True Story of a ex SAF regular

[Chucky2007]

Education important lah... Most people with N or O level having pretty ok pay may be holding jobs that can justify with tangible profits made for the company.. however in the cost centers of companies, how to prove that one without qualification is worthwhile?

 

For the brothers who earn more than 5k and in early or mid thirties and only having N level, when u r 40 years old, and have perhaps 20 years of experience, then the next colleague that is age 35, having 12 years of work experience, and also is as capable, and has a degree, cones along... Assuming both of u fighting for the same promotion position to a director.. if u r the boss, which will u choose to fill that position? 20 years is a long experience, but 12 years also long too.

 

Now u may earn $6k at age 33.. another degree holder with similar work capability of age 33 may also earn 6k... But when both are at age 43, the other fellow may be making 15k, and the one with the N level still making around 8k maybe...

[Freestylers09]

i am diploma,stuck in level where next pay is degree level

 

but well...20-30k worth for me in my view to take my degree and time or not?

 

my current situation is not worth

 

unless can up my pay instantly $2-$3k, if not 3 years time ,effort and money, cannot pull me to it and mayb a guarantee lol or ROI within 2 years..

 

btw for my opinions is, what is call certainty in work now? every min might be replaced etc

 

as well built more contingency plans now

Edited June 18, 2013 by Freestylers09

[Lightbringer]

As a fellow architect I fully agree with you. Once when I was inspecting a project site (it was a school A&A), I actually saw one ah tiong construction worker who didn't even know how to operate an electric drill! I called up the contractor tao eh and fark him good good. And the project keep delaying, and the material cost exceeded the projected by a LOT. I dunno why SG construction industry is so short sighted like you mentioned. Train a few very well trained workers and your cost sure go down one.

 

It's classic economics. Cheap labour = little incentive for capital investment, such as in human capital or more efficiency machinery and tools.

[Turret]

i am diploma,stuck in level where next pay is degree level

 

but well...20-30k worth for me in my view to take my degree and time or not?

 

my current situation is not worth

 

unless can up my pay instantly $2-$3k, if not 3 years time ,effort and money, cannot pull me to it and mayb a guarantee lol or ROI within 2 years..

 

btw for my opinions is, what is call certainty in work now? every min might be replaced etc

 

as well built more contingency plans now

 

 

The morale of the story is to study as young and as high as one can...

 

but still need to upgrade but gradually once a while la

[Freestylers09]

morale of my story is

 

Plan as much road as possible, even a degree,once u out and nothing to fall back,worst

 

I seen alot kana such impact,not good to take it esp if one fall from high level

 

 

[Kiadaw]

A good degree (from a good University) give you not only a good position to start work in Sinagpore, but also jobs opportunities oversea. In many first world nations, like U.K or Germany, without a degree, you cannot get the basic requirement to get a work permit. Unless you are special case, like sportmens, artiste, or venture capitalist.

[Maseratigood]

In many first world countries, electrians, carpenter etc need certification & proper training, pratical and theory. If you wanted to be in these profession (yes they are refer as profession), they provide the school for you. If you wanted to open a shop say carpentry, you need to have a 'master' level (or you have someone that have in your company), & the 'Master' level is not self claim, & must take taring, test, & recognise nationally.

 

Singapore use cheap, unskill workforce. Vast different. Of course there are craftmen that are skilled in Singapore, but its coin toss or individual ability, & not expectation.

 

The only hard pill to swallow is insprite paying much lower labor cost, & likely cheaper materials also, your renovation (not even factoring land price), cost about same (if not more) as other first world Nations, and not same quality.

Agree

 

One myth:- does a better pay makes the craftman take pride in his work and produce quality work? (regardless of the lack of formal training, some craftmen are skilled but without the cert, they aquired their skills thru on-the-job learning, when they bother to learn)

 

There are, mainly outside Singapore, self-taught craftmen who produce good work despite not getting good pay even by their local standards. Basically, are so-called craftmen working here (locals or otherwise) lack the drive and pride to produce good work?

