Three Kingdoms Discussion: Was Zhuge Liang Wrong to Launch 5 Northern Expeditions on Wei?

[Beregond]

53 minutes ago, wangxiaodi said:

Many historians and based on historical records steered to the facts that cao cao initially was the few people who truly want to serve and restore han dynasty. He was the only one dared to attack dong zhuo 's army and got defeated, while the other warlords just sit and see. 

There were no records to state that he treated the han emperor badly, but the otherwise came From the shu-influenced source. Maybe in his later years, he grew more Ambitious and was tempted by greed and titles.. That drove him to become more evil. 

Liu bei to me, he might be as bad as his son liu shan. He never really won any major battle and was constantly losing battle and running away from his enemies for most part of his life before the chi bi. 

Even when he got yi, jing and hanzhong, he lose it to a younger and relatively unknown lu xun... 

 

liu bei got the surname. and he is the direct relative to the han dynasty. i think those days these play a very big part.

alot of ppl loyal to han will serve him willing regradless of his ability

[Angcheek]

1 hour ago, Daniu82 said:

Maybe it will upset the balance

Yes , that is 1 of the reason  . Not that he was afraid of Shu . He just want something to tickle Wu , knowing Wu and Shu had conflict interest. 

And for Cao Cao , personally , to keep his military power , no point for him to finish off his card.  

LB was also part of the Royal family ... If CC killed off LB , it will be seen as disrespect to the royal , easily will trigger his opponents using this reason against him .  

 

[wangxiaodi]

15 hours ago, Angcheek said:

Yes , that is 1 of the reason  . Not that he was afraid of Shu . He just want something to tickle Wu , knowing Wu and Shu had conflict interest. 

And for Cao Cao , personally , to keep his military power , no point for him to finish off his card.  

LB was also part of the Royal family ... If CC killed off LB , it will be seen as disrespect to the royal , easily will trigger his opponents using this reason against him .  

 

Towards the later stage of Cao Cao's life, especially after the great defeat at chibi, he turned his focus on in-building. Focusing on agriculture, and giving lands to peasants. This peasants help grow crops for government and certain percentage was to be given to government. He also implemented other reforms (which i cannot remember). In the 2010 3 Kingdom drama (from China), it was Sima Yi who told Cao Cao that it is heaven's will that it is not time to unite and take the entire china yet. This might be fictional. But after the defeat at Chibi, Cao's progress slowed down and enjoyed less success in military expeditions except for kicking out Ma Chao from Xi Liang area.

Maybe towards his later years, he grew weary and was older, so his ambition also diminished. And turned towards other things like title, status, fame, women and power struggles within. Maybe what you mentioned also correct. Since it is not straight forward to oust both Liu and Sun entirely, and he knew it would not be during his life time, he slowed down and rather just be in status quo. 

It was only when Cao Pi took over, that Wei then went on to have small battle with Wu. Other than that, it was ZGL who kept attacking Wei at the west side.

 

[Maxus-MIFA9]

17 hours ago, Angcheek said:

 

are you a History student ?  Start such a difficult topic 

You haven't get your P6 PSLE (2019) results, so its very difficult for you to under-stand ....

[Maxus-MIFA9]

16 hours ago, Angcheek said:

There are many reasons why CaoCao didnt kill off SHU .... ☺️ even when they got the chance. 

 

So cheam.....

You said you never Chinese study history ...

 

[L23]

20 hours ago, wangxiaodi said:

Many historians and based on historical records steered to the facts that cao cao initially was the few people who truly want to serve and restore han dynasty. He was the only one dared to attack dong zhuo 's army and got defeated, while the other warlords just sit and see. 

There were no records to state that he treated the han emperor badly, but the otherwise came From the shu-influenced source. Maybe in his later years, he grew more Ambitious and was tempted by greed and titles.. That drove him to become more evil. 

Liu bei to me, he might be as bad as his son liu shan. He never really won any major battle and was constantly losing battle and running away from his enemies for most part of his life before the chi bi. 

Even when he got yi, jing and hanzhong, he lose it to a younger and relatively unknown lu xun... 

 

 

Shu would have long gone if not for all their general and adviser.

 

[wangxiaodi]

2 hours ago, L23 said:

 

Shu would have long gone if not for all their general and adviser.

 

After Zgl died in 234ad. There were left jiang wan, fei yi, jiang wei, later xiahou ba and maybe liao hua.. So not alot. And not the best of the lot. 

[Robin]

Shu didnt have capable guys after ZGL. very hard for disciples to surpass the teacher... natural regression 

[Angcheek]

6 hours ago, wangxiaodi said:

Towards the later stage of Cao Cao's life, especially after the great defeat at chibi, he turned his focus on in-building. Focusing on agriculture, and giving lands to peasants. This peasants help grow crops for government and certain percentage was to be given to government. He also implemented other reforms (which i cannot remember). In the 2010 3 Kingdom drama (from China), it was Sima Yi who told Cao Cao that it is heaven's will that it is not time to unite and take the entire china yet. This might be fictional. But after the defeat at Chibi, Cao's progress slowed down and enjoyed less success in military expeditions except for kicking out Ma Chao from Xi Liang area.

Maybe towards his later years, he grew weary and was older, so his ambition also diminished. And turned towards other things like title, status, fame, women and power struggles within. Maybe what you mentioned also correct. Since it is not straight forward to oust both Liu and Sun entirely, and he knew it would not be during his life time, he slowed down and rather just be in status quo. 

