowded. Also less people need to be hired give possibility to pay the l worker getting slightly better rates as less wages to share. Mindset must be change now if we wanted first world standard for our citizen, so even basic worker can have decent standards of living. If we still have the developing country mindset, it will means the low end of the workers will forever be poor. Obviously some jobes will be lost, this cannot be denied, but with proper structuring, we can create more value jobs by locals, & less reliances on foreigners. If we do not do not improve our efficiency in labor use, then the future of our children will be doubt. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicholas 5th Gear March 23, 2013 Share March 23, 2013 Are you guys agreeing with me or not? Lol. Maybe you missed out the words that he wrote "With the same reasoning..." To be clear, I said "Everyone pump themselves later attendants out of jobs." He implied that's not true, and said they will still have jobs, even if it's to only hang the hoses properly, wipe windows and clear spills. I quote the example of ikea saying we clear our own plates so these cleaners out of jobs. He said they still have jobs except changed to serving food or washing dishes. Mllcg said: less staffs less over head, so customers pay less. So I think he implied that yes, now cleaners no jobs so customers pay less but clear our own plates. For you, Kiadow, you said that less people will be hired if there is no litter. That's the same as no plates to clear so less people hired, right? My comprehension never fail right?? As for your first world comment... Not all low value jobs are not all taken by foreigners. Some of them are taken by our local older generation which I think is good because of our ageing population. Nevertheless we still need foreigners to build our roads, mrts and our homes. You said "with proper structuring, we can create more value jobs by locals, & less reliances on foreigners. If we do not do not improve our efficiency in labor use, then the future of our children will be doubt. " Do you have any examples on proper structuring for value added jobs? I'd like to hear what you can come up with. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiadaw 6th Gear March 24, 2013 Share March 24, 2013 (edited) Are you guys agreeing with me or not? Lol. Maybe you missed out the words that he wrote "With the same reasoning..." To be clear, I said "Everyone pump themselves later attendants out of jobs." He implied that's not true, and said they will still have jobs, even if it's to only hang the hoses properly, wipe windows and clear spills. I quote the example of ikea saying we clear our own plates so these cleaners out of jobs. He said they still have jobs except changed to serving food or washing dishes. Mllcg said: less staffs less over head, so customers pay less. So I think he implied that yes, now cleaners no jobs so customers pay less but clear our own plates. For you, Kiadow, you said that less people will be hired if there is no litter. That's the same as no plates to clear so less people hired, right? My comprehension never fail right?? As for your first world comment... Not all low value jobs are not all taken by foreigners. Some of them are taken by our local older generation which I think is good because of our ageing population. Nevertheless we still need foreigners to build our roads, mrts and our homes. You said "with proper structuring, we can create more value jobs by locals, & less reliances on foreigners. If we do not do not improve our efficiency in labor use, then the future of our children will be doubt. " Do you have any examples on proper structuring for value added jobs? I'd like to hear what you can come up with. Basically, I am saying if there is less litter, more people DIY, there will be less jobs (you do not need to think hard as I am not an having an arguement against you, just saying my view). Value are added in a job when less people or resourse are used to get same result. Think about in farming, instead of hiring 10 person to farm a plot of land, you buy a havesting machine, & one person can do the job, faster than the original 10. Of course 2 things happen, first the lone farmer can now be paid more, & 2nd, 9 person will lose their low value job. What we are getting is less people do to jobs, or maybe if we get 10 machines, & 10 person can now farm 10X the farm size. Thats value added. Maybe you think the farming example is not applicable to Singapore. I quote a reallife example. I could be wrong, but if you work as a cashier in a supermarket, you basically do nothing other than man the counter. In Germany, if you work in the supermarket, the employee have to do cashier round, take stocks, put stock on shelves, & bake breads! When you bake your own bread, you save massive cost on tranportation & extra labor. On a slow period, say mid day, they open maybe one counter, & the other stuff do packing & stock check etc. When there is too much customers, the peron at the counter will press a botton, & the other stuff will open another counter & when the crowd disappear, they will go back to do other stuff. So each stuff produce more value, hence allow for decent pay, hence living. Think back on the problem with Singapore, we keep saying we need more labor, but when we look around, a lot of labor of not doing efficient work. The reason we keep doing so is becuase labor is cheap, so we do not think about improve efficiency. The idea I am saying is that we should create a society where each labor force produce more output hence able to get better pay, & less reliance on cheap labor means our population can remain controllable size, & less need for foreign labor force. It takes time of course. In land scared Singapore, maximising productivity per working force is not an option but a must in my view. growth by value per workforce, not workforce