Edited June 20, 2013 by Maseratigood

[Maseratigood]

morale of my story is

 

Plan as much road as possible, even a degree,once u out and nothing to fall back,worst

 

I seen alot kana such impact,not good to take it esp if one fall from high level

Agree

 

a degree is some kind of "safety net" although not 100% fail-proof, better than nothing though

[Maseratigood]

It's classic economics. Cheap labour = little incentive for capital investment, such as in human capital or more efficiency machinery and tools.

especially there's a near freeflow of cheapo labor.....

[Maseratigood]

Let me share something on FT. I owe a small business and yes, I have both locals and PRC workers.

 

Employing a foreigner is no more cheaper than employing a local. Foreign worker now demands pretty high basic. No more in the range of hundreds. All starting with 4 figure sum. And with all the housing allowance, levy and other fees, it can easily cost company more than S$1.6K to employ 1 production operator nowadays. So, why I still go for foreigners? Simply, I can't get local to work..... They just want to do tasks that don't have to use their brain to think. Meaning they want a job that don't have to be trained at all. Just sit down and can start doing.

 

If my personal ground experience is of any indication, then I think our govt had a very big problem on hand. We are barking the wrong tree. We keep pushing employers to go for local but even if the employer is willing, the local people is not willing.

If the root of the problem regarding local workers is the lack of motivation, or just plain laziness as per your experience, we really have a big problem!!! does this have anything to do with home education when they were young, and school teaching? or its just a worldwide problem with the current generation of workers? when people/generation grows up having a relatively smooth going life, maybe this is the result?

[Chucky2007]

Agree

 

a degree is some kind of "safety net" although not 100% fail-proof, better than nothing though

A degree is a key to ok jobs.. after that its self affort. It doesn't mean non degree holder will not succeed but its a kind of stumbling block later.. example a board of director in a listed and reputable company usually needs to have a degree, Memberbof Parliament also needs to have a degree..

 

I have not been a degree holder and I am surrounded by my 47 peers doing the same function and all of them have degrees, with about 1/3 having MBA and Masters.. All almost +- same pay, only bonuses are different according to performance. Personally don't think will lose my job anytime until 50 year old but also need to upgrade from time to time.. periodically getting industrial certs and diplomas that's relevant to work, and will be getting some sort of "masters" degree in future if those Uni accept.. just got to stay relevant but I am thinking more of self upgrading, rather than study for the sake of fear for future.

 

Personally think those with not even a diploma better not kid oneself.. just go upgrade when $$ and time allows.

[Freestylers09]

yup

 

tats why i rather build up my backup plans than take my degree now

 

at least adventurous abit...afterall my 'part time' seems alot better than my full time now..LOL, no full time work also not end of world

[Porker]

As a fellow architect I fully agree with you. Once when I was inspecting a project site (it was a school A&A), I actually saw one ah tiong construction worker who didn't even know how to operate an electric drill! I called up the contractor tao eh and fark him good good. And the project keep delaying, and the material cost exceeded the projected by a LOT. I dunno why SG construction industry is so short sighted like you mentioned. Train a few very well trained workers and your cost sure go down one.

 

The construction industry here is still very primitive compared to say Japan and Europe and even North America.

[Doraemarc]

i empathise first half of his story, abt premium plan n stuff...

 

for those bros who din know much abt progression in saf, taking a disruption to study is akin killing ur own saf career. i was army regular too. took no-pay leave to study my diploma, and returned to saf and lose all my seniority (i went study as 1SG, when i came back, my recruit alr MSG while im stuck at 1SG due to studies)

 

during my absence there were a lot of changes in the HR policy in saf. i have to "queue up" behind my juniors for CSM post, which never came. i may be unlucky to be bang by a bus while doing my cycling training (saf demand physical well-being a lot) and out of action for almost another year. so ding dong left right, seeing peers moving up e ranks while I'm still stuck, i decided to leave. sometimes i do wonder if i did not go for studies and stayed on for those years, i would be a WO now, but it's all unproven speculations.

 

but i do appreciate that i went for the studies, as after i left saf i found a job with min requirement diploma. im happier with wat i have now, so i agree with e point u have to work and fight for urself.

 

eventually, i believe TS had wanted to do a good navy career. however, he was screwed by the system, as i were. but i dunno y he was not offered e enhanced plan, where servicemen is contracted till 55, if he is perfectly healthy and fit (dats e first criteria for saf KPI now) but guess to each his own. hope he can quickly move on from the unhappiness...