It was only when Cao Pi took over, that Wei then went on to have small battle with Wu. Other than that, it was ZGL who kept attacking Wei at the west side.

 

ChiBi was a big failure ... so one can imagine how he will kana left rite up down when he went back.  Lack of people , lack of food , lack of funds , 

CC wont be able to gear up another big campaign . So expected he would focus on internal growth. 

At his late years , his illness (headache) gave him much difficulty . And also many were eyeing to take over his power. No point go far far away to 

fight a war when many are eyeing on your position at home . 😁

At ZGL late year ,  alot of mistake in battle caused him big time ... why mistake , who caused it , frankly I think it is hard to tell at present time. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Angcheek]

6 hours ago, Picnic06-Biante15 said:

You haven't get your P6 PSLE (2019) results, so its very difficult for you to under-stand ....

Guess who was one of the 四大美人 during that period 

 

[Maxus-MIFA9]

1 hour ago, Angcheek said:

Guess who was one of the 四大美人 during that period 

 

I know one period thats come once every 28days .... 

You will  &  if your Er-nai inform you that she missed it .... 

[Angcheek]

 

This series gave a more historical info 

 

[Xeryh]

The battles at chi bi and yuzhang/guangling showed that a significantly weaker force can still overcome a much stronger one thru guile and terrain (and fire!) Zhou yu in 2 battles pretty much burnt out 5-10 years worth of troops, and Cc on returning had to pacify the hearts/minds of dissenters while rebuilding.

 

the division into 3 states, with shu and wu allying also means if wei tries to attack one, the other would bite them in the ass. Wei had to wait till one or both are really weak before attempting to consume one.

[wangxiaodi]

19 hours ago, Angcheek said:

ChiBi was a big failure ... so one can imagine how he will kana left rite up down when he went back.  Lack of people , lack of food , lack of funds , 

CC wont be able to gear up another big campaign . So expected he would focus on internal growth. 

At his late years , his illness (headache) gave him much difficulty . And also many were eyeing to take over his power. No point go far far away to 

fight a war when many are eyeing on your position at home . 😁

At ZGL late year ,  alot of mistake in battle caused him big time ... why mistake , who caused it , frankly I think it is hard to tell at present time. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It is true that there were lotsa trouble at the back of CC regime and Han loyalist. That is also why his later military campaign were never long lasting and all touch and go as he fear there are major coup at his own back yard. 

Then after CC died and Cao Pi took over, by then the 3 kingdoms already set in, and it was never easy to really engage in total war with either sides.

For ZGL, to be honest, i have seen and encounter people who are like him in my real life. In business world. People who have vision, and highly driven, yet failed badly at execution due to impracticality. Sometime, it is true that business and running a country we have to take risk, but most time we have to be practical and realistic. Not overly idealistic and hope things will go our ways.

So ZGL reminded me of people whom i knew and came across in my own personal life. They are charismatic, have vision and willing to take risk, but their life and businesses are really run in a very scary manner. 

Anyway, just personal opinion.

[wangxiaodi]

17 hours ago, Angcheek said:

 

This series gave a more historical info 

 

You can go youtube search for 易中天 and 袁腾飞. These 2 had their own talk show about the entire series of 3 kingdoms. Yan Teng Fei even talked about the chun and qiu era and warring states.

You can learn more too from there.

[Daniu82]

2 hours ago, wangxiaodi said:

You can go youtube search for 易中天 and 袁腾飞. These 2 had their own talk show about the entire series of 3 kingdoms. Yan Teng Fei even talked about the chun and qiu era and warring states.

You can learn more too from there.

易中天  talk show quite nice, I watched it quite long time ago. His perspective is quite interesting. Nvr heard of the other guy you mentioned, got time then find and watch his talk show. 

[wangxiaodi]

On 10/24/2019 at 4:32 PM, Daniu82 said:

易中天  talk show quite nice, I watched it quite long time ago. His perspective is quite interesting. Nvr heard of the other guy you mentioned, got time then find and watch his talk show. 

The other guy is a Chinese history teacher. And he also knew alot of history knowledge. He is much younger than yi zhong tian. But yi zhong tian analysize from many source of records and come out with his own conclusion. Very enriching. Of course, whether they are both babbling nonsense.. We don't know.. At least u get to hear from a more logical, factual and not those novel, dramatised version. 

[wangxiaodi]

On 10/23/2019 at 8:45 PM, Xeryh said:

The battles at chi bi and yuzhang/guangling showed that a significantly weaker force can still overcome a much stronger one thru guile and terrain (and fire!) Zhou yu in 2 battles pretty much burnt out 5-10 years worth of troops, and Cc on returning had to pacify the hearts/minds of dissenters while rebuilding.

 

the division into 3 states, with shu and wu allying also means if wei tries to attack one, the other would bite them in the ass. Wei had to wait till one or both are really weak before attempting to consume one.

Cao cao rumored to have 400k army at Chibi but was not really true. At most was maybe ard 200k to 250k. His northern troop plus those at jing Zhou who surrendered. And of the 200 to 250k, maybe only max 100k were naval forces. And Zhou yu naval force, though might be smaller at 30 to 40k max, plus some land force and handful from jiang xia liu qi.. And liu bei, should be able to pwn them.