growth. As for the elderly working as table cleaner etc, the problem is not if there are jobs for them, but we need to look into our welface system & ask, why should they still be working, & why do the younger working people not support them like other countries? If I asked some of you, if you think they have wrok hard all their lives, & help build SInagpore in one way or another, if I asked each one of you to give say 15% of your pay to them, will you do it? (in time, when you retired, the younger gen will do the same) If most answer yes, then I guess the problem can be resolved. Edited March 24, 2013 by Kiadaw Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JX83 3rd Gear March 24, 2013 Share March 24, 2013 Most of these people are either lazy farks, don't want to get their hands dirty or worse, don't know how to use the pump! Lol for me I prefer to pump myself.. scared they drip the leftover petrol on my car.. Still prefer they come and clean my windscreen but seldom see them do that nowadays.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicholas 5th Gear March 25, 2013 Share March 25, 2013 Basically, I am saying if there is less litter, more people DIY, there will be less jobs (you do not need to think hard as I am not an having an arguement against you, just saying my view). Value are added in a job when less people or resourse are used to get same result. Think about in farming, instead of hiring 10 person to farm a plot of land, you buy a havesting machine, & one person can do the job, faster than the original 10. Of course 2 things happen, first the lone farmer can now be paid more, & 2nd, 9 person will lose their low value job. What we are getting is less people do to jobs, or maybe if we get 10 machines, & 10 person can now farm 10X the farm size. Thats value added. Maybe you think the farming example is not applicable to Singapore. I quote a reallife example. I could be wrong, but if you work as a cashier in a supermarket, you basically do nothing other than man the counter. In Germany, if you work in the supermarket, the employee have to do cashier round, take stocks, put stock on shelves, & bake breads! When you bake your own bread, you save massive cost on tranportation & extra labor. On a slow period, say mid day, they open maybe one counter, & the other stuff do packing & stock check etc. When there is too much customers, the peron at the counter will press a botton, & the other stuff will open another counter & when the crowd disappear, they will go back to do other stuff. So each stuff produce more value, hence allow for decent pay, hence living. Think back on the problem with Singapore, we keep saying we need more labor, but when we look around, a lot of labor of not doing efficient work. The reason we keep doing so is becuase labor is cheap, so we do not think about improve efficiency. The idea I am saying is that we should create a society where each labor force produce more output hence able to get better pay, & less reliance on cheap labor means our population can remain controllable size, & less need for foreign labor force. It takes time of course. In land scared Singapore, maximising productivity per working force is not an option but a must in my view. growth by value per workforce, not workforce growth. As for the elderly working as table cleaner etc, the problem is not if there are jobs for them, but we need to look into our welface system & ask, why should they still be working, & why do the younger working people not support them like other countries? If I asked some of you, if you think they have wrok hard all their lives, & help build SInagpore in one way or another, if I asked each one of you to give say 15% of your pay to them, will you do it? (in time, when you retired, the younger gen will do the same) If most answer yes, then I guess the problem can be resolved. I didn't think you were arguing; can see that from your replies, and I must say that they are thoughtful and well written. I was just a bit confused earlier. Our country develops much faster than our citizens which most still have petty 3rd world mindset so I don't think employers in Singapore will pay more to 1 person to do more jobs, when they can pay the same amount to get another worker and both can be working on different things at the same time. Your idea will reduce the size of foreign labors but I doubt any employers will do that unless it's enforced by our government. My comment for the elderly to be working is to reduce foreign labors. Some are still very able and they want to work. As for 15% of our pay, it's quite implausible for low income families as we already need to give to CPF. I would rather we increase our GST to give it to the poor and elderly. To more we spend, to more we give. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gohshpat Neutral Newbie September 9, 2014 Share September 9, 2014 on this subject on pump attendants ... what are your comments on them always wanting to even the price ... like rounding it to the dollar when the automatic stop clicks? I always ask them their reasons because it is useless to do so since most petrol kiosks give discounts and it will be an odd number. I wrote in to the Caltex (i believe the others are also doing the same) mentioning this point but did not get an appropriate answer. I had an incident when the petrol over spilled out but did not have any compensation for the extra petrol as well as for paintwork Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watwheels Supersonic September 9, 2014 Share September 9, 2014 on this subject on pump attendants ... what are your comments on them always wanting to even the price ... like rounding it to the dollar when the automatic stop clicks? I always ask them their reasons because it is useless to do so since most petrol kiosks give discounts and it will be an odd number. I wrote in to the Caltex (i believe the others are also doing the same) mentioning this point but did not get an appropriate answer. I had an incident when the petrol over spilled out but did not have any compensation for the extra petrol as well as for paintwork Yeah. they always do the same. I guess old habits die hard. Anyway I always voice out to stop the unker. Just say,"unker ke yi ler" and they will stop. No need to shout lah. Just say it nicely. Ppl should learn when to voice out when needed. Dun always keep quiet. LoL... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vega Turbocharged September 9, 2014 Share September 9, 2014 I always DIY at the pump station just to avoid unnecessary misunderstanding. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