 

 

 

[Little_prince]

i empathise first half of his story, abt premium plan n stuff...

 

for those bros who din know much abt progression in saf, taking a disruption to study is akin killing ur own saf career. i was army regular too. took no-pay leave to study my diploma, and returned to saf and lose all my seniority (i went study as 1SG, when i came back, my recruit alr MSG while im stuck at 1SG due to studies)

 

during my absence there were a lot of changes in the HR policy in saf. i have to "queue up" behind my juniors for CSM post, which never came. i may be unlucky to be bang by a bus while doing my cycling training (saf demand physical well-being a lot) and out of action for almost another year. so ding dong left right, seeing peers moving up e ranks while I'm still stuck, i decided to leave. sometimes i do wonder if i did not go for studies and stayed on for those years, i would be a WO now, but it's all unproven speculations.

 

but i do appreciate that i went for the studies, as after i left saf i found a job with min requirement diploma. im happier with wat i have now, so i agree with e point u have to work and fight for urself.

 

eventually, i believe TS had wanted to do a good navy career. however, he was screwed by the system, as i were. but i dunno y he was not offered e enhanced plan, where servicemen is contracted till 55, if he is perfectly healthy and fit (dats e first criteria for saf KPI now) but guess to each his own. hope he can quickly move on from the unhappiness...

 

not sure about wose.

 

officers sure got a better deal.

 

go study come back with more paper auto promote. no such things as stuck in queue.

[Hydrocarbon]

Yupp...there's always 2 sides of the story...on one hand the employer can complain that locals are lazy and not willing to work. On the other hand, sometimes it's the employer's fault for failing to properly motivate the staff and attract new staff. Because it's sipeh ez for employers to complain that staff are lazy and unmotivated and locals refuse to work for them, but it's harder for the employer to provide the right incentives and environment to attract and retain manpower. So in this case, we must look at everything first before importing FTs by the plane.

 

 

Sometimes employer keep complaining about staff not being lazy and not motivated, but they don't look in the mirror and see whether they are providing the right incentives and motivation for the employees. So, such employers, no matter who they employ, the employees will still be the same if the culture doesn't change in the company / department.

 

not sure about wose.

 

officers sure got a better deal.

 

go study come back with more paper auto promote. no such things as stuck in queue.

 

 

Yup, for officers, paper is the thing to promotion. If two officers go in same time, the one with degree promote faster and have higher pay than the diploma one. Even if both do same job.

[Atonchia]

 

Sometimes employer keep complaining about staff not being lazy and not motivated, but they don't look in the mirror and see whether they are providing the right incentives and motivation for the employees. So, such employers, no matter who they employ, the employees will still be the same if the culture doesn't change in the company / department.

 

 

 

 

Yup, for officers, paper is the thing to promotion. If two officers go in same time, the one with degree promote faster and have higher pay than the diploma one. Even if both do same job.

 

Fully agree, employers should design the jobs scope to be challenging, kpi should be achievable. And the key factor to ensure employee to be motivated is ........

 

The employer.

[Maseratigood]

A degree is a key to ok jobs.. after that its self affort. It doesn't mean non degree holder will not succeed but its a kind of stumbling block later.. example a board of director in a listed and reputable company usually needs to have a degree, Memberbof Parliament also needs to have a degree..

 

I have not been a degree holder and I am surrounded by my 47 peers doing the same function and all of them have degrees, with about 1/3 having MBA and Masters.. All almost +- same pay, only bonuses are different according to performance. Personally don't think will lose my job anytime until 50 year old but also need to upgrade from time to time.. periodically getting industrial certs and diplomas that's relevant to work, and will be getting some sort of "masters" degree in future if those Uni accept.. just got to stay relevant but I am thinking more of self upgrading, rather than study for the sake of fear for future.

 

Personally think those with not even a diploma better not kid oneself.. just go upgrade when $$ and time allows.

Also, a degree may be s stumbling block for some people if they feel some jobs are too low for them who hold a degree. This limits and narrows their choices in some cases as these too-low jobs may lead them to future jobs which improve their career.

Edited June 21, 2013 by Maseratigood