13177 Hypersonic September 9, 2014 Share September 9, 2014 on this subject on pump attendants ... what are your comments on them always wanting to even the price ... like rounding it to the dollar when the automatic stop clicks? I always ask them their reasons because it is useless to do so since most petrol kiosks give discounts and it will be an odd number. I wrote in to the Caltex (i believe the others are also doing the same) mentioning this point but did not get an appropriate answer. I had an incident when the petrol over spilled out but did not have any compensation for the extra petrol as well as for paintwork To avoid such thing from happening, best is to pump petrol ourselves lo. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baal Supersonic September 9, 2014 Share September 9, 2014 on this subject on pump attendants ... what are your comments on them always wanting to even the price ... like rounding it to the dollar when the automatic stop clicks? I always ask them their reasons because it is useless to do so since most petrol kiosks give discounts and it will be an odd number. I wrote in to the Caltex (i believe the others are also doing the same) mentioning this point but did not get an appropriate answer. I had an incident when the petrol over spilled out but did not have any compensation for the extra petrol as well as for paintwork Maybe to them it feels more proper/completed. Or maybe they no have cc... Anyway when I was an attendant in 1998, there are owners who ask for the opposite. They will instruct, make untill really full. Then there are the occaisonal white color lux car where the owner will pump himself & as an added precaution, he will fold a hanky & place as a buffer in case anything spills. Come to think of it, iirc, rounding off seems to make the job more omplete.... but as a bro pointed out, alternative would be to pump urself. No point disputing creating tension. Then later tose staffs resign, new uncle come in, cycle repeats. If the parent coy dont take a firm approach, may not be worth the effort/stress to battle this out. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gohshpat Neutral Newbie September 9, 2014 Share September 9, 2014 To avoid such thing from happening, best is to pump petrol ourselves lo. agreed and always do that ... and as for some comments above rgds not having too many pump attendants, my opinion is that a lot of Singaporeans (perhaps foreigners too) do not do want to 'dirty' their hands so they would rather the pump attendants do it..... I recalled that they tried this many, many years ago to encourage self-help but not sure of the reason/s why it did not work out.... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watwheels Supersonic September 9, 2014 Share September 9, 2014 I used to key in the figures of how much I want to pump eg. $80 or $100 some years back coz I know how much my car can take and just watch the pump goes exactly to that amount and auto stop. LoL... Now attendants very helpful, I want to DIY also difficult. I wonder the newer pumps still be able to do the same? I last time like to ask ppl how to. Coz last time I was still a student when I was driving my dad's car. I will ask the unker how to pump $20 worth of petrol. Last time petrol cheap $20 worth is quite a lot. LoL... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
13177 Hypersonic September 9, 2014 Share September 9, 2014 (edited) agreed and always do that ... and as for some comments above rgds not having too many pump attendants, my opinion is that a lot of Singaporeans (perhaps foreigners too) do not do want to 'dirty' their hands so they would rather the pump attendants do it..... I recalled that they tried this many, many years ago to encourage self-help but not sure of the reason/s why it did not work out....If during peak hours, surely not enough pump attendants lo. So best is to get used to DIY, if dont have pump attendant also can survive. Sometimes even not peak hours, some pump attendant might "act blur" cannot see your car also, and didnt come over and pump petrol for you. Or they selective select the type of cars they want to serve?! Lol. Edited September 9, 2014 by 13177 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edca 1st Gear September 11, 2014 Share September 11, 2014 I've been diy pumping myself since the day I saw how the pump attendant handle my car, I told myself to learn and do it on my own. Till now whenever I park my car and the attendant came, I'll tell them I help myself and they're more happy that I diy. Both win win 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumpmanz 5th Gear September 11, 2014 Share September 11, 2014 I've been diy pumping myself since the day I saw how the pump attendant handle my car, I told myself to learn and do it on my own. Till now whenever I park my car and the attendant came, I'll tell them I help myself and they're more happy that I diy. Both win win same same, been DIY pumping on my ride since i got it 2.5 years ago. at least you know what goes in and every drop of it! every drop is $$$ ↡ Advertisement 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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